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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Freewill vs. Determinism: ....???
    #1444883 - 04/10/03 12:14 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

So? freewill vs. determinism?

So we understand the physical universe through ?laws? that science has found to be accurate in predicting future physical events- these laws provide models that tell us that certain events give rise to other events- one thing causes another. At the same time, you and I assume that we have freewill. Maybe not intellectually, but at a level of subjective experience, we assume that we have free control over our actions- how can we not? So the unanswered question is, are humans somehow exempt from the causal chain that we have come to rely on to predict the rest of the universe? Are we that special?

I have found no way to reconcile this discrepancy (and neither have the majority of philosophers as far as I know). I have to think that it is going to take a paradigm shift of a huge magnitude to account for it. But how does everyone else account for it? Is freewill just a necessary delusion, have we somehow transcended determinism, or something else?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineMitchnast
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1444891 - 04/10/03 12:17 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

night vs day
up vs down.
yin vs yang.

one does not exist withough the other. trite?
think about it :smile:


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Mitchnast]
    #1444903 - 04/10/03 12:20 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

So two sides of the same coin? ...What is the coin?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1444948 - 04/10/03 12:35 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

buttonion writes:

So the unanswered question is, are humans somehow exempt from the causal chain that we have come to rely on to predict the rest of the universe? Are we that special?

The causal chain holds only for inanimate matter -- i.e. those entities to which the laws of entropy apply. Living entities of a certain complexity have free will -- it is not restricted to humans. Does a prion or a virus have free will? No. Does a cat? certainly. Does an amoeba? Maybe.

I have found no way to reconcile this discrepancy (and neither have the majority of philosophers as far as I know).

To the best of my knowledge, the only philosophers who have reconciled this discrepancy are those who propose that although volition exists in this universe (as an attribute of living entities which exist in the universe), and it acts on other entities of this universe (through its agents; the afore-mentioned living entities), it is not of this universe -- or at least not entirely.

pinky


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1444992 - 04/10/03 12:47 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

But one could argue that the ?freewill? that we observe in cats and humans is the result of a highly adaptive mechanism (the nervous system) which modifies its behavior in response to a variety of complex stimuli to maximize its ability to achieve certain goals. Is this freewill?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


Edited by buttonion (04/10/03 12:56 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1445150 - 04/10/03 01:19 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

i once reached this cold conclusion about life, and i couldn't shake it. it is very sound. disregarding spiritual input or the suppose "beyond", our brain and its thoughts can be mathematically derived, through the atoms and their reactions.

i would sometimes feel like laying down somewhere and not moving. not moving for anything. if this world is based on determinism, then i have no choice in lying here and doing nothing. if i go outside and kill someone, i couldn't have changed that either. the thought of having no free will, releases a sense of freedom in me that makes me enjoy life in a different way. i don't have to worry about trying to live up to something in a world where nothing exists. imagine the peace of mind...not having to form "who" you are. you just are. no wrong, no right.... nothing.


Edited by LoOnEr (04/10/03 01:20 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1445185 - 04/10/03 01:25 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Cats and other animals are on one side of a huge divide and we as humans are on the other.

We have conceptual abstraction which culminates in true conciousness. Not only are we self-aware but we alone can think about thinking.

Hence, we are outside the restrictive paradigm as Pinky noted.


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1445201 - 04/10/03 01:31 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

We have conceptual abstraction which culminates in true conciousness. Not only are we self-aware but we alone can think about thinking.

yes, we are far superior to animals, but couldn't that be due to our larger and more complex brain? our idea of who we are comes from the interaction of our thoughts in our brains. these thoughts and actions are made up of atoms. we may "think" we can pick where to go out on friday night, but do we really have the power to defy mathematical and chemical law when it comes to the interaction of subatomic particles?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1445202 - 04/10/03 01:32 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I consider myself a soft determinist. I believe we have free will over rather trivial matters, such as whether or not to pick up a coin we see on the sidewalk, but that our overall destinies are mapped out at least to a certain degree.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1445252 - 04/10/03 01:41 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

A larger and more complex brain may be necessary for a mind but it may not be a sufficient cause for one.

Do we know that a complex brain has to have a consciousness?

No, we do not.

