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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1449766 - 04/11/03 02:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)


Quote:

Yes, it is just barely possible, but it is improbable to the nth degree.




Thank you. At least I know now that you are not arguing that freewill is a logical necessity. But I don?t agree with your probability assessment. Devil?s advocate says, We currently use a physical causal model to explain the universe? with the exception of human behavior. Isn?t it the more parsimonious view that we are also explainable in this way, rather than proposing some metaphysical notion of freewill?


Quote:

My advice is to worry about the big philosophical questions that actually show some ambiguity and require a bit of thought to resolve, rather than nitpick something that any six year old knows through his own experimentation -- that he decides what he will do.




Yeah, I?m sorry? I?m a little slow for thinking about stuffs? my mommy tells me I?m smart though?

This kind of reminds me of the whole idealism vs. realism thing- because we must assume objects in our logical reasoning system, there is no way to use that same system to support or deny the existence of objects. Similarly, as of our current agreed-upon experience of being human, we must assume that we have free choice- it is axiomatic in our experience (Thank you Godel!). And so we arrive at pragmatism- it is useful to act on the assumption, so it must be the right assumption. But although I agree it is useful, there is still a compelling alternative that has not been (and maybe cannot be) ruled out.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1449979 - 04/11/03 03:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Swami writes:

If we have free will and are not the sum of our history, chemistry, environment and current input state, then why would anyone freely and repeatedly choose a destructive action?


Because many of the addicted choose to trade temporary relief for long term gain. This does not change the fact that it is a choice.

Now Pinky will demonstrate free will for all of us here by publicly declaring his most powerful addiction and then refraining from such activity for three months.

I will accept his word on this.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineKathaneal
Stranger
Registered: 03/13/03
Posts: 11
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Swami]
    #1450235 - 04/11/03 05:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The usual problem I see with these discussions is there is no applicable way to experiment with the ideas and free thinking on this matter.

What follows may only cover a narrow range of choices, but no one can deny that we all have addictions. For the sake of this discussion, I will define an addiction as the making of a choice counter to what we intellectually know to be healthy. If we have free will and are not the sum of our history, chemistry, environment and current input state, then why would anyone freely and repeatedly choose a destructive action?

Hint: merely naming something does not explain it. "
 




What briefly presented was a tangent, which I gave direct clues on the overall scope of determinism first, not the microscopic.  It?s a good idea to understand and realize the important foundations before delving into the complexities.  I find Modern nUmer does provide that to explain, reasonably, this, for example: ?Of course I have no choice - it's an addiction!"
?

One way Modern Numer can, generally at first,  define this:

Karmic Debt Numbers.  These are very special numbers because it is QUITE a unique challenge for the person.  This number is known as 14/5. 
A person?s full name with a 14/5 in the Heart?s Desire or Expression number (known as a core numbers) will have to face the addictions:


The 14 Karmic Debt arises from previous lifetimes during which human freedom has been abused. Those with a 14 Karmic Debt are forced to adapt to ever-changing circumstances and unexpected occurrences. There is an acute danger of falling victim to abuse of drugs, alcohol, and overindulgence in sensual pleasures, such as food and sex. You must put the reins on yourself. Modesty in all affairs is crucial to overcoming this Karmic Debt.

Also important is the need to maintain order in life, and to establish one's own emotional stability. you must also be willing to adapt to the unexpected occurrences of life, all the while maintaining your focus on your goals and dreams. Flexibility and adaptability are at the very core of this struggle.
Orderliness in one's immediate environment is crucial to maintaining clarity and focus. Mental and emotional stability must be attained in order to avoid being thrown about by the changing fortunes in the external environment.

But the key to the 14 Karmic Debt is commitment. Life will resemble a roller coaster ride, but it will always travel in the right direction if one's heart is set on what is true and good. Set yourself a high goal, maintain order wherever possible in your life, avoid excessive sensory indulgence, and maintain faith. Above all, do not give up on your dreams and goals.
Those with the 14 Karmic Debt will experience life to the fullest, and as long as they maintain a high dream, they will achieve success and great spiritual development.
excerpt from Decoz.com

How do I know this is true?  My full name has it. I have experienced a gamut of addictive impulses for many years. My life is the perfect poster boy for bi-polarmania.  :smile: Overpowering me.  I couldn?t understand why I was like this. My intellect knew better, but the instinct had the control. IT was driving me like a dog until near the end of last year, through Numer, I found the source.  Imagine my surprise.  I?m still in disbelief.

Now, like you said we have our own poisons.  Its a matter of extremity that sets apart the impulsiveness.  Mine was extreme with broad objects and subjects to energize this instinct.  I care not to further explain what those are.  Use your imagination.  The excerpt alluded to what they were.
 


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Kathaneal]
    #1452214 - 04/12/03 01:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

My dogma ran over your kar... wait.... no... I mean my dog is something... hmm... I mean you hafta think for yourself and karma and stuff is like uh...


My cat's breath smells like cat food.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1452238 - 04/12/03 01:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Godel?

Did you think I had forgotten? I didn't. We will deal with him later.

