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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
"Freewill problem" check
    #2424210 - 03/12/04 03:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

So I just wanted to check in with everyone about the good old "problem of freewill." Whooppdee doo. Eggh. Anyone cracked this nut yet? (he, he) Every once and a while one of the ?unsolvables? of philosophy really starts to bug me- I realize that I have two dissonant cognitions and can?t stand it anymore!

Seriously, I don?t expect anyone to have ?solved? it. I just want to hear how you ?cope? with it. The problem as I see it is as follows:

We utilize the concept of causality to explain all phenomena. When we ask ?why did X do that?? we answer with ?because A led to B led to C? and caused X.? But we peoples have another option to explain why it is we did something. I ask ?Why did you do that?? and you respond ?Because I wanted to? So we have the apparent ability to step outside of the causal chain and cause things to happen independent of past influences on us. We get to take ?responsibility? for our actions. We are held ?accountable.?

Eggh.. I want to write more but I?m kind of sick of thinking about it?. How do you cope with the contradiction between the utility of causality in explaining phenomena and your apparent exemption from the casual chain? It seems one has to go.


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2424250 - 03/12/04 03:50 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There isn't that much of a mystery.

The claim that freewill exists is pretty flawed: nobody even knows what freewill is.

We can think of two distinct possibilities: the mind is random, or the mind is ordered and follows a specific system.

Freewillers think there's a third possibility: free will. "What is free will?", you ask them, and they say "the ability to make choices on your own".

I think humans naturally feel as though they have some special degree of control. That's part of the system involved in making choices.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Phluck]
    #2424383 - 03/12/04 04:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

All right. But having embraced the idea that you are a completely determined thing, have you completely rid yourself of the idea that you make free choices? And so as not to be hypocritical, do you NOT hold others to be accountable for their actions because they are just effects of causes, not having any free choice over their behavior?


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Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2424441 - 03/12/04 04:28 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This is one I think we as humans will be struggling with for awhile.....

Isn't it sort of a discrepancy involving time? Its like.... obviously, what happened before led us to this very moment. The choices that are made in the present are made because of what happened in the moments in the past.. cause and effect.

However. I think it should be noted that cause and effect can't be determined until after it happened... how the hell are you going to be able to determine the future before it happens?

We can predict what happens in the future in vauge, general terms, analyzing a set of variables, where we are at now, watching what has gotten us where we are now.... I suppose the failure to predict the future 100% accurately has to do with not accounting for all the variables, correct?

Well, how do you account for all the variables? To account for all of the variables would be to... figure out Existance, right? How do we do that within Existance? To know every variable... we would have to be outside of the system..... which is why it is so easy to find the cause and effects in the past, as it has already happened.....

Well, cause and effect relies on "time". Free will..... would have to be independant of cause and effect, right? And of time as well?

Hehe, sorry, just thinking "out loud", so to speak.... :lol:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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Anonymous

Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2424448 - 03/12/04 04:34 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

The problem is, you are thinking in black and white. It's not that we either have free will or we don't. It's simply that we don't have 100% free will. Humans are programmable automatons, and very reliable in their Pavlovic responses as well as their survival-instinctual wants and needs. As one becomes more conscious, one gains more free will. This is because as one becomes more conscious, one becomes more aware of choices and gains ability to act on those choices. How much free will does a rock have? None. How much free will do humans have? More than a rock, but not total free will. There are undoubtedly beings in the universe that are more conscious than humans and thus have more free will than us.

See? That wasn't too hard.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2424455 - 03/12/04 04:35 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

"have you completely rid yourself of the idea that you make free choices?"

I'm not sure entirely what you mean. I still hold myself accountable for my actions, and I still carefully consider what I do. This is part of the process of decision making.

Holding others accountable for their actions is an influence upon the system of decision making. By holding others accountable for their actions, you cause them to make better choices.

They don't have free will over their behaviour, but their behaviour is influenced strongly by outside ideas and influences.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: ]
    #2424484 - 03/12/04 04:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Max Headroom said:
The problem is, you are thinking in black and white. It's not that we either have free will or we don't. It's simply that we don't have 100% free will. Humans are programmable automatons, and very reliable in their Pavlovic responses as well as their survival-instinctual wants and needs. As one becomes more conscious, one gains more free will. This is because as one becomes more conscious, one becomes more aware of choices and gains ability to act on those choices. How much free will does a rock have? None. How much free will do humans have? More than a rock, but not total free will. There are undoubtedly beings in the universe that are more conscious than humans and thus have more free will than us.

See? That wasn't too hard.




Thank you. After reading this thread, I almost went:


But, you saved the day.

:wink:


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2424674 - 03/12/04 05:22 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah, great thoughts.

I would say that the notion of ?cause and effect? (or more generally change) and ?time? are inseparable ideas. And so, like you said, if free will is somehow outside of the causal chain, it would have to be ?timeless.?

After reading your post, I?m more hung up on the idea that if freewill is independent of cause and effect, not only is it not a caused thing, but it could have no causal power either- it couldn't influence anything.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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Invisiblebuttonion
Calmly Watching

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: ]
    #2424753 - 03/12/04 05:42 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

There is a deeper philosophical issue. All of the physical world is explained in terms of cause and effect. Atoms, molecules, cells, cell tissue, organs? it all behaves in the way that it does because of prior and current causes and conditions. The human body is made up of these things. How do we ever transcend the cause and effect nature of these things? In terms of biology, we are giant walking cell-cities, cells being giant molecule cities. If we are going to accept the idea that the physical world arises because of prior and current conditions, how are we, an organization of physical things that we know are just effects of past causes, exempt from causality?

