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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Offlinecontam
Stranger
Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 20
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2083148 - 11/08/03 06:18 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

As I understand it - we have greater and greater knowledge of the patterns that things fall into but no understanding of causation itself. If we do not understand causation then any kind of certainty in this area is difficult imo.

"how does this mechanism work, where does it live?"

no one could explain that, but then you couldn't explain causation and yet you seem very certain of your opinions about it.

Determinism is only really a problem for atheists. If you believe in God you can just say "there is no cause for anything except by the will of God and that will can be delegated to creatures which are the creation of said God." God is by definition outside causality. It can't be proved, but it's possible.


If you argue for determinism then you argue that you have no choice but to believe in it, no choice but to argue for it. You also argue that those that believe in free will have no choice but to believe in free will.

This may not show that derterminism is false exactly, but it does raise the question of a possible self destroying paradox.

You can't take yourself out of the system.



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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2083310 - 11/08/03 08:36 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

So... no chance of you hitting return every once awhile to split your messages into organized, well readable posts?
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 8 years, 18 days
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2085789 - 11/09/03 03:43 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I definately have not forgotten that i am within the system, and i believe that this is all happening because it is supposed to, including all my posts, all your replys and what i'm about to type now...i cannot help but do, what i'm going to do. If everything is gods will, then there is determinism and god is the cause of it, You can even argue that god wills there to be randomness, so even randomness does not really negate determinism(but that begs the question of whether even god would know the outcome of a supposedly random even he willed). But if everything is gods will, then every choice we make, and actually the concept of choice is nonsense, but anyways every choice  was made because it was gods will,(and this is true independent of any causation in the physical world) thus we really had no choice we were just inacting gods will at any given moment. Even if we are a part of god, at best we are a finger or some small part that has no will of its own, but can only do what its told to do (consciencely or subconsciencely) by god, if god has a subconscience :wink: but still it is god that causes our action, in a way it is us, because we are part of god, but the will lies with god taken as a whole, and not at our individual level. We are the parts maybe, and god is the sum that is greater then its parts. As far as hitting enter, its hard to say, the future may be predetermined but it is still uncertain because we cannot know it, whether it is because of randomness or our inability to see that far ahead, so only time will tell my friend.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinecontam
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Registered: 08/14/03
Posts: 20
Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2086054 - 11/09/03 07:44 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

If everything is gods will, then there is determinism and god is the cause of it, But if everything is gods will, then every choice we make, and actually the concept of choice is nonsense, but anyways every choice was made because it was gods will, Even if we are a part of god, at best we are a finger or some small part that has no will of its own, but can only do what its told to do




What I said:

Quote:

Determinism is only really a problem for atheists. If you believe in God you can just say "there is no cause for anything except by the will of God and that will can be delegated to creatures which are the creation of said God." God is by definition outside causality.




"we are a finger or some small part that has no will of its own, but can only do what its told to do"

wtf? how on earth would you know this?










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Offlinecontam
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Last seen: 17 years, 11 months
watts quote. [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2086091 - 11/09/03 08:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Western man developed an intense consciousness of his separation from the rest of the universe. He probed it, analyzed it, reasoned about it as one who was not a part of it. Naturally, this purely analytic mode of thought destroyed its object; it reduced the universe to its lowest terms, it's disjointed elements, its smallest fragments.

The process of disintegration was so complex that no one man could comprehend the entire process. Therefore specialization became necessary. Knowledge was divided into a mass of subdivisions wherein each man learned more and more about less and less, until the work of analysis and disintegration was carried to its very limits. The view of the universe which finally emerged was the necessary result of the method of investigation. The universe was merely a system, if such a thing can be called a system, in which an incredible number of particles were going through haphazard permutations and combinations for colossal periods of time. That they had produced certain "ordered" forms such as the human mind, the solar system, vegetative life, and the like, was the result of pure statistical necessity.

By this process reason destroyed itself. After all, man himself was a part of this system, and man too was the product of statistical necessity, together with his reason, his theories, his ideas-including, we may observe, the idea of statistical necessity. Reason itself disappeared in meaningless mechanism.

That man is free is one of the deepest of human intuitions, and it can only be denied at the price of surrendering rational thought. If you argue that you have no freedom, you imply that you are compelled to argue in this way, and thus your opinion is not a free and rational decision but a compulsive mechanism of no more significance than a nervous tic. All rational thought and action assume a relative freedom of will.





