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Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation...
    #2144956 -

Seems like it's quite common to hallucinate while doing
insight meditation.
If a quiet, present mind is supposed to make us more awake then
how come it causes dellusions ?
According to psychologists and experiments with sensory
deprivation the mind will create sensations, images, sounds
etc when it's quiet/bored. This would explain
the hallucinations while meditating...
This seems to be contradictory to the claim of meditation
making one more awake and opening up to reality...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2144984 -

yes when we are more aware you do become delusional. maybe that's the joke. so have a laugh...the joke's on us


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2144985 -

According to psychologists and experiments with sensory
deprivation the mind will create sensations, images, sounds
etc when it's quiet/bored. This would explain
the hallucinations while meditating...

The fact that they observed more hallucinatory experience when the mind was quiet doesn't explain why this is so.

Noticed your recent attack on the practice and implications of meditation lately, you have a bad experience with it, or just exercising your right to question? ; )

Peace.


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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: chunder]
    #2144990 -

chunder said:
According to psychologists and experiments with sensory
deprivation the mind will create sensations, images, sounds
etc when it's quiet/bored. This would explain
the hallucinations while meditating...

The fact that they observed more hallucinatory experience when the mind was quiet doesn't explain why this is so.



true, but I think hallucinations would impair daily functioning.
So on a practical level, it doesn't seem to be positive.

chunder said:
Noticed your recent attack on the practice and implications of meditation lately, you have a bad experience with it, or just exercising your right to question? ; )
Peace.


A bit of both to be honest. I used to be a big proponent of
meditation, but I've had some terrifying and hellish experiences
while meditating whose effects have persisted for a long time
(and still persisting actually), so it's made me reconsider
the benefits of meditation...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2144999 -

Well, you need to be true to your own experiences, so if meditation has caused more anguish than it has provided positive growth, then fuck it! Or perhaps a different kind of meditative technique is the answer?

But yeah, if something doesn't work then who needs it? :laugh:


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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: chunder]
    #2145027 -

Not all visionary experiences are hallucinations.


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...or something






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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: chunder]
    #2145055 -

chunder said:
Well, you need to be true to your own experiences, so if meditation has caused more anguish than it has provided positive growth, then fuck it! Or perhaps a different kind of meditative technique is the answer?

But yeah, if something doesn't work then who needs it? :laugh: 


yup, part of me still wants to believe that meditation is the
path to liberation and the end of suffering simply because it's
nice to believe that there is good at our very core
(according to Buddha). i.e. that there we are intrinsically
at peace and blissful. But unfortunately, my experience has
revealed otherwise... 


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2145351 -

Quote:
yup, part of me still wants to believe that meditation is the
path to liberation and the end of suffering simply because it's
nice to believe that there is good at our very core
(according to Buddha). i.e. that there we are intrinsically
at peace and blissful. But unfortunately, my experience has
revealed otherwise...


But unfortunately meditation is only half of the equation. The other half is living in a good way. These two help each other. During meditation one still has thoughts that arise. These thoughts are also karma. They can be good or bad. These thoughts depend on our karma. Until liberation even the quality of meditation will be stained by relative tint. So do some deeds of generosity and kindness, and this will raise the standard of thought in general as well.


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...or something






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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: eve69]
    #2145387 -

eve69 said:
So do some deeds of generosity and kindness, and this will raise the standard of thought in general as well.


No offense, but isn't that a bit presumptious ?
I mean you're assuming that I don't do/havn't done anything
generous or kind ?


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2145437 -

No, but everyone can do better. Before you look within my words look within yourself. I'm just trying to help. If you're having shit meditations then it's you that needs help, not me. That's not presumptious. I don't know you. I'll be the first to admit it. That ones thoughts are also karma is a fact by definition of karma. Thoughts are action, even though on a subtle level. Just as when action is good or bad it's a result of karma, so also when thoughts are good or bad it's a result of karma. That's not me saying that, it's just the way it is. Sorry.


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...or something






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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: eve69]
    #2146265 -

Sill curious about why one hallucinates while doing
"mindfulness/awareness" meditation :confused:
I mean if it's making one more dellusional how is it
bringing one closer to "REALITY" or making one
more "AWAKE" ?


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2146274 -

why are you assuming that the imagery is a physical "byproduct" of your brain? couldn't your bad trips be generated from your mind?



--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Malachi]
    #2146486 -

Malachi said:
why are you assuming that the imagery is a physical "byproduct" of your brain?  couldn't your bad trips be generated from your mind?

 


1) Trips ?  :confused: I'm talking about meditation
2) if u mean "couldn't your bad meditative experiences
be generated from your mind?"
um...that's exactly what I mean...so I'm wondering how meditation
is making me more awake if instead it's making my mind generate
more illusions ?