If all we are is chemicals then there is no free will.

But consciousness isn't made of chemicals, now is it?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1445434 - 04/10/03 02:28 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

buttonion writes:

But one could argue that the ?freewill? that we observe in cats and humans is the result of a highly adaptive mechanism (the nervous system) which modifies its behavior in response to a variety of complex stimuli to maximize its ability to achieve certain goals.

One could argue that, but not convincingly. Living entities of a certain complexity exhibit volitional behavior. The fact that such an entity has a complex adaptive mechanism (constructed of tiny particles, each of which obey the laws of physics) doesn't alter the fact that it is not the mechanism which calls the shots, it is the consciousness.

Purple monkey dishwasher.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1445438 - 04/10/03 02:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

But consciousness isn't made of chemicals, now is it?

no it isn't. it is the RESULT of the chemicals. a million neurons acting out billions of chemical reactions is all very measurable, and predictable. if these same actions are what defines our consciousness, then they too can be measurable and predictable. if a conscious is not acted on by some outside, "unnatural" force, than our very existence is based on an intricate code of relating a slice of your consciousness to a certain chemical reaction that takes place in your brain.


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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1445889 - 04/10/03 09:26 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)


"Millions of neurons acting out billions of chemical reactions is all very measurable, and predictable." Is that so? If so then these processes should correlate to measurable, predictable human behavior. Who has a model for this? If someone has such a model has it been accurate 100% of the time? If so I've never come across it, it would definitely change my view of things. I side with Freewill because every theory of Determinism concerning human consciousness or human behavior is not 100% accurate or even close. If I'm wrong please enlighten me.


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"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1445977 - 04/10/03 10:34 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

of course we don't have it mapped out yet... we are just beginning to understand our consciousness. i am going by the premise that our conscious is made up of the interactions of chemicals in our brain, if that is true, which is the only basis we have for life, then our brains should theoretically be able to be derived mathematically.


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OfflineWaldarbeiter
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1446157 - 04/10/03 12:14 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I believe that at the beginning of the universe, time was not there, as nothing moved, evrything was stable.
So was everything already invented (their idea at least).
The next step was that IT (which was just there like anything else) created the matter, which had to follow rules.....that was the beginning of time.
Nowadays I believe that our bodies, which have to follow that rules, are connected with the big "IT".

So if you think about it,  free will and Determinism both are existent .
The free will has created the rules, which lead to determinism.

So we are free, but the future has already been determined by IT (of which everyone of us is part of).

hope you understand what I mean.Although my theory might be wrong (which it is more likely than not) I believe it anyway... that's my way :wink:   


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OfflineWaldarbeiter
can you eat it?

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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1446172 - 04/10/03 12:20 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

should theoretically be able to be derived mathematically.

theoretically, yes. But that stuff has to do with electricity in our brain cells.
The problem is that you can't tell the exact position of an electron at a certain point of time; all you can tell is the region where the electron is probably located...


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1446304 - 04/10/03 01:19 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Freewill? Me no think so.

Are you free to prefer chocolate over strawberry; the opposite sex to the same sex? Did you choose the time and and place of your birth? Your physique, sex, nationality, your talents?

Can one "choose" to be a musician or a mathematician, if that is not their prediliction?

Most people meet their mate in school or work or other area of close proximity. This may consist of a dozen to a few hundred people which is quite a narrow "choice".

I frequently "push people's buttons" here on the shroomery and they respond in a Pavlovian manner with anger. Is this reflex a choice?

Over 90% of the world's population "chooses" the religion of their parents.

Other than suicide or the obviousness of slow self-poisoning; how many of us choose the time and means of our death?





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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Swami]
    #1446334 - 04/10/03 01:32 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Swami writes:

Are you free to prefer chocolate over strawberry; the opposite sex to the same sex? Did you choose the time and and place of your birth? Your physique, sex, nationality, your talents?

Oh, please. Free will is not equivalent to omnipotence. Of course one cannot choose the time and place of one's birth. That doesn't change the fact that one has free will. I am surprised to see you of all people try to slide that one by us.

Can one "choose" to be a musician or a mathematician, if that is not their prediliction?

Of course one can. There is no guarantee that one will be a competent mathematician or musician, however -- as the pop charts demonstrate so amply.

