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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/18/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Ego Death]
    #1758897 - 07/29/03 06:25 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

The physical dimension is not changing but the way you recieve it is.

Well said.

The universe exists whether there is a consciousness there to perceive it or not.

Insects perceive reality differently than birds do, but that doesn't change the fact that reality is there. Humans, due to their ability to augment their senses through instrumentation, have the most complete perception of the universe, but "the most complete" is not equivalent to "complete".

pinky


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OfflineQuadrant6
Blood Red Eyes

Registered: 07/24/03
Posts: 89
Loc: Holland
Last seen: 15 years, 3 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Phred]
    #1759210 - 07/29/03 09:27 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

If we were blind and they made a pill that would allow you to see for 6 hours, would that too be a hallucination?


--------------------
"Time is the substance from which I am made. Time is a river which carries me along, but I am the river; it is a tiger that devours me, but I am the tiger; it is a fire that consumes me, but I am the fire."
Jorge Luis Borges

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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Quadrant6]
    #1759287 - 07/29/03 10:25 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Hmm... interesting point Quadrant...

Quote:

Wow, that was very well written and I agree with alot of it. Im to stupid to come up with a bunch of counterpoints and stuff, swami INC.




Hahahahhaha.. You don't / didn't used to play Everquest did you? *sigh* I hate that game.. such an addiction..


As for the hallucination thing, technically Seritonin makes you hallucinate, it's just not visual... Tactile and Auditory hallucinations are still hallucinations.. Just because our sight is the most relied upon sense, doesn't mean it's the only one that matters... If DMT gives you the feeling of contact entities not of our physical world, are they no-less real to those that witness them? If two people on DMT do equal amounts at equal times, yet perceive different realities, is it not possible that different realities were accessed (assuming what one witnesses is a reality)?

People are different - this cannot be disputed...
Quote:


DMT can induce the feeling of contact with another entity. But these are only real within your mind, somebody on a different DMT experience will not see what you see and nor will people without these chemicals in their mind.



Different people would require different amounts for an equal trip.. one person who weighs 80 kg's paired with another person who weighs 80 kg's could do equal amounts of DMT and have different trips completely... No two brains are alike...


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: nubious]
    #1759367 - 07/29/03 11:02 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I believe that there is no purpose here in this Universe, and it was meant to be like that. The beauty of this is that WE decide our purpose here, we don't have to be subjected to other's views on why we are here....
Well, we are probably here to evolve... the point of life is life. We might be here to learn the lessons necessary to evolve to something higher, and realizing their is no ultimate purpose may be a part of that...

Quote:

DanoEoboy said:
Shrooms can make straight lines appear wavy. DMT can induce the feeling of contact with another entity. But these are only real within your mind, somebody on a different DMT experience will not see what you see and nor will people without these chemicals in their mind.




I disagree with this... People DO see the same thing, while they are together. There has been trip reports about people walking over a bridge, all tripping, and not saying anything... and then they see exacty copies of them walking on the path underneath the bridge. There was no communication between them to influence what they saw... and they all saw exactly the same thing. I read one, once, where a guy tripping was talking to his girlfriend on the phone; she started going to his house after they hung up, but yet they were still able to communicate with each other through their heads....
His girlfriend later confirmed what was going on, and she wasn't on any drugs.
They won't see what you see? There is a lot of evidence that they DO see what you see...

Some of these drugs activate chemicals or parts of our mind that are not created on their own, naturally anymore, because of natural selection. It makes sense to to me, back in the day, these chemicals running their course would make them apt to prey, or would inhibit reproduction. However, now, we do not really need to worry about those things anymore, at least not 100% of the time, and we should be working on getting these parts of our brain active again... so we can perceive a more total image of reality.
It is hard to accept that this reality is barely accurate, since this idea is genetically supported, because of natural selection. Obviously, it is the people that are doing drugs or doing extensive innerwork that are coming across new ways to look at reality... whatever way they are doing it, they are reactivating these chemicals and parts of our brains.
Its not like this reality is so fucking great, anyways.
Peace.




--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineJhadAgainstReality
the only thinglonger than myname is my penis

Registered: 06/18/03
Posts: 403
Loc: england
Last seen: 20 years, 5 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1759405 - 07/29/03 11:24 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

fucking hell....keep talking you brainy deepthinking fucks


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"Listen Bush, i dont have any weapons. are you listening asshole? i dont have any fucking weapons! whats your problem, you fucking prick? Do you, like, WANT to go to war or something?! hey! whats all that laughter? whats so fucking funny?! Bush? BUSH! *click* Hello? HELLO?"