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2152241 -

lucid, why don't you ask your teacher for advice? maybe you're just not doing the meditation right and need guidance?


--------------------
Ko-razume-shvati-ce

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Anastasia]
    #2152454 -

Anastasia said:
lucid, why don't you ask your teacher for advice? maybe you're just not doing the meditation right and need guidance? 


I don't have a teacher...
To quote the Buddha "I am a light unto myself"
and I'm kinda lost in the dark right now :grin: 


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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2153512 -

If a quiet, present mind is supposed to make us more awake then how come it causes dellusions ?

Why did you even start meditating in the first place when you are not even buying into the concept? It doesn't cause the delusions, those are fragments of mind you are holding onto.

People have answered your questions several times about meditation, but you keep revisiting the same things over and over. My advice is just stop doing it if you think it causes more problems than it solves for you.


--------------------
I am what Willis was talkin' bout.

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Jellric]
    #2153569 -

everything causes delusions. The sun causes delusions, your girlfriend causes delusions. Delusions cause delusions

and so forth

thus is the nature of the human mind.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Jellric]
    #2156355 -

Jellric said:
If a quiet, present mind is supposed to make us more awake then how come it causes dellusions ?

Why did you even start meditating in the first place when you are not even buying into the concept?



My understanding was that you don't have to "buy into the concept",
in fact that's what appealed to me so much about it...that I just
had to try and experience it myself and my experiences havn't been
so good.

Jellric said:
It doesn't cause the delusions, those are fragments of mind you are holding onto.



yes, but I thought meditation was supposed to bring one closer
to reality not to framents of mind.

Jellric said:
People have answered your questions several times about meditation, but you keep revisiting the same things over and over.
My advice is just stop doing it if you think it causes more problems than it solves for you



There's a hint of furstration in your reply. Sorry if my attempts
to relate my expeirnces (which I thought would be valuable to share)
and my insights about them and to try and understand what/why
I'm going through this is causeing u frustration. Perhaps I will
stop posting here.


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Jellric]
    #2157403 -

I actually agree with Jellric, i dont think there was any frustration in what he said.. but I wouldn't say stop meditating id say find a teacher if you dont have one. he might be more competent to explain it to you and guide you.


--------------------
Ko-razume-shvati-ce

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Anastasia]
    #2157404 -

btw how did you find out about Vipassena Meditation? or is that just an old subject for the forum?


--------------------
Ko-razume-shvati-ce

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Anastasia]
    #2157945 -

there is much more than this "delusion" many call "reality"


--------------------
i am another you

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Anastasia]
    #2157959 -

Anastasia said:
btw how did you find out about Vipassena Meditation? or is that just an old subject for the forum?


Well, I've been meditating with mantras since I was
14 (I spent a large portion of my youth in the East).
I got into Insight Meditation about 2 years ago (i'm 27) after
reading much Krishnamurti, "The power of Now" and
books by Mark Epstien (psychology n meditation -
"Thoughts without a Thinker" "Going to Peices without
falling apart" "Going on Being") etc
I really started to get into it about a year ago after
my mind started to quiet down on it's own (till then
things were ok)...then I took some shrooms and the
rest is history and common knowledge on this forum...
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...rt=all&vc=1


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2159117 -

oooops.  didnt even look into any other forums,sorry! found the page quite randomly to be honest, I was just looking up Vipassena Meditation on the net. will get back to you after I read the other forum...seems quite short :wink: 


--------------------
Ko-razume-shvati-ce

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Anastasia]
    #2160033 -

From a purely Buddhist point of view, meditation when performed correctly creates the conditions for energetic currents to flow more freely within our system of energy wheels (chakras). In states of deep concentration, our body naturally seeks to correct imbalance within it's energy wheels. This can create all sorts of side effects such as involuntary movements, feelings of hunger or fatigue, emotional turmoil, conceptual excitement, even hallucinations. My own experience with meditation "side effects" has been on occasions when I have been manipulating a specific energy wheel.

Let's say we're working with the heart chakra -- attempting to place a beneficial virtue such as compassion into our mental continuum (the mind is located in the heart in Buddhist physiology). When we have profound success with this form of placement, a great deal of energy can be stirred in this energy wheel, which may spill over into other energy wheels such as the conceptual wheel. This can cause many uncontrolled thoughts to occur.

Also, our posture can determine how freely energy flows within our subtle bodies. Personally, maintaining the Vajra posture keeps me very centered and alert.

If experienced meditators out there are interested in an experiment, try for me reciting the mantra "Om vajrapanni huum" while comfortable in meditation. Let me know if you encounter any interesting experiences! Please do not research Bodhisattva Vajrapani prior to making this attempt, as it will spoil the experiment by creating expectations in your mind. PM me with any results!

