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Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1446441 - 04/10/03 02:04 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cats and other animals are on one side of a huge divide and we as humans are on the other.

We have conceptual abstraction which culminates in true conciousness. Not only are we self-aware but we alone can think about thinking.

Hence, we are outside the restrictive paradigm as Pinky noted.




I agree that the highly adaptive brain and the ability for meta-cognition in particular makes us qualitatively unique in the animal world, but I don't see how all of this activitiy is obviously not part of the causal chain. It boils down to how do you deal with the epiphenomenalists' stance- see my response to pinksharkmark.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1446468 - 04/10/03 02:12 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I am surprised to see you of all people try to slide that one by us.
*Gets on bended knee* Please, please, just this one time, let me slide one by and I will never ask again.

A disappointingly sloppy effort, Swami -- I can tell your heart's not really in it. Having difficulties at home? Anything we can do to help?
The Market was down and I slept poorly last night. I "chose" to write a witty and insightful post, but alas, it was out of my hands. :wink:

 


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1446535 - 04/10/03 02:28 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

buttonion:

Please illustrate to me how "the consciousness" and not the mechanism calls the shots-

Purple monkey dishwasher. Hablas espa?ol? 440 or fight. 3x+4y = 313.448.

I have just demonstrated ostensively that free will exists. It was my consciousness that directed my fingers to perform specific actions on specific keys to produce a specific pattern of my choosing.

It was neither predestination nor randomness that created the above pattern. My consciousness chose volitionally what words to type, what language to use, when to switch from alpha to numeric, whether to emphasize certain parts with color or italics or boldface or nothing at all, which parts were to be emphasized, whether the phrases were profound or whimsical, etc.

My nervous system didn't dictate which symbols my consciousness chose to select to illustrate my point, although it was an essential component of the neurophysiological mechanism by which my choices were recorded.

Will you argue that my choices were pre-determined? How can you convincingly argue such an untenable position when at any moment I can again demonstrate ostensively piranha nib-nob jelly doughnut? I can do so at will. I can type gibberish, non-sequiturs, or reasoned responses at will.

Clearly, this detour from normal english language communication is not random, either -- if it were it would look like 5kxug]ne h,mas6v1 55 fofn05fb hj spp pgq5 instead of purple monkey dishwasher.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Swami]
    #1446557 - 04/10/03 02:33 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Swami writes:

Please, please, just this one time, let me slide one by and I will never ask again.

Well.... okay. Everyone is entitled to the occasional lapse, I suppose. But I'm gonna hold you to your promise, mind.

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Phred]
    #1446814 - 04/10/03 03:32 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

I enjoy your rebuttals immensely. They save me the time and effect of posting my thoughts.

Thank you for your contributions.

buttonion: refer to Pinky

Cheers,


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1447173 - 04/10/03 05:24 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

(Whoops, this is in reply to pinksharkmark)

Well, I am not arguing whether you believe many of your actions are done out of your own freewill, and that is all you have succeeded in demonstrating here. So you have generated some symbols in a way you perceive as spontaneous, and I cannot explain why or how you did it with any existing neurological model- therefore these actions are outside of the causal chain? It is still possible that all of this behavior could be accounted for by physical laws, and we undoubtedly have a lot more to discover in the field of neuroscience.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


Edited by buttonion (04/10/03 05:34 PM)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1447437 - 04/10/03 06:38 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Determinism is boring and for the insecure...
*yawn*

that is all... move along.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1447571 - 04/10/03 07:34 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

ok, everyone scatter, he has spoken !!!


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OfflineKaneda
QUALITY!!1!
Registered: 12/18/02
Posts: 13
Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1447600 - 04/10/03 07:50 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Determinism is boring and for the insecure...
*yawn*




So is gravity. It's still there though.


Edited by Kaneda (04/10/03 07:51 PM)


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Sclorch]
    #1447823 - 04/10/03 09:13 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Determinism is boring and for the insecure...
*yawn*

that is all... move along.





I kind of agree, in that it appears to be an unsolvable problem, and so why keep asking the question. But should we just sweep it under the carpet and pretend that it's not there? There's got to be someway of addressing it... Alan Watts (and I'm sure others) said that when we are faced with these unsolvable problems of philosophy, it is usually because we are asking the wrong question- that the premise of our question is wrong. I think the answer lies along these lines, but I'm not quite sure how.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Anonymous

Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1448567 - 04/11/03 02:08 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

accepting determinism....

how would you react if you knew it was true? would you continue to give into your false free will....(not that you have a choice)?



Edited by LoOnEr (04/11/03 02:19 AM)


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OfflineKathaneal
Stranger
Registered: 03/13/03
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Last seen: 18 years, 7 months
Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1448571 - 04/11/03 02:10 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

"So? freewill vs. determinism?"

The usual problem I see with these discussions is there is no applicable way to experiment with the ideas and free thinking on this matter.

Apps: numerology and astrology would be considered determinstic *applied* theories. The clue on freewill vs. not is just key clicks away if you just do a simple search on modern numerology.