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1759471 - 07/29/03 11:55 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I susposse we will, now that you have given us your permissions...
Thanks.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: JhadAgainstReality]
    #1759491 - 07/29/03 12:10 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

The reality you see while under the influence of shrooms or DMT is a chemical alteration of how you are recieving the physical and spiritual connection.

Well, that's just materialism and is worthless. Saying "love is just a chemical" or the "hallucinations are a chemical" don't actually go anywhere in the land of explaining anything.

Shrooms can make straight lines appear wavy. DMT can induce the feeling of contact with another entity. But these are only real within your mind, somebody on a different DMT experience will not see what you see and nor will people without these chemicals in their mind.

I've actually had full-on group hallucinations on mushrooms.. different doses, different body weights.. it's pretty fucked up. But I don't think we need to get into unverifiable anecdotes for me to get across what I'm saying. And let me direct you towards Michael Harner's essay The Sound of Rushing Water.. I think they have it on erowid. It explains how ayahuasqueros use their magic to heal, and it takes place in an invisible (to the serotonin-users) world that shamans on ayahuasca can percieve and manipulate things in.

But my point isn't that drug trips are real, cause that's a dead end argument not worth having right now. My basic argument is that the only reason we all share this point of view of reality being real is because if we didn't then we wouldn't be here to have that opinion. If you take that a step further we have been removed from the land of reality being whatever we make it and through the chemical needs of this carbon-based construct have found ourselves incapable of deciding what's real and what's not. I suggest therefore that this reality of things you can touch and see and others can touch and see is as worthless as any delusion. Not that I can actually escape this graspable reality. Basically, I have less respect for my everyday perceptions than most.

The universe exists whether there is a consciousness there to perceive it or not.

true.. but most of the universe we are incapable of percieving because it's made of dark matter. Although the universe is here, most of it isn't too.

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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1759508 - 07/29/03 12:23 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I believe that there is no purpose here in this Universe, and it was meant to be like that. The beauty of this is that WE decide our purpose here, we don't have to be subjected to other's views on why we are here....





But dont we have a purpose? Before we became a society to function and communicate such as we do. Before we had developed agriculture and a means to break from our hunter gatherer days. We did have a purpose... that purpose was all we knew. The hunger in our bellies, the birth of our children. We knew our purpose was to survive. Not until i think we get into religion do we see a purpose other than that of our own survival. We start to delve into ayhuasca, jesus, the koran, the heroes journey. The odyessey, Homer. But maybe i see your on the right track. Maybe we have just evolved to that point of making the suggestion or question to ourselves if we have a purpose or not. And that is the ultimate guide for ones life. OR at least a divider... a splitting off of our race?.

But most of all to what you said... That we dont have to be subjected to others views... is tottaly not the case. I can deny it all i want. But i know when i go outside, i am subject to the will of anyone. If someone decided to just crash into my car on the highway. I had no part in that. And this i think has become the pin point for our purpose as a society. OR as a species. Our purpose is to evolve now our society. those things we see as the foundation of "who we are". If we cannot get passed our wars and our troubles to understand one another... i think stagnation will only continue. And that opens ourself to the risk of extinction, or submission.


but for the most part i agree with you, these are all valid questions in my book. I just think there is where more to understand than we have the capability alone to know right now. Only time will tell some things.


--------------------
What?

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Zero7a1]
    #1759543 - 07/29/03 12:45 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

We really don't have to think about survival in the way that we used to... our ego was basically developed to help us survive... this is where say security issues come in. Flight or flight. However, we are passed the point where our survival is an ongoing issue. We are not actually faced with very many situations that actually require flight or flight. However, we still use all of those automatic thought processes in every aspect of life. We force things.
We have a lot of "purposes", implied by society, morals, our own wants and needs, but how many are necessary? I doubt that any of them truly are.... except for maybe the whole evoultion to the higher densities... which I think accepting this is a part of.
Other people CAN impose their wills on you, and I think that this ties in. Just like you said, it is everyone that has to evolve. We are all one, this is a group movement. We can't impose our wills on them, force them to realize this, we can only live our life from these higher centers and they will learn from us...
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
T'was born oftrue in the yearof the cock!

