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InvisibleBoppity604
Stranger
Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 1,056
Re: Meditation question [Re: MsPacMan]
    #972308 - 10/18/02 03:10 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Regardless of what tradition or path you decide to follow, there are two main groups or styles of meditation: stabilizing and analytical. The purpose of all meditation is to quiet and tame the mind in order to generate pure wisdom.

Anyone who says they can't learn meditation from a book is misled: you can. Read up on several schools of thought and meditation to find one that really "sits well" with you. Once you find a method that you really like I would suggest finding a meditation or dharma center in your area to study with a teacher. Whenever you begin a new practice, you need the guidance and advice from a skilled teacher to help refine your own process and practice.

I personally have been practicing several Tibetan Buddhist styles of meditation; Tonglen, Maitri and have been progressing into Emptiness training.

An excellent book that covers the basics of all four major schools within Tibetan Buddhism is "How To Meditate: A Pracitcal Guide" by Kathleen MacDonald. Also, any book by Chogyam Trungpa would also give you great examples of Tibetan styles. Also, the Dalai Lama released a new book this year entitled "How to Practice: The Way to a Meaningful Life"...I highly recommend this book for not only showing you basic meditations that will enrich your mind and life, but it's also a great introduction into the Tibetan Buddhist mentality. The Dalai Lama expresses himself in very fluent and beautiful ways...very easy to comprehend as you read.

Most importantly...you need to practice every day. Meditation is exercising your mind. It takes time to start seeing results. Find a practice you like and stick with it. Meditation has changed my life forever...all in greater and greater ways with each passing year. Do not harbor feelings of upset/anger/disappointment if your progress isn't as fast as you'd like it to be...you have to untrain your mind from so many perceptions and reactions you've cultivated your entire life, you can't undo it all in one session on the mat.

Love & Light,

Boppity


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #972329 - 10/18/02 03:20 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

It's a real 'religious' experience of the ego dissolving, if done properly. It's rediculously hard. I have been able to achieve this 4 times, plus twice in lucid dreams.

That's awesome, man! You are the first person I ever heard of who has achieved samadhi in a lucid dream... how did you accomplish that trick? Did you actually sit down in the dreamscape and meditate? Was it willed or spontaneous? How long did it last? Did you wake up afterwards? If not, was the dream after that still lucid?

I've noticed that a lucid dream is easy to remember when you wake up, but if you don't recall it consciously then, it tends to fade away just as quickly as a non-lucid one. When you had that experience in the dream, did it "fade away" after you woke up? Or was it still as powerful and "real" as it would have been when you were awake?

Also (yeah, question time....), could you elaborate on the relationship between DMT and samadhi? Because, from what I gathered, DMT seems to be a powerful hallucinogenic substance, i.e. not something in particular to increase awareness or dissolve the ego. Alan Watts said that LSD would give him a full-blown zen-style mystical experience, but DMT he considered just "fun". (And what about the tykes, anyway?)


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Meditation question [Re: Nomad]
    #972444 - 10/18/02 04:01 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I had a lucid dream last night... I never try for them though... they just happen sometimes.

Every other dream or so, I realize I am dreaming (stuff doesn't make sense like it should) and I can sometimes take the reins. Last night (well, this morning) I did just so. I was able to look up criminal records online... long story and not a very interesting dream.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Sclorch]
    #973068 - 10/18/02 08:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

"Psychedelics were originally used in buddhism and hinduism, just look at their pictures, and texts! Sounds psychedelic to me : "

I actually know a lama of tibetan buddhism who is writing a book on just that.

"what is this "spiritual experience" you keep talking about? meditation is NOT the same thing as eating mushrooms! while it is possible to have similar experiences with the two, the point is completely different."

Oh, of course they aren't identical. There are for sure variations. But the point is the same. If you think it is different, please explain
1) the point of of psychedelics
2) the point of meditation
3) how they differ and how they are similar

The basic idea of enlightenment is that we draw a non existant line between ourselves and everything else. The ego loss experience shows this.