I don't feel like doing a discourse on numer but... Anyone interested on a free online course can go to www.real-yoga.com -> subscribe to yantra. Claimed as the oldest numer system before Pythagoras, Kaballah, and Chaldean.

Anyone interested on Modern Numer free online course can go to asklana.com

Excellent info and software: www.decoz.com

Anyone want a demonstration on the theory (I have software I like to try), ask me. *smirk

--K








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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Kathaneal]
    #1449106 - 04/11/03 10:18 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The usual problem I see with these discussions is there is no applicable way to experiment with the ideas and free thinking on this matter.

What follows may only cover a narrow range of choices, but no one can deny that we all have addictions. For the sake of this discussion, I will define an addiction as the making of a choice counter to what we intellectually know to be healthy. If we have free will and are not the sum of our history, chemistry, environment and current input state, then why would anyone freely and repeatedly choose a destructive action?

Hint: merely naming something does not explain it. "Of course I have no choice - it's an addiction!"


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Swami]
    #1449253 - 04/11/03 11:38 AM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Well said.

[goes to make more popcorn]


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Numerology:: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Swami]
    #1449470 - 04/11/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Swami writes:

If we have free will and are not the sum of our history, chemistry, environment and current input state, then why would anyone freely and repeatedly choose a destructive action?

Because many of the addicted choose to trade temporary relief for long term gain. This does not change the fact that it is a choice. The fact that one possesses free will is no guarantee that every single choice one makes is of longterm benefit to one's self.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
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Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1449502 - 04/11/03 01:35 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

buttonion writes:

Well, I am not arguing whether you believe many of your actions are done out of your own freewill, and that is all you have succeeded in demonstrating here.

Not only do I believe it, but so do you. When is the last time that you decided to rub your nose but found yourself unable to? Were you forced to respond to my post? Of course not. You chose to respond.

You know from your own experience that you do in fact possess free will, but for some reason unbeknownst to me, you choose to question it, not even realizing that the act of writing a post challenging it is the best possible demonstration of the fact that it exists.

Is it possible that you were "destined" to challenge its existence? Is it possible that every facet of your thoughts and your actions are scripted in advance? Yes, it is just barely possible, but it is improbable to the nth degree.

More to the point, if our conviction that we have free will is illusory, it is such an incredibly well-crafted illusion that in practical terms the "illusion" is reality, and as a practical philosophy by which to run one's life, there is absolutely zero downside to accepting it. It is the most accurate working hypothesis of any of the philosophical principles by which humans attempt to further their existence.

There are literally billions of ways to demonstrate ostensively that free will exists, and exactly zero ways to demonstrate that it does not.

My advice is to worry about the big philosophical questions that actually show some ambiguity and require a bit of thought to resolve, rather than nitpick something that any six year old knows through his own experimentation -- that he decides what he will do.

pinky


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InvisibleHelp on the Way
Slipknot420

Registered: 08/13/00
Posts: 2,893
Loc: Another World
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1449506 - 04/11/03 01:36 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Looner, man you have been saying thoughts that i've been unable to put into words for a while. Ever since i took this class on braiin and behavior in school. Anyway.. i pretty much agree with what you were saying. And i agree that i have developed much more peace of mind since then too.


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:shocked: *Divine Moments of Truth* :shocked:


"Limitless undying love which shines around me like a million suns - it calls me on and on across the universe" ~ John Lennon

"Once in a while you get shown the light in the strangest of places if you look at it right" ~The Grateful Dead

"Religionists, with their guaranteed eventual paradise, of which they know nothing, taking it all on 'faith,' can't be expected to understand or sympathize with those with a yen to storm the Gate of Heaven and see for themselves what all the praying's about!" ~Robert Hunter


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InvisibleRebelSteve33
Amateur Mycologist
Male

Registered: 05/28/02
Posts: 3,774
Loc: Arizona
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: buttonion]
    #1449572 - 04/11/03 01:58 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

Free will is an illusion.  We all like to think we have it, yet we don't.  Everything we do is a result of the particular society we are a part of at a particular place in time.  We all have collars around our necks with leashes that are attached to the great master of society.  We are under its control whether we think so or not.

:crazy:

-RebelSteve


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Namaste.


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: ]
    #1449594 - 04/11/03 02:04 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

The human experience as I know it would not be possible. Whether or not there is a way of going on in the face of determinism is an interesting question. I would guess that it is not possible to "fully" embrace it- even if we intellectually know everything is determined, we must act on the assumption that we have free choice- a necessary delusion. Or I guess we could attempt to eliminate self-awareness and evolve into an ant colony.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
Son of the LordGod Almighty

Registered: 10/12/02
Posts: 446
Loc: Vatican City
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Freewill vs. Determinism: ....??? [Re: Help on the Way]
    #1449615 - 04/11/03 02:08 PM (18 years, 7 months ago)

If one accepts determinism, have they not just exercised free-will? Are they unable to choose for themselves what they believe in?


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Shop: Bridgetown Botanicals Bridgetown Botanicals   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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