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 TheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers
Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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 Predeterminism versus Freewill 
#4796941 - 10/13/05 05:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I am a believer of predeterminism in life... I have the firm belief that everything in life has already happened and we are just experiencing the reality... Kind of like, Neo, in the matrix films...
In the movie, Neo asks an oracle some crap about a choice he made... she replies "You've already made the choice... now you have to see why..."
Stephen Hawking, the cambridge physicist, says in a lecture on predeterminism states that "Everything in life is pre-determined, but since you don't know *what* is predetermined, it might as well not be"
I don't believe human beings have freewill, I believe that freewill is just an illusion... if an animal is bound by any kind of mental limitation, it can't be "free"...
But does that mean everything in life is determined?
It seems like my life has been created by the universe... I never conciously chose to be born... I never conciously choose to be educated, I was created by the forces of nature (and my parents!)
Is life, the will of your subconscious? or are you free to live out your destiny the way you choose?
Does anyone else believe that the future is scripted and written in stone? if so, why or why not...!
I've probably rambled a bit, I hope this topic makes sense, i'm new here, nice to meet you all, great forum!
If you believe that you have freewill, listen to this lecture by the all wise Hawking, and let me know your thoughts!
http://tshirtedge.com/prophets shit/hawking.mp3
peace, hope this thread gets some wise replies!
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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 Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: TheProphet]
#4797062 - 10/13/05 06:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Predeterminism helps maintain division between the haves and have-nots. Like organized religion it offers an explanation why you are a slave and will always remain a slave.
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Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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TheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers
Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: Booby]
#4797084 - 10/13/05 06:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Predeterminism helps maintain division between the haves and have-nots. Like organized religion it offers an explanation why you are a slave and will always remain a slave.
Interesting! But I believe the entire human race is like a slave race, we're like ants... busily working towards a common goal, being invisibly "beamed" a life plan, like the queen does to the worker ants... so... what are we busy *about*?
Haves versus the Have nots is quite irrelevent, doesn't matter what party you belong to, you're still a slave...!
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: TheProphet]
#4797090 - 10/13/05 06:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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A slave to the Queen?
--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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TheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers
Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: Booby]
#4797101 - 10/13/05 06:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe a "queen" maybe a omnipotent "god" or maybe you are a slave to your own ego or even a hard core drug... maybe you are a slave to your creditors? maybe your bank? your wife? your kids? i'm not sure... I see slavery in many things these days....
Edited by TheProphet (10/13/05 06:44 AM)
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: TheProphet]
#4797108 - 10/13/05 06:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So we agree on the slavery part.
--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 13,590
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: TheProphet]
#4797122 - 10/13/05 06:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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i like to think that my life is mine, to do with what i please. maybe its an illusion, and all the decisions i make every day are scripted... but where would the fun be in that?
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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TheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers
Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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 Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: wrestler_az]
#4797135 - 10/13/05 06:58 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I definitly agree with you on the slavery part... we are all slaves to something... water/oxygen/food, without this symbian relationship, we would be dead... right? just because in north america these three staples are readily available, does not seperate us from being a slave to these things...
Quote:
i like to think that my life is mine, to do with what i please. maybe its an illusion, and all the decisions i make every day are scripted... but where would the fun be in that?
Maybe, the fun is that you *don't know* whats planned next if you did, it would ruin the life we are experiencing... unless you could somehow look into the future and see what's next... precognition in dreams/deja vu... not sure, still pondering this whole predeterminism theory.
Some physicist's believe there is a mathematical theory/formula that will prove how the universe works... and what's planned... but if there is a "grand unified theory" that means that the grand unified theory dictates the discovery of this grand unified theory... man, I broke my brain...
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 13,590
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: TheProphet]
#4797144 - 10/13/05 07:03 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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when looking at my life as a script, even if its a new script ive never read before with each page having something new for me to read....its still not the same as writing it myself. thats where the fun is lost for me. id rather pretend im in control, even if im not just for that reason.