Most people meet their mate in school or work or other area of close proximity. This may consist of a dozen to a few hundred people which is quite a narrow "choice".

That doesn't change the fact that they are free to mate or not.

I frequently "push people's buttons" here on the shroomery and they respond in a Pavlovian manner with anger. Is this reflex a choice?

The fact that some people choose to indulge in semi-reflexive behavior rather than expend the necessary effort to exhibit self-restraint does not alter the fact that they can exhibit it.

Over 90% of the world's population "chooses" the religion of their parents.

And 100% of the world's population "chooses" the mother tongue of those who raise them during their early years. What's your point?

Other than suicide or the obviousness of slow self-poisoning; how many of us choose the time and means of our death?

The fact that one can suicide demonstrates quite clearly that free will exists. If one eliminates suicide, then once again your argument merely invalidates the concept of omnipotence, not free will.

A disappointingly sloppy effort, Swami -- I can tell your heart's not really in it. Having difficulties at home? Anything we can do to help?

pinky


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
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Loc: Kansas
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1446413 - 04/10/03 01:54 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

One could argue that, but not convincingly. Living entities of a certain complexity exhibit volitional behavior. The fact that such an entity has a complex adaptive mechanism (constructed of tiny particles, each of which obey the laws of physics) doesn't alter the fact that it is not the mechanism which calls the shots, it is the consciousness.




Please illustrate to me how "the consciousness" and not the mechanism calls the shots- How do you know that consciousness is not an epiphenomemon? i.e., that all mental phenomena are entirely caused by physical phenomena in the central nervous system, and themselves have no effects, mental or physical.



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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Waldarbeiter]
    #1446438 - 04/10/03 02:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The problem is that you can't tell the exact position of an electron at a certain point of time; all you can tell is the region where the electron is probably located...

i'm not claiming there is a formula out there that can describe events in your mind. i'm saying those electrons HAVE a mathematical background, along with the reactions that take place between them and other molecules. there is no "free will" when it comes to chemical reactions, electricity, and other laws of nature, all of which make our brain.

i.e
you are deciding if you want to go to the mall or not. this "thinking" leads to a series of reactions in your brain, that concludes you are not going to the mall. you may think you consciously made that decision, but everything that went on in your head was a series of reactions that can all be measured. does your "free will" act on your brain in a way that it defies science? if not you have NO free will.




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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1446441 - 04/10/03 02:04 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cats and other animals are on one side of a huge divide and we as humans are on the other.

We have conceptual abstraction which culminates in true conciousness. Not only are we self-aware but we alone can think about thinking.

Hence, we are outside the restrictive paradigm as Pinky noted.




I agree that the highly adaptive brain and the ability for meta-cognition in particular makes us qualitatively unique in the animal world, but I don't see how all of this activitiy is obviously not part of the causal chain. It boils down to how do you deal with the epiphenomenalists' stance- see my response to pinksharkmark.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1446468 - 04/10/03 02:12 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I am surprised to see you of all people try to slide that one by us.
*Gets on bended knee* Please, please, just this one time, let me slide one by and I will never ask again.

A disappointingly sloppy effort, Swami -- I can tell your heart's not really in it. Having difficulties at home? Anything we can do to help?
The Market was down and I slept poorly last night. I "chose" to write a witty and insightful post, but alas, it was out of my hands. :wink:

 


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1446535 - 04/10/03 02:28 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

buttonion:

Please illustrate to me how "the consciousness" and not the mechanism calls the shots-

Purple monkey dishwasher. Hablas espa?ol? 440 or fight. 3x+4y = 313.448.

I have just demonstrated ostensively that free will exists. It was my consciousness that directed my fingers to perform specific actions on specific keys to produce a specific pattern of my choosing.

It was neither predestination nor randomness that created the above pattern. My consciousness chose volitionally what words to type, what language to use, when to switch from alpha to numeric, whether to emphasize certain parts with color or italics or boldface or nothing at all, which parts were to be emphasized, whether the phrases were profound or whimsical, etc.

My nervous system didn't dictate which symbols my consciousness chose to select to illustrate my point, although it was an essential component of the neurophysiological mechanism by which my choices were recorded.

