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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Anonymous

Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2436120 - 03/15/04 08:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2436136 - 03/15/04 08:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2436150 - 03/15/04 08:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: ]
    #2436807 - 03/15/04 10:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, what he said.

Who wrote that essay? I couldn't help noticing it was unattributed. Morty Adler, perhaps?

pinky


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Offlinewhiterabbit13
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2437013 - 03/15/04 11:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

freewill my friend


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Anonymous

Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Phred]
    #2437188 - 03/16/04 12:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: ]
    #2438110 - 03/16/04 06:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Damn... :thumbup:

I feel silly now.

For not thinking of asking The Great Google if there is freewill.

Well, good job!

:wink:


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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: ]
    #2438264 - 03/16/04 08:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The cause can only be rational insight, and this must be based on truth, because human nature cannot lead man into an irresistible error in something which affects his essential well-being and happiness.

Wow. Is this supposed to be philosophy? It's nothing but blind faith.

Whatever makes you comfortable, I guess.


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"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: muhurgle]
    #2438318 - 03/16/04 09:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> because human nature cannot lead man into an irresistible error in something which affects his essential well-being and happiness.

Lets check in with our local crack addict and see what he thinks about that statement.


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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: ]
    #2438922 - 03/16/04 01:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Freedom of the will transcends determinism.
It's not as though the problem is determinism or freedom of the will.  There are plenty of compatibilist theories, not that I agree with them.

The problem here is postulating some sort of mechanism whereby freedom of the will might function and be compatible with the idea that only material things exist.  But freedom of the will, it seems to me, cannot be material on the account given.  So where is it?

And, as an interesting side-note, which I think has a parallel insofar as intuitive thoughts are concerned.

When I was little, there was this donut shop that my family would drive by on the way to the local skating rink.  It was called "Duffin's Donuts".  For whatever reason my parents decided to always call it "Duffy's"---I think this was to rhyme with another donut shop, Nuffy's.  I mention this because the error persisted long after I had learned to read.  I was ~11 and in a car with a friend and I said "oh, there's Duffy's!", and she looked at me---"No, that's Duffin's".

And once I see it as Duffin's, I can hardly read the same characters as Duffy's.  This wasn't just that I'd refer to Duffin's as Duffy's, but that I'd read "Duffin" as "Duffy". When I was informed that I was wrong, I was almost incredulous.  But then I looked at the evidence.  Belief revision is a wonderful thing---even if your parents have conditioned you to believe lies, it is possible

:smile:


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"Better Dead than Red."


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Seuss]
    #2439384 - 03/16/04 03:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

At the same time, I have the freedom to choose if I want to be happy or sad.

Perhaps, perhaps not.

Depressed (and less happy) people generally have lower levels of serotonin than non-depressed (happy) people; hence the general success of SSRIs (anti-depressants). Is it a conscious choice to have a lower level of serotonin or merely a result of biology and environment?

A recent well-written tome (sorry, cannot remember the title) on depression explored most every modality, both physiological and psychological, and came to the conclusion from extensive research, that depression may be controlled, but not cured. Merely "choosing" to be happy through positive affirmations, meditation, etc. had only sub-clinical levels of efficacy, while increasing levels of neurotransmitters was the only effective treatment.

You are what you transmit (on a chemical level).

Can one choose to take anti-depressants or not? Perhaps, perhaps not. A Christian Scientist's upbringing may preclude them exploring that route while another brought up in a houseful of prescription drugs might find it the only route.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2439505 - 03/16/04 03:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Mal_Fenderson writes:

The problem here is postulating some sort of mechanism whereby freedom of the will might function and be compatible with the idea that only material things exist. But freedom of the will, it seems to me, cannot be material on the account given. So where is it?

Yep. There's the conundrum. It would therefore appear logical to conclude (given our current state of scientifically verifiable knowledge re the interactions of strictly material entities) that not only material things exist.

pinky


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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
Space Monkey

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Posts: 132
Loc: North American Plate.
Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Phred]
    #2439534 - 03/16/04 03:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If I accept that I have good evidence for my own free-will and that free-will cannot be materially explicable.
I don't have this intuitive sense of it, so the argument fails. Although if I did I can certainly see how the argument would work.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2439621 - 03/16/04 04:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You don't believe you have the capacity to act volitionally? Every action you take, every thought you experience is pre-ordained? You are nothing more than a helpless passenger along for the ride aboard the vessel that is your body?

Bummer.

pinky


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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
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Posts: 132
Loc: North American Plate.
Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Phred]
    #2439745 - 03/16/04 04:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Oddly enough, I enjoy things all the same.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2439843 - 03/16/04 04:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Are you a Fatalist, by any chance Mal?



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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #2439991 - 03/16/04 05:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know what I am, really.
I don't think that I believe things are fixed, i.e., that the future state of the universe could be known simply as a function of the current state. That might be the case, but I do not know how I would ever know that it was.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Phred]
    #2440337 - 03/16/04 07:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You don't believe you have the capacity to act volitionally? Every action you take, every thought you experience is pre-ordained?

Was watching the History channel about the trial in Mississippi in the mid-50s that sparked that Civil Rights Movement. A black teenager was beaten to death for wolf whistling at a white woman.

The all-white jury acquitted the two white murderers even though it was pretty clear that they did it (and they later wrote an article in Life maagazine describing their crime!)

Not one white person in the town spoke out against the atrocity. Basically this was for one of two reasons:

1. Enculturation - they were brought up to be racist and knew no other way to view the events.

2. Fear - of violence or at least societal shunning.

Apparently the whole white community was exercising their free-will or were they?


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Anonymous

Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Phred]
    #2441602 - 03/17/04 01:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Mal_Fenderson]
    #2441618 - 03/17/04 01:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

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