"If you're prepared to work on your meditation for the next 60 years in the hope of having a spiritual experience then good luck to you"

You don't need to work for 60 years. A person with focus could do it in a year. A person without may never.

"That's probably as good a definition of being awake as I've ever heard. The ego doesn't tend to help much - the less you have the better. "

Usually in a conversation about ego-loss, the word "awake" refers to enlightenment, as the buddha is "the one who awoke."

And your use of ego is also not correct to the context of thread. Ego loss is not the loss of propping up your idea of yourself, it is the loss of the self completely.

"Anyone who says they can't learn meditation from a book is misled: you can. "

I agree. I learned first by reading, next by exploring on my own time with dilligence. Books are sort of a starting point, but YOU must figure it out, essentially. You must take a creative approach to it.

"You are the first person I ever heard of who has achieved samadhi in a lucid dream... how did you accomplish that trick? Did you actually sit down in the dreamscape and meditate? Was it willed or spontaneous? How long did it last? Did you wake up afterwards? If not, was the dream after that still lucid? "

Since I meditate quite frequently, meditation tends to inevitably crop up in my dreams. When you really get into lucid dreaming, you should figure out your dream signs. These are things you frequently do in dreams, and when you do the things in real life you should do a reality check.

Both occasions I began meditating in the dream without knowing I was dreaming. But since I always do a reality check before I meditate, I realized it was a dream. The really hard part is starting the meditation and getting it going in the dream. Since I had already started it was easy to "grab the reins" and keep going. Whenever I meditate in a lucid dream my ego begins dissolving in under 30 seconds. That's the great thing about lucid dreams--my success rate for beginning ego dissolving is highest in them. About the 10 times I have tried to meditate in a lucid dream, 2 were cannon shots. But I must say I wasn't able to hold it. I woke up about 30 seconds into it. It's so startling I really need to learn how to hold it--that has been my problem in both 'real life' and in dreams. You don't need to sit down in a dream. One of the dreams I had my eyes closed, the other I was doing an open eye meditation. It was a lot of fun to watch the dream shatter into pieces ;-)

It was very powerful. I remembered it just like any other lucid dream.

". Alan Watts said that LSD would give him a full-blown zen-style mystical experience, but DMT he considered just "fun".

Well there is a stark difference in the nature of how the two things occur. With DMT you can smoke it and really have no clue what the hell happened. That's what smoking DPT for my first time was like. Mystical, but little understanding.

If you meditate and achieve it (no I haven't achieved the full state via meditation yet) your understanding is so much more full! With DMT it's like someone drives you there, but meditation you must make the journey on your own steam. You learn SO MUCH more through meditation. DMT is a great learning experience and really helps as a starter with meditation, but it can't compare to doing it yourself. So I definitely can see what alan watts said, even though I am not as experienced as him.






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OfflineViBrAnT
WaRpInG &sPiRaLiNg
Registered: 07/30/02
Posts: 286
Last seen: 17 years, 2 months
Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #973214 - 10/18/02 09:55 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

if you concentrate on your breath long enough your state will become so natural that held long enough will provoke a revelation or possible enlightenment. i speak from experience.


--------------------
" liken this life illusory, for your sand castle will one day be adrift amongst the wind "




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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 13 years, 7 days
Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #973351 - 10/18/02 11:00 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Oh, of course they aren't identical. There are for sure variations. But the point is the same. If you think it is different, please explain

ok it was me who said that so i guess now i have to try and explain....

first then, the point - or the most important point in my opinion - of meditation is the training - or re-training - of the mind. the point of meditation is NOT to have some mushroom like "trip", although such states can occur during meditation. meditating in the hope of experiencing such states will only lead to disappointment.

when i say the point of meditation practice is the training of the mind i should say that the point of each meditation session, and of each moment within each session (and ideally continued throughout the day) is to experience NOW, thus sitting and thinking "i'm training my mind, must train my mind" is no better than sitting and thinking "i want a spiritual experience, will it happen soon?". but the point of the PRACTICE is to train the mind to get better at experiencing this NOW, without reliving the past, imagining the future, or whatever.

what is the point of psychedelics?? that's another good question. i don't know the answer. i'd say that the point is similar to that of meditation - for people who meditate. ie if you're not doing both....