Will you argue that my choices were pre-determined? How can you convincingly argue such an untenable position when at any moment I can again demonstrate ostensively piranha nib-nob jelly doughnut? I can do so at will. I can type gibberish, non-sequiturs, or reasoned responses at will.

Clearly, this detour from normal english language communication is not random, either -- if it were it would look like 5kxug]ne h,mas6v1 55 fofn05fb hj spp pgq5 instead of purple monkey dishwasher.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Swami]
    #1446557 - 04/10/03 02:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Swami writes:

Please, please, just this one time, let me slide one by and I will never ask again.

Well.... okay. Everyone is entitled to the occasional lapse, I suppose. But I'm gonna hold you to your promise, mind.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1446814 - 04/10/03 03:32 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I enjoy your rebuttals immensely. They save me the time and effect of posting my thoughts.

Thank you for your contributions.

buttonion: refer to Pinky

Cheers,


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1447173 - 04/10/03 05:24 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

(Whoops, this is in reply to pinksharkmark)

Well, I am not arguing whether you believe many of your actions are done out of your own freewill, and that is all you have succeeded in demonstrating here. So you have generated some symbols in a way you perceive as spontaneous, and I cannot explain why or how you did it with any existing neurological model- therefore these actions are outside of the causal chain? It is still possible that all of this behavior could be accounted for by physical laws, and we undoubtedly have a lot more to discover in the field of neuroscience.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


Edited by buttonion (04/10/03 05:34 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1447437 - 04/10/03 06:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Determinism is boring and for the insecure...
*yawn*

that is all... move along.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1447571 - 04/10/03 07:34 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

ok, everyone scatter, he has spoken !!!


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OfflineKaneda
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1447600 - 04/10/03 07:50 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Determinism is boring and for the insecure...
*yawn*




So is gravity. It's still there though.


Edited by Kaneda (04/10/03 07:51 PM)


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1447823 - 04/10/03 09:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Determinism is boring and for the insecure...
*yawn*

that is all... move along.





I kind of agree, in that it appears to be an unsolvable problem, and so why keep asking the question. But should we just sweep it under the carpet and pretend that it's not there? There's got to be someway of addressing it... Alan Watts (and I'm sure others) said that when we are faced with these unsolvable problems of philosophy, it is usually because we are asking the wrong question- that the premise of our question is wrong. I think the answer lies along these lines, but I'm not quite sure how.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1448567 - 04/11/03 02:08 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

accepting determinism....

how would you react if you knew it was true? would you continue to give into your false free will....(not that you have a choice)?



Edited by LoOnEr (04/11/03 02:19 AM)


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OfflineKathaneal
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Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1448571 - 04/11/03 02:10 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"So? freewill vs. determinism?"

The usual problem I see with these discussions is there is no applicable way to experiment with the ideas and free thinking on this matter.

Apps: numerology and astrology would be considered determinstic *applied* theories. The clue on freewill vs. not is just key clicks away if you just do a simple search on modern numerology.

I don't feel like doing a discourse on numer but... Anyone interested on a free online course can go to www.real-yoga.com -> subscribe to yantra. Claimed as the oldest numer system before Pythagoras, Kaballah, and Chaldean.

Anyone interested on Modern Numer free online course can go to asklana.com

Excellent info and software: www.decoz.com

Anyone want a demonstration on the theory (I have software I like to try), ask me. *smirk

--K








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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Kathaneal]
    #1449106 - 04/11/03 10:18 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The usual problem I see with these discussions is there is no applicable way to experiment with the ideas and free thinking on this matter.

What follows may only cover a narrow range of choices, but no one can deny that we all have addictions. For the sake of this discussion, I will define an addiction as the making of a choice counter to what we intellectually know to be healthy. If we have free will and are not the sum of our history, chemistry, environment and current input state, then why would anyone freely and repeatedly choose a destructive action?

Hint: merely naming something does not explain it. "Of course I have no choice - it's an addiction!"


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Swami]
    #1449253 - 04/11/03 11:38 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Well said.

[goes to make more popcorn]


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Swami]
    #1449470 - 04/11/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Swami writes:

If we have free will and are not the sum of our history, chemistry, environment and current input state, then why would anyone freely and repeatedly choose a destructive action?

