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InvisibleJared
Stranger
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 8,783
Influencing random numbers...
    #1393419 - 03/19/03 11:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I've heard about people changing the outcome of electronic coin toss machines, which do thousands of tosses in a few seconds...

I made a little program in vb to simulate a coin toss, It chooses randomly between a random number of numbers. It then determines if it is even, or odd.. pretty much the same deal as a coin toss.. On my AXP1800, it does a quarter million tosses in a split second.. I dunno how long it will take on slower machines.. It keeps track of your "high score", and I'm curious to see if any of you telepaths can get a high score... mines 5 =P

Since you probably don't trust me to run a .exe, I'm also posting a link to the source code, so you can check it out and compile it yourself if you want. =P



Source Code in a Zip

Executable

(If the links are broken, Then my connection got interupted and it'll be back up shortly.)


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Jared]
    #1394017 - 03/20/03 05:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

My Dear Jared,

This subject has been covered way too many times. The largest random number influencing experiment in the world has been conducted by a billion people over 50 years. It is called Las Vegas and the results have been null.

'Nuff said!


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Swami]
    #1394150 - 03/20/03 06:05 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well I for one, am going to try some personal experiments with this the next time I'm communing with the sacred mushroom molecules.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
Son of the LordGod Almighty

Registered: 10/12/02
Posts: 446
Loc: Vatican City
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Evolving]
    #1394676 - 03/20/03 08:49 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Are you exerting an effect on the random numbers, or are they effecting you? By that I mean, are you influencing the choice of these numbers at the time of their creation, or do you perceive the outcome from a predetermined future?

Because you used Visual Basic, I can actually answer that question for you. How Visual Basic creates random numbers is with a mathematical formula based on a "seed" number. Because there is a fixed and repeatable formula that the seed is processed with, the numbers created are not truly random. In fact, the determination of the outcomes took place when the formula is seeded (assuming you take the predicted path of continuing the program to a specific point).

Often, the RANDOMIZE TIMER command is used, which seeds the randomization formula with the current time in seconds (since a specific point in time, slips my mind at the moment). If one was to know the exact time that the formula was seeded to and had knowledge of how the formula worked, they could actually get 100% accuracy.

Another possible use of the RANDOMIZE command is to seed it with a constant number, RANDOMIZE 9 for example. After that command is called and until another RANDOMIZE command is executed, the random numbers will follow a predictable sequence. In other words, if the sequence of random numbers went {5, 29, 17, 3, ?} after the formula was seeded with 9, the next time the program ran or the formula was reseeded with 9, the sequence would start over and be identical {5, 29, 17, 3, ?}.

Anyway, my point was, the only influence you have over the numbers is when you ran the program, or how the program was coded. This is to say that you have total control over them, just not psychic control. Doing the same experiment with an actual coin would be more appropriate because the influencing factors are completely out of your physical control.

At most you are portraying accuracy in predicting predetermined future events. Still a neat test as long as you can determine that no one is cheating.

jssmthrfcknchrst


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InvisibleJared
Stranger
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 8,783
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1394731 - 03/20/03 09:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I thought that rnd looked as deep as milliseconds... =\ maybe If I ran the randomize command with a random number generated by the previous round... but.. There's no way to really get real random numbers on x86... =\

Via is working on a new C3 Processor which gets its random numbers through a measure of static energy acrossed the chip.. kinda neat thing is that just having the processor type in your system is all you'll need to benefit from its random qualities.. no specific programming is required to use it =)

Swami, heh.
I was reading an  article which said this in the random number part of the article:

"Over the course of hundreds of runs, researchers have found that subjects do appear to have some influence over machine behavior, though it is very slight."

Usually I find HowStuffWorks.com to be pretty scientifically minded.. so I wanted to see for myself =P

Btw, the article is a pretty good read for both the skeptic and believer :smile:


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
Son of the LordGod Almighty

Registered: 10/12/02
Posts: 446
Loc: Vatican City
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Jared]
    #1396074 - 03/20/03 07:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I have some corrections to make. This is from the MSDN help for Visual Basic

Quote:

Randomize
Randomize uses number to initialize the Rnd function's random-number generator, giving it a new seed value. If you omit number, the value returned by the system timer is used as the new seed value.

If Randomize is not used, the Rnd function (with no arguments) uses the same number as a seed the first time it is called, and thereafter uses the last generated number as a seed value.

Note To repeat sequences of random numbers, call Rnd with a negative argument immediately before using Randomize with a numeric argument. Using Randomize with the same value for number does not repeat the previous sequence.




I believe the way I explained the function was the old BASIC way (QBASIC, VB1.0). This says that the you must actually use the RND function with a negative argument (ie. RND(-1)) to repeat the sequence. Reguardlesss, every variable used to generate the number is in the computer and can be traced/recreated.

Also, the RANDOMIZE function never needs to be called because it defaults to the system timer, the most common seed.

About the TIMER function:
Quote:

Returns a Single representing the number of seconds elapsed since midnight.

In Microsoft Windows the Timer function returns fractional portions of a second.




So yeah, the timer is pretty accurate, but if the seed is ever stored in memory (which is is when the RND function is first called) then it is accessible.

jssmthrfcknchrst


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Invisibledjfrog
omgws!!!1!

Registered: 10/23/00
Posts: 3,710
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1396280 - 03/20/03 08:34 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

RND is the haXX

because there's no way to produce a truely random number with an x86 chip, a friend of mine wrote a program which simulated a decaying radioactive particule. The overall rate of electron loss of such a particule is predictable, but when the individual electrons leave is about as random as it gets. So by monitoring that simulated process he produces random values.


