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OfflineSpecialEd
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Help! Free will problem.
    #2324911 - 02/11/04 05:52 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

This arguement made me so mad that I threw the book I was reading down the stairs.


1. Either you will eat an apple at lunch tomorrow, or you will not. Excluded middle.

Okay.

2. If you will eat an apple at lunch tomorrow, then nothing you do between now and then will stop you from having that apple at lunch. Noncontradiction.

Okay, even though this is iffy (ad hoc)

3. If you will not eat an apple at lunch tomorrow, then any effort you make between now and then to eat such an apple will be, litterally, fruitless. Noncontradiction.

Okay, still ad hoc.

4. You do not now have two equally available options to eat or not to eat that apple. (By definition of what an option is) Thus,

Red flag. I cannot figure out why the two events are not equal, unless you factor in the choices you make, such as (1) packing an apple in your lunch. Considering those choices defeats this arguement.

5. You are not really free concerning whether you will or will not eat an apple at lunch tommorow. (By the definition of freedom as requiring real options)

This just seems wrong to me and I cannot articulate why.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2324925 - 02/11/04 05:57 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Fuck it, choose to be a carnivore and ignore the whole apple deal.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: Evolving]
    #2324935 - 02/11/04 06:00 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fuck it, choose to be a carnivore and ignore the whole apple deal.




Until this is debunked, I don't know if I have that choice.


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Anonymous

Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2324974 - 02/11/04 06:13 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That's ridiculous. You've made the choice to eat or not eat the apple in the first place, and that is free will. Also I agree with you about the iffy statements. You can change your mind in the meantime whether you will eat the apple or not, however that's usually the result of an external event having a bearing upon your choice.

Find a better book to read.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2325066 - 02/11/04 06:38 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

This sounds more like an argument involving fate, like "you can't change upcoming events".

Quote:

2. If you will eat an apple at lunch tomorrow, then nothing you do between now and then will stop you from having that apple at lunch. Noncontradiction.


.
How about getting yourself killed? Forgetting to pack the apple? Packing a rotten apple? The apple dropping from your bag and being run over by an armored money truck?

Quote:

3. If you will not eat an apple at lunch tomorrow, then any effort you make between now and then to eat such an apple will be, litterally, fruitless. Noncontradiction.



If someone points a gun at your head and hands you an apple, you're free to choose whether you eat it or not. The gun could have an influence though.

Quote:

4. You do not now have two equally available options to eat or not to eat that apple. (By definition of what an option is) Thus,



They can not both be available options if you look at the current from the perspective of the future, since "it already happened". The flaw in this argument - I think - lies in the assumption that if you don't feel like having an apple at supper right now you can't change your mind later. Either that or he's stuck in brain seizure mode:

1. Woke up this morning.
2. Chose not to eat an apple.
4. Your choice leaves you with only one real option: not to eat an apple, because you've chosen not to.


--------------------
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle


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Invisibleidiotek
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2325106 - 02/11/04 06:50 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)


This is all dependent on whether or not you believe in causal determinism. It's a fact that you will either eat it or not eat it, but I personally believe that you are capable of making the choice spontaneously.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2325421 - 02/11/04 08:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

lol. that argument is complete nonsense

I threw the book I was reading down the stairs

:thumbup:


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2325440 - 02/11/04 08:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineLittleBen
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2325674 - 02/11/04 10:22 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Truely believing in free will while truely believing in the possibility of determinism is a difficult hurtle in the path to a centered life. I only speak from my personal consideration of the topic, but knowing that I do not know whether I will eat an apple tommorow is enough to having concrete free will. There is the possibility that God will make me eat an apple tommorow, but I dont know for sure so within my spectrum of reality I make the choice. Trying to live above my own spectrum hurts my head.


--------------------
Gaia, as you awaken, I heal myself. As I awaken, you are healed.


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: LittleBen]
    #2325892 - 02/12/04 06:42 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Good thoughts Ben.. I think this all ties into the whole Matrix Reloaded theme of cause and effect. If you choose today to eat an apple tomorrow, you may have no choice but to eat that apple, based on the events leading up to lunch tomorrow reflected off your 'I'm gonna eat the apple' mindstate.
It's like that Ashton whatever guy's movie (Kelso) the Butterfly Effect.. You have free will, but everything you experience cannot be changed, as it was determined in past events. You make decisions based on your options at hand, when in reality you may be causing the exact opposite based on the chain-reaction of what you chose to do at a previous [time]frame of reference.