(OM VAJ RA PAH NEE HOOM)


--------------------


:poison: Dark Triangles - New Psychedelic Techno Single - Listen on Soundcloud :poison:
Gyroscope full album available SoundCloud or MySpace

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Ped]
    #2164737 -

ok.i'm back?actually managed to read all the posts!:) And to be honest, don?t really feel I have much else to say, people really did make a lot of good points! I would disagree on one thing though, you don?t really have to take shrooms to start thinking about what you guys have been discussing in the forum, I?ve never tried them (I?m not saying I wouldn?t) but some of the questions you?ve been posing coincide with my own and therefore I am truly hoping someone will come with an answer :smile:that?s one of the reasons why staying alive is a better option than ending your life-you still have a chance of figuring out the TRUTH. Anyway, I think that ending one?s life is similar to being a coward ?which is still ok, but I believe in reincarnation and that it is not possible to escape from one?s frustrations and unresolved issues.
One more comment on that forum?I really agree with people who said that thinking about it reinforces it. As you seem to be interested in science and it means a lot to you that something is scientifically proven, it seems that this is. I just finished reading a book on ?madness? which concludes that this is so. It is a process that happens in everyone?s minds, so it can be said that the ?normality? is in continuity with ?madness??it really depends on what kind of thoughts are being reinforced in your mind!  This kind of feedback loops are known on molecular levels in many different cell mechanisms as well. It really is true. Not that that tells you how to stop the reinforcement, I will not refer you to the book, cause it?s around 650 pages, but as you seem interested in reading, try another book?it?s by Herman Hesse?s,its called Siddhartha! It is very short but inspiring! He has lots of other books as well, but I cant say they are really optimistic?I love them for their complexity though.

Anyways,how are you feeling now? The last post on that forum was in May if I remember correctly! Did you try Kundalini in the end? I do think practicing yoga would definitely help you! As an extreme example of how it can help you (appart from ?being fit and tone your muscles? that everyone seems to talk about), yoga helped one of my close friends stop taking cocaine.it gave him something to enjoy that is not trivial.

Ok, enough for now,considering I started this post by saying I havent got much to say :wink:

Love,
A.
 


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Ko-razume-shvati-ce

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Anastasia]
    #2165346 -

maybe you should read "turning the mind into an ally" by sakyong mipham rinpoche. he has some very good insight as to how to properly meditate, which might help you.

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2165678 -

Altered states have the common characteristic of hallucinations and meditation is an altered state. I seem to remember reading that you do like 3 hours meditation at a time. I reckon maybe it would help if you shorten the amount of time you spend meditating. Maybe then you would achieve a balance. If that doesn't work you could also maybe try going back to the mantra meditation for a while or another type and see if anything changes. I read in a health magazine that 75% of people (westerners) who attend the vipassana retreats have significant depression and/or anxiety when they return. They do 10 hours a day meditation there for 10 days straight, though maybe you are experiencing the ill effects on a more minor level. Not sure if the dep/anxiety is limited to vipassana, though maybe.


--------------------
Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: enotake2]
    #2166210 -

Quote:
maybe you should read "turning the mind into an ally" by sakyong mipham rinpoche.  he has some very good insight as to how to properly meditate, which might help you.   


i second that.  great book  :thumbup:
when the mind is truely quiet, clear...there is nothing (i.e. no hallucinations).  some, no one specific, but some have this misunderstanding of meditation...it is not day dreaming, it is not the threshold of napping, and it is not thinking with the eyes shut.


--------------------
"...yet another in a long series of diversions an attempt to avoid responsibility."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Viaggio]
    #2166223 -

Quote:
Quote:
maybe you should read "turning the mind into an ally" by sakyong mipham rinpoche.  he has some very good insight as to how to properly meditate, which might help you.   


i second that.  great book  :thumbup:
when the mind is truely quiet, clear...there is nothing (i.e. no hallucinations).  some, no one specific, but some have this misunderstanding of meditation...it is not day dreaming, it is not the threshold of napping, and it is not thinking with the eyes shut.


