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Invisiblesuperpimp
The boss of thefamily

Registered: 06/11/01
Posts: 8,706
Loc: Philadelphia/NYC
Meditation question
    #955426 - 10/12/02 06:22 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I have decided I want to learn about meditation, but I really don't know where to start. I am not really a spiritual kind of guy, but I think meditating might help me to be more focused and centered. Anyone have any advice on where to start?


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Anonymous

Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955436 - 10/12/02 06:30 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

Read the FAQ.

Oh, sorry there isn't one! :grin:

There are a couple fo threads recently discussing the various aspects of meditation.

Generally, I focus my eyes on an object until I am in trance.

Lie down and get comfortable.

Stare at something.

Zone out.

Repeat when necessary.

Check out the other threads.

Nice to see you down here! :smile:

Welcome!


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OfflineBuddha1
journeyman
Registered: 05/22/02
Posts: 73
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955527 - 10/12/02 07:26 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I am far from an expert on this topic but here is some of what I have learned.

Meditation is being totally aware, totally in the present. To meditate, watch your mind. Its hard to stay focused without your mind wondering. So let your mind wonder. But be aware of why your mind is wandering. Watch it jump from one idea to another. If you put in any effort to control your mind you are not meditating. Controlling your mind is the opposite of meditation. You cannot have a goal when you meditate. Just be aware of everything. Your breathing, your heartbeat, your mind wondering, everything. Once you have practiced a while you will be able to control your mind and stop it from wondering. A common misconception is that your eyes should be closed. Your eyes can be closed, but it is better that you find a beautiful place to sit outdoors, with plants and animals and a beautiful landscape. Be aware of everything as a whole, and see the beauty in everything. Dont focus on any one idea, be open to everything.

If you are really interested in how to meditate, check out a "meditation for beginners" book. And if you are interested in what meditation is, and what everything is for that matter, check out some books written by Jiddu Krishnamurti.

Good luck!


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OfflineJPAtanat
member
Registered: 04/17/02
Posts: 101
Last seen: 14 years, 6 months
Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955572 - 10/12/02 08:01 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

the great thing about meditation is that you don't have to be at all spiritual to engage or appreciate it. but i would recommend these books:
Zen Mind, Beginners Mind by Shunryu Suzuki, roshi
Miracle of Mindfulness by Thich Nhat Hahn
Meditation in Action by Chogyam Trungpa

Hope you find what you are looking for.

Peace,
JP


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OfflineLOPHO.MP
looker

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 101
Loc: Santa Cruz CA.
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955652 - 10/12/02 08:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)


You know what superpimp, I think you can get a lot of good ideas and stuff from reading these books about meditation. These are especially helpful if you want to write a report on meditation or do a research project on different kinds of meditation. But, reading a book about meditation is not meditating.

I know that in our modern United States society DOing something is often replaced or overshadowed by BUYing something. If someone is interested in yoga for example these days they will go to the mall and buy a bunch of yoga gear and books. In the end they probably won't even do yoga that much. After buying something people feel good like they accomplished something, this feeling often replaces the original thing they were going to do.

If I were you I would just try sitting quiet on the floor. Pay some attention to your breathing and see how you feel. Try different things, stare at something like plato suggested. Try lying down on your back. Try silencing your thoughts. Try to observe your own thought processes objectively.
I'm sure that if you try some of these you will feel different results. You can discover what you like. If after doing this for some time you realize you are really into meditation THEN buy a book. However you might ralize meditation is not for you.

My main advice is don't read one type of meditation and decide that is what meditation is and nothing more. There are a lot of different types of meditation from different philosphies. Remember many of these will carry a lot of extra religous baggage. Try to stay focused on the meditative part unless you are also interested in exploring religous beliefs. Most of these schools will say that their way of meditation is the best. I think different forms work for different people.

Good Luck, meditation can be a very powerful tool


--------------------
---Still Searching---


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OfflineKemist
Soul ComponentsPrototype IssueM11983MF50 (x_x)

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 160
Loc: The Orgin
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Re: Meditation question [Re: LOPHO.MP]
    #955797 - 10/12/02 10:51 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

LOPHO.MP you are so correct on that. i am very guilty of that. i guess having consumerism shoved down my throught since day 1 of my life has made me believe buying something will fill the void in my life. i just wanted to note that because i ust thinking about it and the idea hit me while i was glancing over on your post. i have been working on trying to cut my own trail as much as i can but i still keep a lookout for helpful hints along the way. even is it does come in the form of a purchased item.