Because many of the addicted choose to trade temporary relief for long term gain. This does not change the fact that it is a choice. The fact that one possesses free will is no guarantee that every single choice one makes is of longterm benefit to one's self.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1449502 - 04/11/03 01:35 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

buttonion writes:

Well, I am not arguing whether you believe many of your actions are done out of your own freewill, and that is all you have succeeded in demonstrating here.

Not only do I believe it, but so do you. When is the last time that you decided to rub your nose but found yourself unable to? Were you forced to respond to my post? Of course not. You chose to respond.

You know from your own experience that you do in fact possess free will, but for some reason unbeknownst to me, you choose to question it, not even realizing that the act of writing a post challenging it is the best possible demonstration of the fact that it exists.

Is it possible that you were "destined" to challenge its existence? Is it possible that every facet of your thoughts and your actions are scripted in advance? Yes, it is just barely possible, but it is improbable to the nth degree.

More to the point, if our conviction that we have free will is illusory, it is such an incredibly well-crafted illusion that in practical terms the "illusion" is reality, and as a practical philosophy by which to run one's life, there is absolutely zero downside to accepting it. It is the most accurate working hypothesis of any of the philosophical principles by which humans attempt to further their existence.

There are literally billions of ways to demonstrate ostensively that free will exists, and exactly zero ways to demonstrate that it does not.

My advice is to worry about the big philosophical questions that actually show some ambiguity and require a bit of thought to resolve, rather than nitpick something that any six year old knows through his own experimentation -- that he decides what he will do.

pinky


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1449506 - 04/11/03 01:36 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Looner, man you have been saying thoughts that i've been unable to put into words for a while. Ever since i took this class on braiin and behavior in school. Anyway.. i pretty much agree with what you were saying. And i agree that i have developed much more peace of mind since then too.


--------------------
:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1449572 - 04/11/03 01:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Free will is an illusion.  We all like to think we have it, yet we don't.  Everything we do is a result of the particular society we are a part of at a particular place in time.  We all have collars around our necks with leashes that are attached to the great master of society.  We are under its control whether we think so or not.

:crazy:

-RebelSteve


--------------------
Namaste.


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1449594 - 04/11/03 02:04 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The human experience as I know it would not be possible. Whether or not there is a way of going on in the face of determinism is an interesting question. I would guess that it is not possible to "fully" embrace it- even if we intellectually know everything is determined, we must act on the assumption that we have free choice- a necessary delusion. Or I guess we could attempt to eliminate self-awareness and evolve into an ant colony.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #1449615 - 04/11/03 02:08 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If one accepts determinism, have they not just exercised free-will? Are they unable to choose for themselves what they believe in?


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1449766 - 04/11/03 02:48 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)


Quote:

Yes, it is just barely possible, but it is improbable to the nth degree.




Thank you. At least I know now that you are not arguing that freewill is a logical necessity. But I don?t agree with your probability assessment. Devil?s advocate says, We currently use a physical causal model to explain the universe? with the exception of human behavior. Isn?t it the more parsimonious view that we are also explainable in this way, rather than proposing some metaphysical notion of freewill?


Quote:

My advice is to worry about the big philosophical questions that actually show some ambiguity and require a bit of thought to resolve, rather than nitpick something that any six year old knows through his own experimentation -- that he decides what he will do.




Yeah, I?m sorry? I?m a little slow for thinking about stuffs? my mommy tells me I?m smart though?

This kind of reminds me of the whole idealism vs. realism thing- because we must assume objects in our logical reasoning system, there is no way to use that same system to support or deny the existence of objects. Similarly, as of our current agreed-upon experience of being human, we must assume that we have free choice- it is axiomatic in our experience (Thank you Godel!). And so we arrive at pragmatism- it is useful to act on the assumption, so it must be the right assumption. But although I agree it is useful, there is still a compelling alternative that has not been (and maybe cannot be) ruled out.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1449979 - 04/11/03 03:55 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Swami writes:

If we have free will and are not the sum of our history, chemistry, environment and current input state, then why would anyone freely and repeatedly choose a destructive action?


Because many of the addicted choose to trade temporary relief for long term gain. This does not change the fact that it is a choice.