I'm reaching here, i don't really know how to answer this question since i can only go on my own experience and what i've seen among people i know, but i'll keep trying for a few minutes and see what comes out.

first, i consider psychedelics to be an excellent learning tool. my first trips were back in high school and were all wonderful, beautiful experiences - as all of my trips since have been. i seem naturally suited to mushrooms and LSD, cactus and DMT and others i haven't tried but i think i'll most likely enjoy them too. there are plenty of people i know who definately should NOT eat mushrooms!!!

so, learning tool. the first trips opened my eyes to a world of magic and limitless, unknown possibilities - the world of my childhood! i'm so glad to be back where anything is possible, refreshing change from cynical teenage years. now though, i look at mushrooms as an EXTENSION of my training. i see this in my friends as well: those who are "training" (in anything, kung fu, meditation, massage, any musical instrument) take the mushroom and continue to "train" - playing their instrument, practicing movements, sitting still, dancing!!, drawing painting - while under the influence, and then take that intense learning experience back into sobriety. everyone here must have had amazing breakthroughs with this.

I have other friends however who do NOT train, under the influence or otherwise, but like to talk about things like "chaos magic" and "eliminating the ego"...these friends continue to take drugs regularly, and continue to talk about the same things while making no actual progress towards the goals they are talking about. among the younger ones this seems to be ok, but in those who are now getting into their late twenties and older the physical signs are becoming more obvious: these people have been damaging their bodies for too long and their no-longer-young bodies are WEAK because of it.

so, if you are a meditator and use psychedelics they will naturally be an extension of your meditation practice, you will find yourself wanting to meditate during trips. same if you are a musician, dancer, artist...the intensity of the psychedelic experience allows you to absorb more information (???) more quickly through your heightened senses. the important thing is how you USE this brief period of heightened awareness to LEARN. eating mushrooms and watching TV is not (in my humble opinion) a step on the path to liberation from suffering. eating mushrooms outdoors will almost certainly be a spiritual experience though...for sure i know some uptight meditators who would be completely blown away by a full on mushroom trip in a forest!

ok i'm losing it. hope some of this makes sense to somebody.


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OfflineNomad
Mad Robot

Registered: 04/30/02
Posts: 422
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Meditation question [Re: Sclorch]
    #974207 - 10/19/02 07:31 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

I had a lucid dream last night... I never try for them though... they just happen sometimes. Every other dream or so, I realize I am dreaming (stuff doesn't make sense like it should) and I can sometimes take the reins.

I'm in a dry phase at the moment (which sucks) but I've had times when I had a lucid dream almost every night for something like two weeks... but my dream control was usually very weak. I never managed to start flying, for example. My style is by approaching the "point of no return", trying to stay conscious as long as possible when falling asleep. I'm not much into dream signs because my dream recall is weak, and I guess I'm not critical enough to notice that something is going wrong without doing an explicit reality check.

I was able to look up criminal records online... long story and not a very interesting dream.

Yeah, sounds much fun. :laugh: 


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Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,486
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
Re: Meditation question [Re: Nomad]
    #978956 - 10/21/02 06:58 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

there was an issue of "tricycle" a few years ago (fall '96) focused on buddhism & psychedelics, very much worth picking up a copy....
www.tricycle.com


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Edited by gnrm23 (10/21/02 06:59 AM)


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: gnrm23]
    #979986 - 10/21/02 03:48 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Traveller,

The point of meditation as I understand it is to liberate yourself from the darkness of ignorance. This ignorance is the idea that you are a seperate self from everything else.

It's very hard to say "what the point" is and I believe that is where we both erred in this argument. For me all I can see is the big point, the transcending experience... But I have had your 'learning tool' experiences on psychedelics as well. Thinking, cutting out BS in my life, getting down to what makes sense and is important to me.

The fundamental realization in meditation which is the foundation of buddhism is also available, by a speed route with much less understanding, through psychedelics. That's my only argument. We fell into arguing about "what the point was" and we simply had a difference in definition.