Registered: 04/07/03
Posts: 1,500
Loc: a human-infested anthill
Last seen: 20 years, 6 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1759585 - 07/29/03 12:59 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I think what we all have to keep in mind is the two following truths:

1- a physical universe exists. It is concrete and real, but! it is in constant rapid change, constantly exploding and reshaping itself (geological time-scale) So, really, the only thing concrete about this physical reality is that it is constantly moving and shifting forms (like a river)

2-a human, or any other lifeform, can never truly experience this physical reality, because this physical reality is filtered through our senses. An eagle percieves reality in a way that is most beneficial for its survival, same goes for a human, a snake and a mouse. We will never be able to see reality, true reality with our senses, our senses can only show us a faulty reflection.....like a fun-house mirror.


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enjoy the entertaining indentity i have constructed for you while you can.

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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 months, 1 day
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Dogomush]
    #1759609 - 07/29/03 01:11 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I suggest therefore that this reality of things you can touch and see and others can touch and see is as worthless as any delusion. Not that I can actually escape this graspable reality.




The fact that you can't escape reality is exactly the point. As Philip K. Dick said: Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

Our images and maps of reality are never complete, they are sometimes incorrect, and they are always colored by our predefined categories. But they differ from any random delusion by actually being images that have some true correspondence with reality.

I think it's a mistake to discard materialism just because reductionist materialism doesn't explain much. Instead we should simply take into account that the non-reducible compositional properties of material things have the power to cause effects.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1759879 - 07/29/03 02:44 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

You didn't think to Sclorch-proof this thread did ya? :wink:

Dogomush: I don't think you can brush off a DMT experience as invalid. Some would call it a hallucination, but if DMT produces hallucinations, then why doesn't serotonin, or any other endogenous neurotransmitter? Why isn't EVERYTHING classified as a "hallucination."

Actually, this is missing something important.
Serotonin is regulated by the brain.  You've heard of SSRIs haven't you?  Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors?  In addition to the reuptake process, the brain also regulates serotonin levels with monoamino oxidase (you've heard of MAOIs like harmine, right?).  Psychedelics are not regulated by the brain (though they are eventually broken down).

Additionally, I find the term "hallucinogen" to be problematic.  I've never really thought any of the insane visuals I've seen were real.  I knew I was on a drug.  But this is for another thread.


Our physical survival is the filter on reality. Any reality we percieve that doesn't promote our survival and reproduction is a worthless reality. It doesn't matter that there are infinite ways to understand the universe and navigate it, they are all invalid.

Maybe you've missed all my lectures on how the locus of selection has shifted from genes to memes.  This shift has rendered the fitness equation so complicated that entire fields of study are devoted to it (psychology, philosophy, sociology...). Also, I've noted your sarcasm and have quickly dismissed it as exorbitant rhetoric. :wink:

Quadrant6: If we were blind and they made a pill that would allow you to see for 6 hours, would that too be a hallucination?

A shitty analogy that works under the assumption that psychedelics transmit knowledge.  It's a DRUG.  It merely gives your mind the opportunity to look at things from a very-skewed perspective.

nubious: As for the hallucination thing, technically Seritonin makes you hallucinate, it's just not visual...

No, technically serOtonin does not provide for hallucinations.  IT IS REGULATED, READ: it is part of the perceptive instrumentation of the brain.

fireworks_god: I disagree with this... People DO see the same thing, while they are together. There has been trip reports about people walking over a bridge, all tripping, and not saying anything... and then they see exacty copies of them walking on the path underneath the bridge. There was no communication between them to influence what they saw... and they all saw exactly the same thing.

These kinds of experiences happen to me, too.
HOWEVER, I attribute this phenomenon to similar mindsets and settings (and mere coincidences that are rendered EPIC due to a drug experience).  Being on the same page is not evidence for telepathy.

Dogomush: Well, that's just materialism and is worthless. Saying "love is just a chemical" or the "hallucinations are a chemical" don't actually go anywhere in the land of explaining anything.

You're half right.  Hallucinations aren't JUST a chemical... they are the interaction between your brain and the chemical AND your brain's subsequent reaction to this interaction.

Dogomush:  I suggest therefore that this reality of things you can touch and see and others can touch and see is as worthless as any delusion. Not that I can actually escape this graspable reality. Basically, I have less respect for my everyday perceptions than most.

This would be quite easy to defeat.  Let's play a little Survivor: Shroomery.  A tribe of tripping Shroomerites vs. a tribe of non-tripping Shroomerites.  Let's see who can camp out the longest.  We don't need a prophet to tell us what the outcome will be.  The trippers will end up leaving first.  Maybe they'd come back after a nice stay at the local Hilton with stories about alien abduction and whatnot. hehehe

Dogomush: true.. but most of the universe we are incapable of percieving because it's made of dark matter. Although the universe is here, most of it isn't too.