Now Pinky will demonstrate free will for all of us here by publicly declaring his most powerful addiction and then refraining from such activity for three months.

I will accept his word on this.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineKathaneal
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Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Swami]
    #1450235 - 04/11/03 05:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The usual problem I see with these discussions is there is no applicable way to experiment with the ideas and free thinking on this matter.

What follows may only cover a narrow range of choices, but no one can deny that we all have addictions. For the sake of this discussion, I will define an addiction as the making of a choice counter to what we intellectually know to be healthy. If we have free will and are not the sum of our history, chemistry, environment and current input state, then why would anyone freely and repeatedly choose a destructive action?

Hint: merely naming something does not explain it. "
 




What briefly presented was a tangent, which I gave direct clues on the overall scope of determinism first, not the microscopic.  It?s a good idea to understand and realize the important foundations before delving into the complexities.  I find Modern nUmer does provide that to explain, reasonably, this, for example: ?Of course I have no choice - it's an addiction!"
?

One way Modern Numer can, generally at first,  define this:

Karmic Debt Numbers.  These are very special numbers because it is QUITE a unique challenge for the person.  This number is known as 14/5. 
A person?s full name with a 14/5 in the Heart?s Desire or Expression number (known as a core numbers) will have to face the addictions:


The 14 Karmic Debt arises from previous lifetimes during which human freedom has been abused. Those with a 14 Karmic Debt are forced to adapt to ever-changing circumstances and unexpected occurrences. There is an acute danger of falling victim to abuse of drugs, alcohol, and overindulgence in sensual pleasures, such as food and sex. You must put the reins on yourself. Modesty in all affairs is crucial to overcoming this Karmic Debt.

Also important is the need to maintain order in life, and to establish one's own emotional stability. you must also be willing to adapt to the unexpected occurrences of life, all the while maintaining your focus on your goals and dreams. Flexibility and adaptability are at the very core of this struggle.
Orderliness in one's immediate environment is crucial to maintaining clarity and focus. Mental and emotional stability must be attained in order to avoid being thrown about by the changing fortunes in the external environment.

But the key to the 14 Karmic Debt is commitment. Life will resemble a roller coaster ride, but it will always travel in the right direction if one's heart is set on what is true and good. Set yourself a high goal, maintain order wherever possible in your life, avoid excessive sensory indulgence, and maintain faith. Above all, do not give up on your dreams and goals.
Those with the 14 Karmic Debt will experience life to the fullest, and as long as they maintain a high dream, they will achieve success and great spiritual development.
excerpt from Decoz.com

How do I know this is true?  My full name has it. I have experienced a gamut of addictive impulses for many years. My life is the perfect poster boy for bi-polarmania.  :smile: Overpowering me.  I couldn?t understand why I was like this. My intellect knew better, but the instinct had the control. IT was driving me like a dog until near the end of last year, through Numer, I found the source.  Imagine my surprise.  I?m still in disbelief.

Now, like you said we have our own poisons.  Its a matter of extremity that sets apart the impulsiveness.  Mine was extreme with broad objects and subjects to energize this instinct.  I care not to further explain what those are.  Use your imagination.  The excerpt alluded to what they were.
 


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Kathaneal]
    #1452214 - 04/12/03 01:14 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

My dogma ran over your kar... wait.... no... I mean my dog is something... hmm... I mean you hafta think for yourself and karma and stuff is like uh...


My cat's breath smells like cat food.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1452238 - 04/12/03 01:22 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Godel?

Did you think I had forgotten? I didn't. We will deal with him later.

[adds salt and butter to popcorn]


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Invisiblebuttonion
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1452685 - 04/12/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

No prob. It's actually kind of comforting- I won't have to feel guilty if I take half a year to respond to your post. he, he  :wink:

...take your time 


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineJuR
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1456763 - 04/14/03 12:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I see it like this.
from the seat of your consciousness you are doing the driving.
You do the stuff that you think will give you the best results in the future.
You do so on limited information.
This information also makes you aware off other possibilities.
You can see (human mind can predict on limited information) the future and plan your actions.

But you always choose the option that has the best results.