--------------------
Rafa (x_X)

fuck a sig




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Offlinehyper_dermic
stranger withcandy

Registered: 06/26/02
Posts: 736
Loc: the land of excess
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #955877 - 10/12/02 11:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

there are diffrences between contemplateing and meditation
thinking or focusing on something is contemplateing....
meditation is silencing the inner voice.... make everything go away.... theres constantly a running dialouge in your head...

theory being that you can recivce from the "spiritual world" "subconcious" or whatever you choose to belive

think of your concious mind as being a lake at the base of a huge moutain
during normal every day conciousness the lake is disturbed and full of ripples (inner dialouge and images)
but during true meditation the lake is calm, and it is only then the lake can reflect the image of the huge moutain....
much like your mind being able to recivce impressions from the divine....

please excuse my spelling, i dropped out of highschool and studied meta-physics instead
[hyp]


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OfflineCaliChronic
member
Registered: 06/23/02
Posts: 111
Loc: Gulf Coast, USA
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #958238 - 10/13/02 11:39 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

simple. read buddhas teachings. he invented trancendental meditation as far as im concerned.

buddhanet.net


--------------------
...
overgrow


Edited by CaliChronic (10/13/02 11:43 PM)


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Anonymous

Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #962207 - 10/15/02 06:44 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

It has been my experience no Book has been able to teach me How to Meditate. Yet I have stumbled upon a way to achieve a few moments of clarity , and then you can get in some Quality Meditation Time. Which in the end, is all you really need.

I find that after a really 'good' session of autoerotic stimulation, my mind clears, and I am able to lay back and think. I mean  really think. The endless mind chatter ceases and I can slip into a deep introspective, even trance like state. It a sort of 'quiet' I can only achieve after I have expended that amount of emotional energy. The drained/euphoric feeling is sedating, coupled with that 'Just woke up' feeling, its a winning combination.  :laugh:

I have read a similar 'technique' in an book of ceremonial magick and it was referred to as the "8th Degree." It is used to prepare the Magician for 'Magickal Purposes' by clearing the mind, and releasing excess energy that may harm the incantation. So maybe it has some merit.

I practice this in the morning, and It allows me to collect my thoughts and be refreshed for the New Day.

/awaits the inapproprate comments from the Peanut Gallery. :smirk: - OoD   


Edited by Anonymous (10/15/02 06:47 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Registered: 12/10/99
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #962334 - 10/15/02 07:54 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

There are several major forms of meditation scattered in different religious traditions, from watching every thought that arises non-judgementally (Vajrayana's Vipassana) to watching one's breathing and 'hara' (Japanese Zen), to becoming passively aware of all inner and outer phenomenon (Zen, and Taoist forms) to having one's Mind descend into the Heart (Orthodox Christian Hesychast) to envisioning elaborate mandalas and seed syllables (Vajrayana again) to envisioning the sacred Names of God in blazing flames (Jewish Kabbalistic) - you get the point. One must discover something about one's personality type (primarily introverted or extroverted) and work with this proclivity. A more exraverted, expansive form will be easier to begin with if one is an extrovert, because meditation in general is an introverted practice.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineLOPHO.MP
looker

Registered: 09/28/02
Posts: 101
Loc: Santa Cruz CA.
Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: Meditation question [Re: Anonymous]
    #962398 - 10/15/02 08:33 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)


I have heard of lots of kinds of meditation, BUT, I have never heard of this style......




--------------------
---Still Searching---


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Anonymous]
    #962998 - 10/15/02 02:49 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)



All the different buddhist schools seem to be going towards the same goal. That's what you'll read when you read a book on mahamudra practice (called a million different things).

"There are several major forms of meditation scattered in different religious traditions, from watching every thought that arises non-judgementally (Vajrayana's Vipassana) to watching one's breathing and 'hara' (Japanese Zen), to becoming passively aware of all inner and outer phenomenon "

To achieve the 'goal' you will need to do what vajrayana says and what the japense zen tell you. If you talk to any tibtan lama they will agree that you must follow the breath in order to meditate properly.

and I would like to state that the meditation talked about in tibetan buddhism, the buddha's enlightenment, zen, etc. is a POWERFUL AS HELL experience, every bit as powerful as dmt. It's not sitting quiet and feeling oh so content. It's a real 'religious' experience of the ego dissolving, if done properly. It's rediculously hard. I have been able to achieve this 4 times, plus twice in lucid dreams. I am sure gurus who work on it all day can actually do it daily.

