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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
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Mortification of the flesh
#5294276 - 02/13/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I was curious if anyone performed any forms of self-denial or voluntary suffering, either as part of a spiritual tradition, means of a transhuman experience, altered consciousness, enlightenment, or even as a rite of passage. If so, were you satisfied with the results? Any response to the topic would be of interest to me.
Thanks.
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it stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5294318 - 02/13/06 10:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have a few different tattoos and a body piercing, and I plan to have more done in the future. I feel that body modification is a lifestyle in itself, though I attach no spiritual connotations to the process.
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
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Well I assume then for you, the pain is not the desired effect, but rater some second hand attribute of the process. You'd prefer it to be painless, no?
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goobler
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5294385 - 02/13/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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are you counting fasting?
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: goobler]
#5294499 - 02/13/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Yes, it doesn't have to be anything extreme. Even the exclusion of certain or all food, sex, or alcohol.
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TameMe
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5294521 - 02/13/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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denying a desire i wouldn't think is nearly the same as mortification.
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: TameMe]
#5294540 - 02/13/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Then you would be thinking wrong 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporal_mortification Mortification of the flesh In its simplest form, it can mean merely denying oneself certain bodily pleasures, such as by abstaining from chocolate, from meat, from food generally (fasting), from alcohol, or from sex. It can also be practised by deliberately choosing a simple or even impoverished lifestyle; this is often one reason many monastics take vows of poverty.
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TameMe
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5294588 - 02/13/06 12:18 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I disagree.
Denying a desire could mean denying something that is bad for you. Denying a pleasure that is bad for you is certainly not mortification.
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: TameMe]
#5294597 - 02/13/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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It doesn't really matter if you agree or not, that is how the word has been used for past centuries. That's a fact.
You are being far too much of a literalist. Both mortification and flesh are used in a symbolic sense.
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Silversoul
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5294619 - 02/13/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Well, like itstarssaddam, I also have tattoos and piercings, but I do attach a sort of spiritual significance to the pain, as well as the final product. To me, it's a rite of passage.
--------------------
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TameMe
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5294636 - 02/13/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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let's take a look at the Random House Dictionary of the English Language
Quote:
mor-ti-fi-cat-tion 3. the practice of asceticism by penitential discipline to overcome disire for sin and to stregthen the will
i think we both might be right.
Edited by TameMe (02/13/06 12:34 PM)
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: TameMe]
#5294645 - 02/13/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Like I said, you are reading mortification literally. The saying; "Mortification of the flesh" was coined Saint Paul, mainly in response to:
?For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.? (Rom 8:13)
?Put to death what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.? (Col 3:5)
"Mortification of the flesh" has a specific religious/spiritual connotation that has been in use for hundreds of years.
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TameMe
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: TameMe]
#5294647 - 02/13/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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or wait...i think i was wrong.
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spud
I'm so fly.

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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: TameMe]
#5294663 - 02/13/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Heh, the excerpt you quoted supports my argument
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it stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5294772 - 02/13/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Quote:
spud said: Well I assume then for you, the pain is not the desired effect, but rater some second hand attribute of the process. You'd prefer it to be painless, no?
Oh, not at all. The pain isn't exactly a "desired" effect, but at the same time, I feel it is an essential part of the process, which is why I am against using drugs beforehand to make the experience easier. A piercing or a tattoo indicates the overcoming of pain in the name of self expression. If you would consider this spiritual then I suppose it is.
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spud
I'm so fly.

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I'm not sure if I'd exactly call that spiritual, I think we would both agree that it is a pretty secular process for you.
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it stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5294803 - 02/13/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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Indeed.
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spud
I'm so fly.