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: TheProphet]
#4797150 - 10/13/05 07:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Predeterminism is a cop-out. It's like saying "It's God's Will" if Johnny makes 'A's or if Johnny drops out of school.
--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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TheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers
Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: Booby]
#4797158 - 10/13/05 07:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yo wrestler_az, you are correct, you must act as if though you have freewill... even though we are not masters of our fate...
I think predeterminism is a cop-out, if you blame all your problems on predeterminism... which is why, it is key to act as if you have free will, even though, that free will is an illusion... yeah, it is a universal paradox...
http://tshirtedge.com/prophets shit/hawking.mp3
I highly recomend listening to the lecture... the lecture pretty much proves that freewill doesn't exist... which sucks... bow down to the all wise hawking...
Edited by TheProphet (10/13/05 07:14 AM)
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: TheProphet]
#4797170 - 10/13/05 07:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So we agree that predeterminism is both slavery and cop-out.
--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 13,590
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: TheProphet]
#4797172 - 10/13/05 07:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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for the most part, i have come to the conclusion that free will and predeterminism exist simultaneously.
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: wrestler_az]
#4797179 - 10/13/05 07:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I hope I'm predetermined to meet a beutifull lady who is nuts about me, very soon.
--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 13,590
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: Booby]
#4797184 - 10/13/05 07:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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you were born, and you will die. thats where the predeterminism ends. its up to you, and the beautiful young lady to make that happen
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: wrestler_az]
#4797188 - 10/13/05 07:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"lady"
--------------------
Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
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TheProphet
Strange alienposing as ahuman... seekinganswers
Registered: 10/13/05
Posts: 36
Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Last seen: 14 years, 4 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: Booby]
#4797190 - 10/13/05 07:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
for the most part, i have come to the conclusion that free will and predeterminism exist simultaneously.
I think you just solved our mystery!!!
Quote:
I hope I'm predetermined to meet a beutifull young lady who is nuts about me, very soon.
It's never wise to "hope" for anything... hoping for something, only gives you more opportunities to "hope"... in my experience! hope sucks, it's better to act as though you have a hot beautifull woman, predestined to be in your life! 
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 13,590
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: Booby]
#4797191 - 10/13/05 07:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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ya, lady....
did i miss something?
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Booby
Agent Mulder
Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 3,781
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: wrestler_az]
#4797194 - 10/13/05 07:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I was chatting up a 57 year-old
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Let it not be remembered
That mycelium eats detritus and dies
But that life in all it's glory
Counts mycelium to be on it's side.
|
wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 13,590
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
Last seen: 1 day, 19 hours
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: Booby]
#4797196 - 10/13/05 07:28 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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--------------------
how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida 
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Re: Predeterminism versus Freewill [Re: TheProphet]
#4797792 - 10/13/05 10:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Buddhism has its share of deterministic thought: karma and dependent arisings.
Christianity has two distinctive elements that are championed by different theologians: Calvin stressed 'predestination' while Wesley was on the side of free will. Presbyterianism and Methodism are two respective churches which attract these respective attitudes.
In my dissertation, I speculated that the human being, a 'totem-pole-like' structure of chakra motivations (Buddhist Yoga) in which the lower centers of motivation are the 'repositories' so-to-speak of 'inherited' (karmic, genetic, samskaras) and therefore subject to deterministic factors. 'Grafted on' (again, so-to-speak) are the higher chakra centers of motivation in which each are 'nodes' of entire dimensions of motivation whose concentration form part of the human chakra ladder and which manifest free will. The lower human is characterized by deterministic 'animal' [smad] proclivities, while the upper human is characterized by 'angelic' [stod] freedom. The intermediary overlap is particularly 'human' [bar]. (I included the Tibetan names). Thus, while it is recognized that both free will and determinism operate in the human experience, this models lends a rationale: the degree to which humans identify with these three domains (of the "Centauric" human - a Ken Wilbur term) determines to what extent either of these tendencies operate (and make sense to) the human in whom they are operating. I have been extreme in my view of both poles, and have remained in this Middle Way perspective.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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