There are other states you can achieve, the tibetans call them bardos (or 'gaps'). Going into a dream lucid is a bardo. That's when you let yourself fall asleep, but maintain an observer's viewpoint to watch yourself go to sleep. You'll see hypnogogic imagery, then the entire world will vibrate, then the bardo happens (can't describe it, its like a nothing or emptiness) then you appear in the dream, fully lucid. It's an amazing experience.

If you really want to go for meditation for enlightenment purposes, I suggest trying to do a WILD (wake induced lucid dream) which is only possible if you know you will go directly into REM (the dreaming) sleep. this means naps, or waking up about 5 hours into sleep. I reccomend reading books on lucid dreaming first. it's easier to get success and it's just as amazing. Once you get a WILD down a couple times, and you have several lucid dreams a month, then you should go for meditation. That, of course, is just the formula that worked for me personally. Do whatever works for you.

I have heard people say there are other types of meditation, and while that may be true, as far as a i know (please prove me wrong, I'd love more possiblities!) all the different schools focus on the same goal of ego loss, but they have a different way of interpreting the experience. They will use different names and describe the experience differently, but I do think they are essentially all referring to the ego loss state.

Other forms, I think, don't have shatering experiences.


Edited by Birdseye (10/15/02 05:09 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Meditation question [Re: Anonymous]
    #963109 - 10/15/02 03:23 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I think oracle's comments are insightful. Meditation the standard way - ie sit down and empty the mind - doesn't work as far as any powerful spiritual experiences go. Which is why every serious so-called master reaches most of their insights while fasting, avoiding all human contact for months on end or sitting in dark caves until they start hallucinating. Christ, Buddha etc all used methods like this rather than standard meditation.

The "sit and think of nothing" school is fine for general relaxation but I agree with Tim Leary - as far as spiritual experiences go it works for maybe 1 in 100,000 people. To reach a transcendent experience takes a bit more.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGrowingVines
Slowly Changinginto a Tree
Registered: 08/22/02
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #963247 - 10/15/02 04:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I am at the point in meditation where i am learning to controll my thought and try to have a clear mind. I tried counting in my head to stop the wondering thoughts. Is that a good way...i have also tried following my breaths but hard to visualize it. any ideas?


peace out my brothers for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


--------------------
Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Xlea321]
    #963414 - 10/15/02 05:15 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

"Meditation the standard way - ie sit down and empty the mind - doesn't work as far as any powerful spiritual experiences go. Which is why every serious so-called master reaches most of their insights while fasting, avoiding all human contact for months on end or sitting in dark caves until they start hallucinating. "

This is false. I have personal experience (4 times but I was only able to hold it for about 30 seconds or less each time, gurus go minutes and into full depth of the experience, I just got on the edge), and I know gurus who have personal experience with this as well. The reason it doesn't seem to work is it is VERY hard. It takes tons of practice, focus, and a DMT trip is VERY helpful.

Fasting isn't the answer. If you recall the story of the buddha's enlightenment, it's after he finishes his years of fasting that he goes to the river to drink. Well, he couldn't have been fasting the whole time, and not eating just 4 seeds a day, I'm sure he got more nutritonal content than that sometimes, otherwise he would die, unless you believe the buddha is a superhuman being like many buddhists. I think the story has been mythed-up for sure...
Anyway, when he returns from the river a woman offers him some rice pudding (I think the food may depend on the story) and he accepts it because he realizes that fasting is not the way to enlightenment. Then all his followers leave him because they think he is a sham when they see him eat. It is after that he goes alone under the bodhi tree and reaches enlightenment.