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I could never get a tattoo, my mind is far too dynamic to make any permanent decisions.
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gettinjiggywithit
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5294997 - 02/13/06 02:17 PM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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This changes how your first question was worded
Quote:
?For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.? (Rom 8:13)
?Put to death what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.? (Col 3:5)
Quote:
I was curious if anyone performed any forms of self-denial or voluntary suffering, either as part of a spiritual tradition, means of a transhuman experience, altered consciousness, enlightenment, or even as a rite of passage. If so, were you satisfied with the results? Any response to the topic would be of interest to me.
If you live according to the spirit and not the flesh, then you are not living in denial of the spirit is all. The spirit however, moves through the flesh and recognises and works to fullfill it with itself, if you let it.
The MORE I live according to the spirit and not the flesh, the LESS pain and suffering I have experienced in the physical.
I wanted to add this because the idea of living according to spirit and not the flesh does not make for a life of physical pain and suffering. To the contrary, it alleviates it.
Living according to spirit is highly satisfying, rewarding and fullfilling.
For example, there is a huge difference between lustful passionate sex and sweet gentle love making that is in recognition of the spirits intertwining and merging in love through the act.
How many of you are aware of the cosmic orgasm? It blows away a genitally stimulated physical one. When two spirits sharing in the hieghts of love intertwine and release themselves from the physical to dance together in the aethers and that sort of excitement builds and releases itself, it has a power so strong it will blast you out of the galaxy in waves for hours-Clothes ON. The entire energy body goes off and triggers a physical sensation in all of the muslces, especially those around you skull feeling liked you are jacked up with cosmic herione.
The body and ego can deny spirit and live of and in the flesh alone. It will know pain and suffering a lot too.
The spirit doesn't deny the body of anything that brings it the realised fullfillment of the spirit self.
Why would anyone deny spirit? Spirit being the essense of universal unconditional love of the whole existant self, creative intelligence beyond imaginations wildests dreams and knows more then any human will come to realize in a life time, and the power to cause a Big Bang that brings a Physical Universe into existance?
Hmmmmmmm, live in accordance with spirit or a lump of primitive biological ego thinking flesh?
Free will, you decide for yourselves. I have found living with it as oppossed to being in denial of it and resistant to it made a difference that I wouldn't even know how to quantify. Life just keeps getting better. You wouldn't beleive the phone call I just got and I am beaming from ear to ear as another dream comes true. Spirit and the love of it ROCKS!
I just don't want for anyone to beleive that living in accordance with Spirit means pain and suffering in the physical. Thats not true. If you live according to its will, you will live larger then life itself. Let it show you the way. All you have to do is get out of its way first with your own primitive ego agendas. It knows more then us and loves itself without condition so of course it'll buff you out.
The body can deny spirit yet the spirit does not deny the body that dwells within it.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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spud
I'm so fly.

Registered: 10/07/02
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Quote:
gettinjiggywithit said: This changes how your first question was worded
Quote:
?For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.? (Rom 8:13)
?Put to death what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.? (Col 3:5)
Quote:
I was curious if anyone performed any forms of self-denial or voluntary suffering, either as part of a spiritual tradition, means of a transhuman experience, altered consciousness, enlightenment, or even as a rite of passage. If so, were you satisfied with the results? Any response to the topic would be of interest to me.
Heh, what I said before that was:
Quote:
The saying; "Mortification of the flesh" was coined Saint Paul, mainly in response to:
?For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.? (Rom 8:13)
?Put to death what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry.? (Col 3:5)
I was merely pointing out the etymology and Christian roots.
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raytrace
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5297816 - 02/14/06 01:02 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have abstained from meat twice for 1,5 years. It's not clear what exactly I gained from it, though I certainly have not regretted doing it. I think that during these periods I was relatively more vulnerable, but then again other coinciding events may have influenced that. If I had to decide I?d say it does have an effect on consciousness.
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eligal
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: spud]
#5297831 - 02/14/06 01:10 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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i like it in the pooper
-------------------- \m/ Spanksta \m/ "do you have the freedom to do with your nervous system what you want?" "MolokoMilkPlus said: I'll respect you if you let me give you a blow job" "tactik said: respect the can."
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FungusMan
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: eligal]
#5297947 - 02/14/06 02:27 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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I have: Fasted during certain holy times Abstained from prepared/cooked foods and all meat for a certain time Got religious tattoo's on very painfull areas during a trance Abstained from sex during certain holy times Went on vision quests that involved being built into a hut, and had no food or water for 3 days
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koppie
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Re: Mortification of the flesh [Re: eligal]
#5297964 - 02/14/06 02:36 AM (17 years, 11 months ago) |
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If you like it, it isn't mortification 
Personally, I don't believe there is anything useful to be gained by taking on artificial suffering, or denying the realities of the flesh. How can producing more suffering reduce the total amount of suffering in the world?
On the other hand, I feel that voluntarily enduring pain or hunger can be very useful to teach the body that suffering and pain are two different things, and that the link between them can be broken, even if it takes years of practice. Whether this truly is mortification is debatable.
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