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: nubious]
    #2326204 - 02/12/04 11:48 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"Good thoughts Ben.. I think this all ties into the whole Matrix Reloaded theme of cause and effect. If you choose today to eat an apple tomorrow, you may have no choice but to eat that apple, based on the events leading up to lunch tomorrow reflected off your 'I'm gonna eat the apple' mindstate.
It's like that Ashton whatever guy's movie (Kelso) the Butterfly Effect.. You have free will, but everything you experience cannot be changed, as it was determined in past events. You make decisions based on your options at hand, when in reality you may be causing the exact opposite based on the chain-reaction of what you chose to do at a previous [time]frame of reference."

what you do depends on the events that you experienced. The way you feel is determined by your judgement, and that in turn determines how you react. what we do is based on something else, no matter how small it may seem. now does this mean we don't have free will?

no, but I do think we are slaves to emotional addictions and what we think of ourselves. who we think we are and how we view ourselves determines what happens.

if we break from from emotional traps, then we can have conscious free will.


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2326218 - 02/12/04 11:54 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

by the way ed, that book sucks!!!!


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2326857 - 02/12/04 02:52 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kaiowas said:
by the way ed, that book sucks!!!!




Ja, I read that, and I thought the dude had some sort of mental problem... what he said wasn't even expressed concisely. Its like.. um... *walks away and forgets it*. :wink:

But this is about free will, right? Well, I think we all can say that obviously every action we make is influenced by the past. Our experiences, choices we have made before, every single little variable in the course of existance that led up to that moment.

That is something I don't think we can argue with.. if we would have finished off that glass of water one second earlier than we did, then God would have came down and said "hello". But since we drank it slower, an entire future was altered and never to be.

Or maybe at every little point in the path, every single choice that could have been made then is experienced in a different dimension. That would equate into an infinity of experience, basically... but that isn't anything to think about now.

Anyways, I think of it more like a flowing river. To take one moment in that flow and to ask "did I consciously make that choice?" doesn't make sense to me. Its like, have we ever made a conscious choice? Or does it just come to be? Are we along for a ride?

Take the.. I believe "Plinko" coin and drop it through that thing. It bounces around, following a path that just comes to be. Was there any conscious decision at every point in where it would go? Well, it isn't conscious, just a little.. I dunno what the hell it is made out of, maybe Bob Barker's hip... but isn't it just following the path of least resistance? Isn't it just going where the pressure behind it (a.k.a. where it went before) pushes it?

All becoming mindful and aware does is make you realize that you are a collection of flowing energy going down a path. At least you realize what is going on while it is going on....

At any rate, continue flowing! :nut:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: Alan Stone]
    #2326913 - 02/12/04 03:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

"How about getting yourself killed? Forgetting to pack the apple? Packing a rotten apple? The apple dropping from your bag and being run over by an armored money truck?"

Well then the statement "You will eat an apple at lunch tomorrow" is false, and was false all along


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2326919 - 02/12/04 03:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

you bring something up about least resistance. t hat's a good analogy you used btw!

while the coin doesn't have an awareness, you do.  you can make a decision on whether the path you are taking is actually least resistant, but then again the goes back to the fact of what we think is resistant or not is in our heads. least resistant is a defintiion unique to you. 

the problem here is words describing how things actually feel.  i wold liek to say it's my rational mind that decides these things but now I am confused.  hehe

personally I define free will as a conduct of ourselves through personal choices and is not simply determined by physical or devine forces. that is the dictionary definition as well.

as you stated "Well, I think we all can say that obviously every action we make is influenced by the past. Our experiences, choices we have made before, every single little variable in the course of existance that led up to that moment."

so a situation arises, but how do you handle it.  what determines how your emotions flow.  is it true that there are some who can't control their emotions. this is what I meant be conscious free will.  breaking the chains of our preconcieved notions!

some other questions..

what is it that makes things resistant to you? 

is it like some hidden intent moving through all of us??

"Or maybe at every little point in the path, every single choice that could have been made then is experienced in a different dimension. That would equate into an infinity of experience,"

:grin:  this is something to the effect that everything that has ever happened and that will happened is happening right now!  that is something to think about...


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinenubious
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2327171 - 02/12/04 04:07 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

while the coin doesn't have an awareness, you do.