Let's drive from a cliff or have pizza.
Everybody chooses pizza. But the people wo wan't to prove that free wil exist will probally drive off

Will I wear pink or will I wear red (no cognition here only the fact that somewehre in here history pink got a littlebit more positive association etc)
So choose pink

Whatever the process involved you will always make the same choice because the situation and your internal state(memories feelings etc) are such and such.
What makes it so interesting is that you make your decissions based on limited information. In chaos theory comlex systems (human brain qualifies) are unpredictable because the are sensetive to initial conditions. This means that little diffrences in input can make a hughe diffrences in output.
What if I Knew the pizza was poisoned and the cliff was only 2 meters high.
This extra information(although in human terms not a subtle diffrence) would probably make the less inclined jump off the cliff.
What If i had experiences with pizza that I can't explicitly remeber but I do react upon. I can't declare I have this phobia for pizza. But everytime I smeel that pesto sauce It makes me wanna jump off a cliff in this case.
The predicament of being human becomes quite clear. You can choose only from what you can envision wich is determined by what you know. What you know is determined by what you learn and so on. This is a causal chain. calling the black box behind this chain free will because it lacks determinism(that you know of) doesn't change the fact that there are forces at work that work troughout this universe. Choice is the endproduct of a process that is in it's very nature deterministic but so complex that there is no pragmatisim in describing it as determined.

I hope I made some sense



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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: JuR]
    #1457390 - 04/14/03 04:55 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Through the clutter, I think you're talking about compatibilism.

The existence of small patterns does not necessitate the existence of a grand, unifying pattern.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineenotake2
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1459608 - 04/15/03 08:32 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"I see it like this.
from the seat of your consciousness you are doing the driving.
You do the stuff that you think will give you the best results in the future.
You do so on limited information.
This information also makes you aware off other possibilities.
You can see (human mind can predict on limited information) the future and plan your actions.

But you always choose the option that has the best results."

I agree with this, but it depend also on how much attention you allocate to the activity. Otherwise I think the more practiced activity has an advantage. You dial an old number of a friend instead of a new one, you start driving to work when you wanted to drive to the beach etc. In the case of drug addiction I think there is a continuum of dyscontrol that depends in part on how practiced the activity is. External and internal associations all lead to the activity unless a person is fastidiously sticking to their goal. I think context also plays a role, so that willpower becomes more or less difficult depending on the internal envt (eg. mood - eg. alcohol relieves stress) and external environment (eg. at a party with drinking buddies where everyone else is drinking). Or maybe that can fit in with your framework.


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1459822 - 04/15/03 11:35 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Every particle in the universe exerts a gravitational influence on every single particle in your brain. Gravity has no range.

Yes, that serotonin molecule floating in your synapse IS BEING PULLED by that unnamed galaxy 10 billion light years away.... and it pulls back...
it is being pulled by the dark matter that makes up 90% of the universe
it is being pulled by that bird soaring overhead
it is being pulled by the mass in my body
and it pulls back...

You may think that the sum of all influences reaches an equilibrium.
Not quite - it would be an imperfect, chaotic equilibrium.

What does this have to do with free will?
It appears that I'm arguing for determinism, doesn't it?

Well.... let me take a leap and say that the universe is TRULY infinite....

There are an infinite number of particles.... and once again, gravity has no range.

Will my little serotonin molecule go this way or that?



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OfflineJuR
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1462677 - 04/16/03 02:30 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

So compatibilism is it. That explains it all away. woohoo.
There goes another great idea (toilet flushing)


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OfflineMurex
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: JuR]
    #1462726 - 04/16/03 02:43 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quick reply to topic:

We do something, and we did it. No matter what, you will continue to do things and then you will look back, you might think 'fate' is leading you somewhere- but it doesn't because you will do something no matter what. Only the past can be mapped, but that doesn't prove anything to the extant of prooving fate.

Does that make any sense?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineJuR
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Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Murex]
    #1462829 - 04/16/03 03:39 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Fate is your mind making sense of what happend.
Your mind will always find a way to make random events seem related and vice versa. After a long chain of decissions you look back and say gee that makes perfect sense. Of course it did it hat to be this way. And if it doesn't make sense you'll have yourselve a existensialistic cricis. And after a while you assign meaning to those events that at first eluded you. And so you move on


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