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InvisibleXibalba
Stranger
Registered: 05/14/00
Posts: 2,114
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: djfrog]
    #1396534 - 03/20/03 11:12 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

How did he do that?

As far as I know the mechanism by which a radioactive particle 'chooses' to decay is still unknown to physics.


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Offlineenotake2
Stop Bush's war
 User Gallery

Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 1,457
Loc: Comfy chair in my lounger...
Last seen: 5 years, 5 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Xibalba]
    #1396555 - 03/20/03 11:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I dunno, but my ex-boyfriend managed to produce a mathematical formula for spontaneous combustion in sawdust  :blush:


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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OfflineJackal
Well Versed In Etiquette
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Registered: 10/16/02
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Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Jared]
    #1396597 - 03/21/03 12:39 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Define "Luck"

Is luck, like time, in that it doesn't really exist. Or, is it something that is tangible and can be altered/influenced in a physical way. I think that luck is too overlooked in research. What do you think? I need an answer before the next Greyhound Race!


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OfflineJssMthrFcknChrst
Son of the LordGod Almighty

Registered: 10/12/02
Posts: 446
Loc: Vatican City
Last seen: 12 years, 3 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: djfrog]
    #1397080 - 03/21/03 05:32 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

  So by monitoring that simulated process he produces random values




if you are simulating a random process, it is still not truly random. Unless the computer is receiving information from a seperate location to create the random numbers (as in the chip that measures static see above) then it is just a mathematical formula to simulate random numbers. Even if the static measure chip is used, if it only uses that to seed a forumla and not to create the numbers, it is not truly random. As soon as a "random number" formula is seeded, the results are no longer random. At that point, they are predetermined, depending on the path of actions you follow.

When using these kinds of systems, you can do only one of three things. One, have no psychic effect what so ever. Two, foresee the predetermined outcome. Or three, have a psychic effect backwards in time, indeed effecting the seed of the formula after it has been seeded :smirk:

The first two seem much more likely than the third, but hey, its a strange strange world we live in, and you never know.

jssmthrfcknchrst 


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OfflineAziraphale
Stranger
Registered: 01/23/03
Posts: 11
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1397126 - 03/21/03 05:43 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The encryption program Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) uses the number of milliseconds elapsed between keystrokes to seed the random number generator. It's peculiar, but certainly more interesting and unpredictable than seeding it from an internal input source like the system clock or a previous random number.


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Jared]
    #1397135 - 03/21/03 05:45 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Time to throw in the relevant link, namely, the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research. This stuff proves that consciousness can interfere with electronic number generators to a very slight extent. In other words, not even close to Swami's supposed Las Vegas - size effects, yet statistically relevant, and the experimental procedures very rigid - as yet, no sceptic has been able to show the flaw. In still other words, PEAR proves the paranormal (across space and time (!)), only that the effects are far too small to influence reality, except, perhaps, as a kind of chaotic butterfly effect.   

I doubt that you can measure the effects with your computer program, but good luck, anyway.  :wink: 


Edited by Nomad (03/21/03 05:59 AM)


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
 User Gallery
Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: JssMthrFcknChrst]
    #1397147 - 03/21/03 05:46 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

A point missed.....................once the numbers are "influenced" they are NO LONGER RANDOM! So once a true random number generator quits spitting random numbers due to a Svengali's mental pressuring all will be revealed :grin:
WR


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To old for this place


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Nomad]
    #1397166 - 03/21/03 05:49 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

... and what would you do if the paranormal was undeniably true, but endlessly boring?

http://www.princeton.edu/~pear/correlations.pdf


Edited by Nomad (03/21/03 05:51 AM)


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Invisiblewhiterasta
Day careobserver
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Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 1,780
Loc: Oregon
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Nomad]
    #1397226 - 03/21/03 06:11 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

... and what would you do if the paranormal was undeniably true, but endlessly boring?



Studying the paranormal is akin to studying a microscope through it's own lens,what is percievable is but a fraction of the whole.One would tire of the endless limit on perception and grow bored.
But suppose ther existed a group of substances which could widen ones perception beyond just the lens?Would the paranormal be as "boring"?WR


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To old for this place


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 8 years, 11 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: whiterasta]
    #1397798 - 03/21/03 09:23 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I like your microscope metaphor, but, in answering your rhetorical question  :wink: I have to say, yes, the paranormal would still be boring. Take, as an arbitrary example, that psyball stuff which has been floating around here some time ago. I mean, I can honestly say that I believe it to be possible, but why on earth would anybody want to train ten fucking years just so that he can make a stupid glowing ball in the darkness? What could be more boring than that? And the things you could do in those ten years! What if you would, instead, spend these years getting a firm grasp of, say, fractal mathematics - you could do a lot more mindblowing stuff than those childish glowing balls. Or, take telepathy. What could be more boring than reading the mind of the average guy from the street? If I'm interested in sex & football, I'd rather turn on the TV...   


Edited by Nomad (03/21/03 09:25 AM)


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Offlinefredthetree
Stranger

Registered: 09/29/02
Posts: 473
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Jared]
    #1399549 - 03/22/03 02:58 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i just downloaded that program, and i got 9 correct in a row (all even too...) :smile: 


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Invisiblexganon
polydrug abuser
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 109
Loc: here
Re: Influencing random numbers... [Re: Jared]
    #1399742 - 03/22/03 06:18 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I've always gone here for that kind of stuff.

http://www.mdani.demon.co.uk/para/parapsy.htm

you'll want the PK test, the PK trainer, or the ESP test

I'm on acid, weed, and energy drinks right now and didn't get any significant results on the PK test or your test. I faintly remember scoring well on said PK test while very high on cough syrup though.


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Please remove all dollar signs from my listed contact information


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