Visualizations are a very abstract thing in meditation, and I think they can be very misleading. Visualizations are intended to help you get the experience to come on, and they are descriptions by gurus of what it looks like when the breakthrough occurs..the world changes in a profound manner, and visualizations are a description of what happens, although words are always extremely poor...so I think visualizations can be very misleading. Don't focus on those, focus on getting rid of attatchments, following the breath, and thiking of nothing. While meditating, you are thinking of nothing and following the breath (but not thinking about the breath, experiencing it). Visualizations really only seem to help for me after having a breakthrough experience. I just visualize the experience I had--and this is not just in vision but in feel, emotion, etc. You don't think about this visualization though, it's more of an abstract *let the experience come on* type deal. Or "be open to it"

One problem people have (and myself included) is while meditating people keep their normal conception of reality. Try as you might, you think of nothing for maybe an entire minute you are focued, and you don't get jack. But you forget that the nothingness you must focus on must be accompanied by getting rid of attatchments. You must get rid of your idea of what reality looks like and is. Because your conception of what it is like to be sit with eyes open or closed is a thought at some level. You have to get rid of your attatchments (preconceptions, thoughts about this world) to achieve enlightenment. You must fully let go.


Edited by Birdseye (10/15/02 05:28 PM)


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OfflineGrowingVines
Slowly Changinginto a Tree
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #963487 - 10/15/02 05:48 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

i have only tried meditaion 3 times...........for minuites, i will try longer but i will go in steps.


peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


--------------------
Peace out my brothers, for everyone has a bit of insanity in them


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OfflineCleverName
the cloudsshould know meby now...

Registered: 08/26/02
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Re: Meditation question [Re: GrowingVines]
    #963975 - 10/15/02 09:01 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

really, once you do it more youll get into it, i dont like going a day with out at least one session. i know you can meditate anywhere, but i like to do it with my choice of setting


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
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Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #964203 - 10/15/02 10:28 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

nice man, sounds like you're having fun!

does anyone else around here practice standing meditation? chinese (daoist [taoist]) style?

a lot of daoist meditation involves breath control and moving the awareness through different meridians (energy lines) with many different aims: longevity, healing, martial power, spiritual insight....again these techniques all begin with awareness of the breath and usually with awareness of the body's center. probably the main difference between the daoist and buddhist traditions of meditation is the daoist emphasis on strengthening and healing the body (through meditation AND excercise). the healthiest people i've ever met, and the best healers and martial artists, have all been practicing daoist qigong meditation! maybe i'll check up some websites, it's bloody good fun to read about this stuff - kung fu masters and daoist immortals and all that...


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OfflineTraveller
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Re: Meditation question [Re: GrowingVines]
    #964245 - 10/15/02 10:41 PM (14 years, 6 months ago)

I recommend a FREE 10 DAY MEDITATION COURSE, all meals included, at a VIPASSANA meditation centre. 10 days of total silence (talking is forbidden) and detailed daily instruction in the basic (but profound) technique of vipassana - insight (awareness) meditation in the Theravada buddhist tradition.

really if you want to meditate it's great to kickstart things with a silent retreat, you get a very good idea of how the practice will change you, and you are forced to push through your self-created "i can't do this for more than a couple of minutes" mental barriers.

I've seen the light!!! vipassana is the way!!

i try not to talk too much shit about vipassana because it'll turn people off, like i'm a born again buddhist trying to convert you or something. but really, i've tried quite a few different kinds of meditation (and they are ALL benificial, better than not meditating for sure!) but vipassana is the real shit.

check vipassana (i'm not so savvy with this technical "URL" stuff so www.dhamma.org is the site) for information on centres and course times.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #964735 - 10/16/02 01:33 AM (14 years, 6 months ago)

The reason it doesn't seem to work is it is VERY hard.

I wonder what the number of people who have a spiritual experience through meditation is compared to the number who try it? Is it practical for someone in the west working 12 hours a day to spend enough time meditating? If you have the psychedelic experience first and then want to try meditating to reach it then fine, but saying you can do it purely through meditation is a dead end for most people in my opinion.

I have great doubts about taking the word of "guru's". Their living depends on people following their methods, buying their books etc. Like Terence Mckenna said he found almost all the indian gurus to be a confidence trick and that people were wasting their lives sweeping the ashram telling themselves that one day they'll find enlightenment.

a woman offers him some rice pudding

The story I read was that that Buddha was taking some form of soma? But pretty much every Buddhist, christian, Tao, Hindu etc master has undergone some form of mortification like fasting or meditating in a dark cave for 6 months. I think that's still the way most guru's become gurus.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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