Humans are complex, no doubt. Human brains are the most complex forms in the known universe. But all that you described is just highly complex reactionary behavior in response to a bunch of causes.


--------------------
Concepts which have been proved to be useful in ordering things easily acquire such an authority over us that we forget their human origins and accept them as invariable.- Albert Einstein


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Registered: 01/30/03
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2425656 - 03/13/04 12:42 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I don't have anything intelligent to add (suprise suprise), but what part of kansas are you from buttonion?


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Anonymous

Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2425750 - 03/13/04 01:06 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

- Post History Deleted Upon User's Request -


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Offlinepattern
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Registered: 07/19/02
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2426240 - 03/13/04 05:17 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

If everything is causal (no freewill) then people must be held accountable for their actions since: they are destined to repeat the same mistakes again.

If people have freewill then people must be held accountable for their actions since it was their choice, and therefore their fault.

Either way there is still responsibility.


--------------------
man = monkey + mushroom


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: buttonion]
    #2426347 - 03/13/04 06:53 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

buttonion said:
After reading your post, I?m more hung up on the idea that if freewill is independent of cause and effect, not only is it not a caused thing, but it could have no causal power either- it couldn't influence anything.




Hmmm... been doing some thinking.... maybe free will would tie in somehow with awareness? Consciousness? Its like, hhm...... back into the shadows I go.  :laugh:
Peace.  :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefilthysock
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Registered: 01/12/04
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: pattern]
    #2426352 - 03/13/04 06:59 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I think we have complete free will, one hundred percent free will. But we are still chained to cause and effect, meaning we have free will but our choices must always be made according to a certain situation. This does not diminish the fact that we have complete free will. We can always turn left, right, go straight or even go revers (not in time but in choice) but wherever we take these turns we are doing it withing a situation. It seems as though what some of you are saying is that for there to be 100% free will then situation cant exist. Sorry if I have misunderstood.


--------------------
Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: filthysock]
    #2426368 - 03/13/04 07:07 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Inevitably, however, the choice that you make was the ONLY choice you would have made, based on cause and effect. The way you think was all determined by cause and effect, from external cirumstances.

And in your mind, following thoughts. Every thought leads up to the next thought for a specific reason. Cause and effect. Our decision making process relies on cause and effect, as does everything. Our entire way of thinking was formed by a chain of thoughts over time, each individual thought coming about due to a cause before it.

I admit I don't even know what free will is anymore. I thought I knew once and now I don't.... when most people speak of free will, it usually means the freedom to make any available choices that they wish, without pressure from external sources.... However, there is a big difference between that and what some people consider free will.... THAT free will is not free of cause and effect at all.

Of all the available choices that we are free to make in one moment, we can only make one. And the one we make was going to be made anyways, due to the flow of our thoughts, cause and effect. :grin:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefilthysock
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Registered: 01/12/04
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2426436 - 03/13/04 07:48 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Say you like apple and banana just the same. You are a bit hungry for a snack and you have one apple and one banana, your randomn choice goes to show you have free will. Your choice isnt related to chain and effect and how your mind has been created by cause and effect situations throughout your life, in some cases yes, but in some cases you just have to go eeny meeny miney moe, meaning you have free will to make a randomn choice.


--------------------
Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: filthysock]
    #2426445 - 03/13/04 07:54 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

It isn't a random choice, however. Computers aren't even capable of making a random choice. There is always some sort of code involved that allows them to come up with the "random" number.

Have you watched your thoughts in a situation like that? You might even come down to "eeny meeny miney moe", but that doesn't make it a random choice, free of cause and effect. The fact that you did "eeny meeny miney moe" to select which one of the two you were going to eat makes it a rather good example of cause and effect, actually.

You started at one of the two and did the little selection game and the fruit you ended up eating was the effect of that cause. :wink:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefilthysock
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2426642 - 03/13/04 09:48 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Interesting...
I agree with you partially. One example: Right now I had to go to town to buy groceries, I had to do that because I need groceries, I need the groceries because I would die from hunger if I didnt buy my food/groceries... this is a cause and effect reaction. Though I could've done that yesterday. Its only because I decided to do so today that I did it today. It is possible to predict the future, but not to the finest detail, thats what I believe, because when looking at cause and effect chain reactions you can predict the future when it comes to things on a larger scale, but its the less meaningfull things that are more randomn. Things are controlled by cause and effect continuosly, but who is in charge of the cause? Me, you, people...

So when it all comes down to it we are causing the cause, the effect can result in someone elses hands, and thats where they make a choice which will result as an effect in someone elses hands...etc. My point is you always choose a choice by free will as a result of and because of cause and effect. I think its plain to see that free will and cause and effect go hand in hand in some weird codependant way.


--------------------
Magic mushrooms are not addictive, the shroomery is!


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OfflineFrog
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Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: filthysock]
    #2427159 - 03/13/04 01:13 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Yes, I agree with filthysock.

There's no pure free will, and things are not completely predetermined. We have free will within the construct of the results of choices that have already been made.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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InvisibleMal_Fenderson
Space Monkey

Registered: 07/31/03
Posts: 132
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Re: "Freewill problem" check [Re: Frog]
    #2427853 - 03/13/04 05:37 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This just depends on how far you want to take your materialism. If you want to take it to its logical conclusion, of course we have no free will!

I guess we still have some dualists, but I can't imagine that they're appealing to argument.

It seems to me that "free will" cuts much like how "mind" cuts. I can't see many eliminativists w.r.t., say, qualia, suggesting that we also have free will. It depends on what you want to carry to completion, materialism or qualia or free will or whatever thing you desperately want to have but cannot ultiamtely provide a material account of =].


--------------------
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"Better Dead than Red."


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