That's debatable.. The coin very well may have awareness, but this doesn't mean it's an awareness like we have.. The particles of the coin are aware when something presses up against the coin, therefor causing the particles to react against the pressure of whatever is pressing against it - I think this can be classified as awareness. The coin cannot communicate, therefor we cannot verify it's awareness, but I that doesn't mean it isn't aware. (IMO)


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
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Registered: 07/31/03
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: kaiowas]
    #2327204 - 02/12/04 04:13 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

In talking about free-will there are a number of diferent options. Whenever I think about it, I end up thinking "what provides for it?" And what does? It seems that we have two options for the "nature of everything"

Determinism: The state of the universe at t is a causal function of the state at t* where t* is the state previous to t. This seems to provide for an almost mathematical approach to what the universe might be like at any given point---in the abstract (building a computer to simulate the universe inside of the universe sounds problematic =]) you'd have the initial state, s0 and some function, f, which gives the next state, so s1 = f(s0), s2 = f(f(s0)) and so on and so on. If you're an incompatibilist, this is incompatible with an account of free will.

I think that this makes sense, if free will means "the freedom to have done otherwise". This seems to strongly imply that determinism must be false and that my will must somehow play a role in the physical state of the universe. But if physical/chemical structures are the source of my will, then how would I ever have done otherwise?

I guess I should note that this assumes materialism. If we allow for some sort of dual-substance theory of stuff, then all bets are off. The only thing I can say to someone who is still a dualist in the cartesian sense is, I guess, "show me---and please don't say the pineal gland" =]

But I don't think that it's a guaranteed truth that the universe operates deterministically. And so what's the other option?

Indeterminism: The model for this is just like the one for determinism except that, if we were to model it as a "function" (I suppose it's not a "function" in the strict mathematical sense, because as I understand it a "function" provides a mapping between two sets and isn't subject to any sort of randomness) then this function (perhaps r-function for "random-function"? Or p-function? pseudo-function?) This p-function (I like how that sounds.) takes its input but gives a completely random value as its output. Let's call this function p. We have some initial state, but the state s1 is not in any way predicated on the antecedent state s0.

For example,
f(s0) = s1 and only s1
p(s0) = s1 or anything else.

Now, let's say that we actually do have a function somehow like f. It's not complete in the sense that f is, but this is just what physics is---trying to determine consequent state from antecedent state. We have, for example, an f for what happens when you drop a ball from the top of a building or for when you heat water to such and such a point.

Here's the challenge:
You have a theory which describes a function, f, which produces from initial state s0 a set of consequent states.

You also have a set of observations which seem to validate f. That is, the set of predicted consequent states from s0 is the same as the observed set of consequent states.

Problem:
How can you tell this function f from the p-function p? Is it possible? Is f necessarily not the same as p? Is it unlikely that f is not p? Or is this problem fairly undecidable?

I guess this strayed from the path of free-will---but there seem to be some people who think that determinism must be false in order to gain free will. I believe that determinism being false is only a necessary condition, not a sufficient one. What are the sufficient conditions for freewill? I have no idea. I certainly have no idea if one accepts the defintion as "could have done otherwise" or "could do otherwise in the future based on the current state of the universe", but so far I've yet to meet a compelling argument.

And so, like determinism vs. indeterminism, it seems that free-will vs. not-free-will is an undecidable problem.

Of course, some people will say fancy things like "phenomenologically evidenced", but people say that about all sorts of philosophy of mind terms, and we still have eliminitavism.


--------------------
----
"Better Dead than Red."


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2327587 - 02/12/04 05:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

To everyone that posted:

DId you express free will in your posts, or was it deterministic? Was it a knee jerk reaction?


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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
Space Monkey

Registered: 07/31/03
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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2327706 - 02/12/04 06:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know.
I'm not sure that I could know, either.


--------------------
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"Better Dead than Red."


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OfflineDeiymiyan
I AM

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Re: Help! Free will problem. [Re: ]
    #2328215 - 02/12/04 09:39 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

You can change your mind in the meantime whether you will eat the apple or not, however that's usually the result of an external event having a bearing upon your choice.


Yeah.. So, if one, was to "choose" to WANT to eat the apple, really really wants that apple, just can't wait to eat that apple, but could not due to the fact that it was, stolen, rotten, death, whatever.. Then they were not meant to have it.

So.. If your choice is affected by external events, that is, "they" ultimately dictate whether or not it will be possible to satisfy the choice you just made, it would appear that, your choice really dosen't matter at the time you make it.


You are free to think whatever you want... But what happens, is another matter.


Sounds like predeterminism.

But, there could be value in such a system.


If things are prewritten at this time, I'd be interested to know if those conditions would ever be destined to change.

Would such a gift be available?


--------------------


Dei Gratia de integro,

Veni Vidi Vici:

In Nomine Domini..



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