I don't reccomend repeated drug use. I think doing dmt or something like that a couple times is enough. Occasionally if you are having severe block a little 'refresher' trip once a year might be a nice guide. But besides that, I wouldn't reccomend it.


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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 13 years, 7 days
Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #981174 - 10/21/02 11:43 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

birdseye,

different kinds of meditation have different points. the point of vipassana meditation is to observe reality as it is at this moment without trying to change it in any way. the point of yiquan meditation is do develope physical power through relaxation and concentration. temporary experiences of ego loss are definately not the point, and that was my original point! the final goal of the buddhist path is PERMANENT liberation from suffering, illusion, duality. and in my opinion this is very very different from any drug induced "spiritual experience".

i'm not dissing mushrooms. i love mushrooms.

and i'm not trying to argue, just in case my writing tone sounds a bit hard or something, here's a yellow smiley face to show how lighthearted i'm being  :cool:


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InvisibleBirdseye
donald
Registered: 10/31/00
Posts: 204
Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #983699 - 10/22/02 05:59 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:smile:
I suppose it depends on which angle you attack the problem. The way buddhism liberates is through the realization

"temporary experiences of ego loss are definately not the point, and that was my original point! the final goal of the buddhist path is PERMANENT liberation from suffering, illusion, duality. and in my opinion this is very very different from any drug induced "spiritual experience"."

Ah yes but it is the ego loss experience which brings about the permanent liberation. That's my point. I suppose your definition of the final goal is in fact more precise, I was focusing on the experience that causes the final goal.

As far as different schools go, they are generally all attempting to liberate you through the same experience. They just have different ways of interpreting how to get there and what it is or how to describe it.


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OfflineTraveller
enthusiast
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 309
Last seen: 13 years, 7 days
Re: Meditation question [Re: Birdseye]
    #985425 - 10/23/02 02:13 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

right-o!


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 9 months, 29 days
Re: Meditation question [Re: Traveller]
    #985945 - 10/23/02 09:41 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Permanent dissolution of the ego - perhaps that only happens when we pop our clogs? I like the theory that the point of meditation and the psychdelic experience is to gain experience of this egoless state you will encounter when you die. So you are prepared for the experience and do not panic. What the exact benefits of not panicking would be I dont know but i could speculate endlessly!


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/11/05
Posts: 7,620
Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #15560075 - 12/23/11 05:10 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

You do realize you're replying to a 9 year old thread?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Everyone's path is different, and that is fine. We either sit or walk.”


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group
Male


Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,340
Loc: Under the C
Re: Meditation question [Re: Rahz]
    #15560101 - 12/23/11 05:32 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Vibrant wrote:
Quote:

if you concentrate on your breath long enough your state will become so natural that held long enough will provoke a revelation or possible enlightenment. i speak from experience.




Sadly, he committed suicide many years ago. I guess all that sitting and doing nothing really balanced him out.


--------------------


Edited by OrgoneConclusion (12/23/11 05:42 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Meditation question [Re: superpimp]
    #15560239 - 12/23/11 07:23 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

alvinsmith said:
Try to Relax. It is important that you switch off from all thoughts when you are meditating. As you sit down and start meditating, remind yourself that you will not think about anything for the next few minutes. Relax your muscles slowly. Imagine your body tension slowly draining away. Have the Correct Posture. This is vital in meditation. The best posture for meditation is to sit cross-legged with a straight back. You can lie down but will likely to make you feel sleepy while meditating. Calm Your Mind. This is the most difficult part of learning how to meditate properly. The mind is used to continually receive and process information. When your mind is completely quiet, you’ll begin to look into your soul and discover your true self. This is a form of expanding your consciousness.





Bullshit Alert!:haha:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 27,426
Re: Meditation question [Re: Icelander]
    #15560580 - 12/23/11 10:14 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

good call, ice

how does superpimp feel about all this help?


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Meditation question [Re: redgreenvines]
    #15560720 - 12/23/11 11:00 AM (8 years, 9 months ago)

My life is a mediation on thinking. :monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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