So your own beliefs are either the inevitable consequence of antecedent states over which you have no control or they are somehow random. Your argument is therefore on treacherous ground.


surprisingly, I am actually very open to the idea that *your* beliefs may be randomly generated or that you have no control over them. It would certainly account for them far better than rational thought ever could.    :wink: 


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: watts quote. [Re: contam]
    #2088299 - 11/10/03 02:55 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

No that is exactly my arguement, that everything, including what i'm doing right now, is the result of a cause, in which case i have no freewill in what i'm doing because that cause, is causing me to do it. Actually its more complicated then that, it is likely that causality is actually the interplay between randomness and the gerneral lines of cause and effect that we see in life. The ones we see are the ones we might have a chance of predicting up to a point, but then the randomness eventually makes it impossible to predict anything with absolute accuracy in the long run. And we would need to have the ability to predict everything always, in order to have the necessary control to give us true freedom of will, but we cant, because no matter what we will, what we will wont always happen, thus we have at best limited free will, but limited freedom is a logical contradiction, you are either completely free or not at all. Limited freedom is an oxymoron. If there is always a cause for making one choice over another, what good was there in even having another option, really u didnt have the option just the illusion of an option. You need complete control to be completely free, and you need to be able to always predict every action and reaction perfectly to have complete control. Randomness doesn't save freewill either, because u cant exercise your will over randomness, at best, you can take a guess, or try to guide how it all unfolds, but you'll never know how much was your doing and how much was just luck, and you were destined to try to excersise that control, and the effectiveness or lack there of, was destined from the start anyways. Like i said true free will would be the ability to make a choice without regard to any cause, yet somehow that choice would have to NOT be random, you can't will randomness, thus the will u need for freewill isn't possible, so no free will. What everyone wants is there to be some way for something to not be predetermined, but also not be random, and this just doesn't exist, there is no room for anything to exist in reality between those two concepts, they are mutually exclusive. Anyways these arguements have been laid out earlier and in far greater detail. As far as the knowing we arent more then the equivelent of gods finger or something, technically i dont know anything, and neither do you, nor anybody else, at best we have beliefs. But i arrived at that conclusion through logical deduction(and i was faited to do so). If god's will is the cause of everything, and whether or not i'm part of god, if i dont know what god is going to do, or has done now, or in the future, or why god did that in the past then obviously it is not i on the individual level that willed this all. I may be part of the greater whole that willed it all, but i am unaware of the reasons for it, or even exactly what will be happening next, thus i am like the finger that is part of the person but the will to move the finger lies in the person as a whole and not the finger itself, because the finger doesnt know whats happening next till its told to do something, and even then the finger isnt actually aware of whats going on, how could it be, its just a finger? At best we have the gift of limited awareness of whats going on, we might be the finger that knows its moving, and we might have an idea as to why we are moving, but we can't choose to stop. We just do what we have to do at any given moment.
It is only god that has any chance of having free will, because if there is only god (meaning we and everything else are apart of god) then there is nothing to cause god to do anything, or even to desire anything, his will would be manifested spontaniously, yet it wouldn't be random, thus meeting the conditions we established earlier to allow freewill. But now here is where it gets tricky. IF there is only god, could the nothingness outside god cause god to take a particular action? If god/the system is conscience and can make choices and think, and reason, then it is almost certain that at some point it would have to take some action. and if outside god there is nothing, maybe its possible that the nothingness because of boredom or curiousity or something caused by the lack of anything else but god, motivates/causes god to do something. I dont know, but its an intresting thing to ponder. Anyways the main points are, that the concepts of freewill, choice, options, are just made up things that try to describe appearent reality, but that fundamentally these these conceptions only exist in our head, and dont describe actually reality. ofcourse you can argue that there is no difference between percieved reality and actual reality, because if you believe a lie, its still true to you. But as far as freewill goes, we only have the very real illusion of freewilll (well some of us atleast) The rest of us are left with uncertainy as our only comfort, how horrible it would be to know, that everything you are you had no choice but to be good or bad, and that you could effect no change you were not meant to, and above all... how horrible to know that your life is going to suck, now and forever, thus uncertainy atleast affords the rest of us hope of a better tomorrow. Ofcourse if everything is good now, there is always the possibility that tomorrow it wont be, we just dont know, and we cant know, so no choice but to do what we are going to do, and be what we are supposed to be.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be
P.S. Your quote would have been more accurate (in my opinion) if it would have said..."That man is free is one of the deepest of human ILLUSIONS, and THAT ILLUSION can only be CONSIDERED TRUE at the price of surrendering rational thought IN FAVOR OF BLIND FAITH."


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
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Re: watts quote. [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2095787 - 11/12/03 06:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

bumped, out of boredom and ego (damn another step backwards)  :wink:
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be (my only consolation)


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OfflineMalachi
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Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
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Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2131001 - 11/23/03 08:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

1. free will can be limited to a context

2. choosing is not determined, you just aren't thinking about sacrifice. it sucks, but since we have free will the concept exists.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineEntelle
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Registered: 11/05/03
Posts: 64
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: muhurgle]
    #2131068 - 11/23/03 09:09 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

just my thots: If there is free will, or if there isn't, it seems hard to prove one way or another. Instead of chasing your tail in a circle, one could just live as if there was free will. What is there to lose by assuming free will exists? i find it better to carry on rather than waffle in indecision. but really, that is just my thots. and i think i am important enough to have free will. of course this could be a delusion.

and also: paragraph breaks make it easier to keep the jist of your post in order, easier to keep the eye on the correct line, leading to understanding, or at least a better comprehension.


--------------------
"Not all those who wander are lost."


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #6821141 - 04/23/07 12:23 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

bump


--------------------


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