Dark matter is still just speculation (though interesting).  This also isn't a valid argument... humans have survived for a long time in this "reality" and we've seen nothing of dark matter.  Also, we have no idea if dark matter even interacts with other matter. 


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1759934 - 07/29/03 03:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sclorch said:
fireworks_god: I disagree with this... People DO see the same thing, while they are together. There has been trip reports about people walking over a bridge, all tripping, and not saying anything... and then they see exacty copies of them walking on the path underneath the bridge. There was no communication between them to influence what they saw... and they all saw exactly the same thing.

These kinds of experiences happen to me, too.
HOWEVER, I attribute this phenomenon to similar mindsets and settings (and mere coincidences that are rendered EPIC due to a drug experience). Being on the same page is not evidence for telepathy.




I didn't say anything about telepathy. I was just replying to what he said, which was something like "people don't experience the same things on mushrooms".... That's what I was replying to.
And actually, what about my second example? That kind of shit happens, which does suggest telepathy. Not that we can hold his account as true, or anything, but that is reported.
Peace.



--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
Loc: The Canadian west coast
Last seen: 19 years, 1 month
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1760116 - 07/29/03 04:04 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

The fact that you can't escape reality is exactly the point. As Philip K. Dick said: Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.

Yeah, but it would go away if natural selection hadn't forced it on us. If we didn't need it to survive, we wouldn't have it. Survival is an arbitrary need dictated by the worthless arrangement of molecules that is our body.

You're half right. Hallucinations aren't JUST a chemical... they are the interaction between your brain and the chemical AND your brain's subsequent reaction to this interaction.

To me you're just saying the same thing "it's just a chemical" only with another few words "it's just a chemical .. and your brain"

Well shit I gotta go, sclorch, elaborate on your genes and memes, I don't know if it's relevant or not to my original point. gotta run.

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Dogomush]
    #1760275 - 07/29/03 04:46 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

To me you're just saying the same thing "it's just a chemical" only with another few words "it's just a chemical .. and your brain"

You're throwing away the baby with the bath water, my friend.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Sclorch]
    #1760982 - 07/29/03 08:32 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nubious: As for the hallucination thing, technically Seritonin makes you hallucinate, it's just not visual...

No, technically serOtonin does not provide for hallucinations. IT IS REGULATED, READ: it is part of the perceptive instrumentation of the brain.





Regulated or not, it makes you feel something that you don't feel when sober... Is that not classified as a hallucination?


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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OfflineDrubuShrume
EAT ME - I'm afungi

Registered: 05/14/02
Posts: 449
Loc: Right where I need to be
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: nubious]
    #1761491 - 07/29/03 11:40 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I've actually had full-on group hallucinations on mushrooms.. different doses, different body weights.. it's pretty fucked up


Once my friends and I were all shroomin in the basement, and the music we were listening to was playing backwards, except for the chorus. Every one of us witnesses this. There were 4 of us shrooming. I can't explain that shit.


--------------------
AH HA....

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InvisibleEgo Death
Justadropofwaterinanendlesssea
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/27/03
Posts: 10,447
Loc: The War Machine
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1761973 - 07/30/03 04:37 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Interesting!!!

I would love to believe communal tripping (seeing the same). But did a few tests myself whilst tripping and whilst not with friends that where.

I can't prove either way, but, it does seem to be suggestability. Groups of people in the shroom mindset because have been getting along so well reaching a point of unity are more likely to beleive things suggested or even get confused and beleive they saw it.

This has happened to me and I have induced in other trippers by telling them a vision that really I wasn't having but as I said it, it became a reality for everyone. I don't beleive this to be physically real though. I totally agree about our senses, I mean if our eyes were geiger counters then we all be using radiation as a reference.


--------------------

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OfflineTavarua
A Nobody

Registered: 07/02/03
Posts: 145
Loc: Califuckinfornia
Last seen: 18 years, 5 months
Re: I, me alone, have solved all your problems.. behold! [Re: Ego Death]
    #1761983 - 07/30/03 04:51 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I remember ingesting 2.0 grams of mushrooms at a beach in Central Cali, I never felt a come up and didn't notice anything mushroomy until my best friend told me to look at a patch of sand he had himself transfixed upon...

I watched as the sand slllowwly heaved up and down. Like the earth just let out a sigh. This happened a few more times, and then the sand cracked and started to shift away from the center as if there were something giant under there.

I looked over my shoulder and my younger brother had just wandered over and was also staring at that patch of sand, I knew without even asking that he saw what I saw.


--------------------
Gotta love life cuz life be lovin me

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