um, my belief exactly, that's why one doesn't need to read another
book to be able to meditate (that only helps reassure the ego).
I mean the principle of Vipassena/Insight/Mindfulness meditation is
quite simple. In it's truest sense it is simply observing thoughts
and allowing them to be. This has the side effect of quieting
the mind - I can personally vouch for this since I've experienced
it. However, I can also say that in my personal experience in that
state of quiet mind one can Hallucinate quite vividly. Also,
in my personal experience, meditation has increased my Depression
and Anxiety. Like enotake pointed out this is a common effect.
New-Age proponents will always have the catch-22 of "well it's
because you're not doing it correctly", which, of course,
is impossible to prove since it's not something that can be
measured in any way.
In any case, in my experience, meditation does have dangers and
it's troubling to see how advocates completely disregard these
and/or deny them. Meditation is an altered state and has it's
dangers. Personally, I choose to continue to meditate simply
out of curiosity - which is the proper way to meditate in any
case (i.e. dispassionately and without expectation of peace or
some great reward or some blissful mindstate). If I ever
attain the Big E (no pun on Ecstacy :grin: ) I'll let u
all know :smirk:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2166972 -

Ya, on a meditation tape I have it says to have the "quiet expectation of non-expectation" and I actually found that quite helpful in producing the meditative state.


--------------------
Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: enotake2]
    #2167077 -

20 plus years of various deep forms of awareness meditation and I can confirm that meditating doesn't make life easier, and it doesn't make magic happen, and it doesn't make one spontaneously successful without effort, and it doesn't make one's mentality easier to fix, and it doesn't make ones emotions easier to satisfy. It doesn't do alot of things. But that's not what it's about. Meditation is about knowing oneself and what one is and what the potentials of the mind are and what life is. Par tof that is the vastness of the mind, and the vastness of the heart, and the vastness of time and also of experience. It makes one feel especially small and worthless often, but then also that humility is a very becoming characteristic because it's a fact. People who play with huge amounts of power and money feel like they are important, but they aren't any more important than you or I. We're all part of a universe and in the same cosmic sandbox playing together. It's very fortunate to know that life is huge and we individuals are small. It's good to know because it actually lends itself to peace of mind and satisfaction. That can seem boring. I read once that Buddhists think that the outcome of dissatisfaction is really good because that's the reality of life, it's basically dissatisfying. All our goals and desires amount to basically nothing in the long run. But this isn't the necessary tenor of life. In fact, knowing this can mae one even more joyous in the moment if they can also let go of those realizations. Because they too are just thoughts. No cause to get caught up in any of them, large or small. In fact, it's not the tenor of thought which is the goal but just more attention and awareness to the details of life. I'm always thinking of the great Buddhist and Daoist sculptures and carvers who worked on extremely small pieces of ivory, carvinf entire scenes into something an inch, and taking half their lives to do it. This is mastery. Be a master and instead of getting stuck in the mire of transitoriness, take the timeless aspect of awareness and utilize that. Life becomes more like McDonald's as people lose track of these ideas. The close focus makes one create great cuisine. I'm not trying to preach at ya Lucid. Just my 2 pesos.


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...or something






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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Ped]
    #2167088 -

Quote:
If experienced meditators out there are interested in an experiment, try for me reciting the mantra "Om vajrapanni huum" while comfortable in meditation.  Let me know if you encounter any interesting experiences!  Please do not research Bodhisattva Vajrapani prior to making this attempt, as it will spoil the experiment by creating expectations in your mind.  PM me with any results!

(OM VAJ RA PAH NEE HOOM) 



So Ped, please tell us a bit more about your TB empowerments. And a bit more about your experience with Vajrapani. I do larger sadanas of lots of deities in the Guhyagarbha vein, and so have never really worked with a Yidam besides Vajrasattva.  Can you discuss experiences here? I'll be waiting to hear if you ever come back to this thread again.  BTW why are you calling yourself Ped. You aren't a pedophile are yah? :smirk:


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...or something






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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: eve69]
    #2167191 -

eve69 said:
I'm not trying to preach at ya Lucid.  Just my 2 pesos.


That's not much man, at least offer me fiddy cents :grin:
j/k
Your thoughts and good will are much appreciated :sun:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: lucid]
    #2169745 -

lucid, when I said that you "might not be doing it right" i didn't mean it literally, not in a sense of "correct". I just thought it'd be a good idea to have someone more experienced you could talk to,so they would reassure you


--------------------
Ko-razume-shvati-ce

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Anastasia]
    #2169752 -

btw a very important characteristic of hallucinations is that they are involuntary. I wouldn't really say you're hallucinating when you meditate! there's a difference I think


--------------------
Ko-razume-shvati-ce

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Re: Hallucinations and Vipassena Meditation... [Re: Anastasia]
    #2169889 -

Anastasia said:
lucid, when I said that you "might not be doing it right" i didn't mean it literally, not in a sense of "correct". I just thought it'd be a good idea to have someone more experienced you could talk to,so they would reassure you


Thanks for your feedback Anastasia :sun:
I have looked around here (Montreal) and other places
for teachers but have yet to find someone I really
resonate with...u know what I mean ? like the
way Ram Dass felt about his teacher...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."

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