[adds salt and butter to popcorn]


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1452685 - 04/12/03 04:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

No prob. It's actually kind of comforting- I won't have to feel guilty if I take half a year to respond to your post. he, he  :wink:

...take your time 


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineJuR
member
Registered: 07/28/00
Posts: 49
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1456763 - 04/14/03 12:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I see it like this.
from the seat of your consciousness you are doing the driving.
You do the stuff that you think will give you the best results in the future.
You do so on limited information.
This information also makes you aware off other possibilities.
You can see (human mind can predict on limited information) the future and plan your actions.

But you always choose the option that has the best results.

Let's drive from a cliff or have pizza.
Everybody chooses pizza. But the people wo wan't to prove that free wil exist will probally drive off

Will I wear pink or will I wear red (no cognition here only the fact that somewehre in here history pink got a littlebit more positive association etc)
So choose pink

Whatever the process involved you will always make the same choice because the situation and your internal state(memories feelings etc) are such and such.
What makes it so interesting is that you make your decissions based on limited information. In chaos theory comlex systems (human brain qualifies) are unpredictable because the are sensetive to initial conditions. This means that little diffrences in input can make a hughe diffrences in output.
What if I Knew the pizza was poisoned and the cliff was only 2 meters high.
This extra information(although in human terms not a subtle diffrence) would probably make the less inclined jump off the cliff.
What If i had experiences with pizza that I can't explicitly remeber but I do react upon. I can't declare I have this phobia for pizza. But everytime I smeel that pesto sauce It makes me wanna jump off a cliff in this case.
The predicament of being human becomes quite clear. You can choose only from what you can envision wich is determined by what you know. What you know is determined by what you learn and so on. This is a causal chain. calling the black box behind this chain free will because it lacks determinism(that you know of) doesn't change the fact that there are forces at work that work troughout this universe. Choice is the endproduct of a process that is in it's very nature deterministic but so complex that there is no pragmatisim in describing it as determined.

I hope I made some sense



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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: JuR]
    #1457390 - 04/14/03 04:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Through the clutter, I think you're talking about compatibilism.

The existence of small patterns does not necessitate the existence of a grand, unifying pattern.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Offlineenotake2
Stop Bush's war
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 1,457
Loc: Comfy chair in my lounger...
Last seen: 10 years, 6 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1459608 - 04/15/03 08:32 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"I see it like this.
from the seat of your consciousness you are doing the driving.
You do the stuff that you think will give you the best results in the future.
You do so on limited information.
This information also makes you aware off other possibilities.
You can see (human mind can predict on limited information) the future and plan your actions.

But you always choose the option that has the best results."

I agree with this, but it depend also on how much attention you allocate to the activity. Otherwise I think the more practiced activity has an advantage. You dial an old number of a friend instead of a new one, you start driving to work when you wanted to drive to the beach etc. In the case of drug addiction I think there is a continuum of dyscontrol that depends in part on how practiced the activity is. External and internal associations all lead to the activity unless a person is fastidiously sticking to their goal. I think context also plays a role, so that willpower becomes more or less difficult depending on the internal envt (eg. mood - eg. alcohol relieves stress) and external environment (eg. at a party with drinking buddies where everyone else is drinking). Or maybe that can fit in with your framework.


--------------------
Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1459822 - 04/15/03 11:35 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Every particle in the universe exerts a gravitational influence on every single particle in your brain. Gravity has no range.

Yes, that serotonin molecule floating in your synapse IS BEING PULLED by that unnamed galaxy 10 billion light years away.... and it pulls back...
it is being pulled by the dark matter that makes up 90% of the universe
it is being pulled by that bird soaring overhead
it is being pulled by the mass in my body
and it pulls back...

You may think that the sum of all influences reaches an equilibrium.
Not quite - it would be an imperfect, chaotic equilibrium.

What does this have to do with free will?
It appears that I'm arguing for determinism, doesn't it?

Well.... let me take a leap and say that the universe is TRULY infinite....

There are an infinite number of particles.... and once again, gravity has no range.

Will my little serotonin molecule go this way or that?



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OfflineJuR
member
Registered: 07/28/00
Posts: 49
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1462677 - 04/16/03 02:30 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So compatibilism is it. That explains it all away. woohoo.
There goes another great idea (toilet flushing)


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OfflineMurex
Reality Hacker

Registered: 07/28/02
Posts: 3,599
Loc: Traped in a shell.
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: JuR]
    #1462726 - 04/16/03 02:43 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quick reply to topic:

We do something, and we did it. No matter what, you will continue to do things and then you will look back, you might think 'fate' is leading you somewhere- but it doesn't because you will do something no matter what. Only the past can be mapped, but that doesn't prove anything to the extant of prooving fate.

Does that make any sense?


--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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OfflineJuR
member
Registered: 07/28/00
Posts: 49
Last seen: 14 years, 10 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Murex]
    #1462829 - 04/16/03 03:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Fate is your mind making sense of what happend.
Your mind will always find a way to make random events seem related and vice versa. After a long chain of decissions you look back and say gee that makes perfect sense. Of course it did it hat to be this way. And if it doesn't make sense you'll have yourselve a existensialistic cricis. And after a while you assign meaning to those events that at first eluded you. And so you move on


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