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OfflinePhred
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Registered: 10/19/00
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: muhurgle]
    #2075276 - 11/06/03 12:13 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

muhurgle writes:

Ok, so what you're saying is that since we experience free will, there is free will, period?

Of course. How else can it be validated except through direct experience? That is how we validate everything.

Given the exact same universe the moment before I answered your post, would it be impossible to predict what I'm going to do (ie. answer it or not) since I have free will?

Yes. It would be impossible to predict with certainty what you would do.

My understanding of free will is; given a bystander outside our universe with complete understanding of the rules that govern it, could he give a definite yes or no to that question? If he could, then there is no free will.

Excellent way of putting it. I like that very much. Did you think that up on your own? If so, I envy you. I wish I'd thought it up. Mind if I borrow it for future use?

I agree that if such a being could make an accurate prediction in every case, then there would indeed be no such thing as free will.

If I understand you correctly, you say that since we can't predict it, or we can't see our universe from the outside, there is free will, since it's all we can experience.

No. I am saying that since your actions are neither random nor predetermined, you have free will. You didn't choose to answer my post because the physical laws governing subatomic particles made it inevitable that you do, but because your consciousness -- that attribute of yourself which apprehends reality and directs your actions -- decided to.

In my opinion, wether such a bystander exists or could exists or whatever, is irrelevant.

Of course it is irrelevant. The existence of free will does not depend on an outside observer.

pinky


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2075935 - 11/06/03 03:39 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Your conscienceness, is formed from the effects/or causes of genetics and environment, which make you the person you are, your thoughts feelings ect...are all a result of the effects of genetics and evironment, they are your reactions, to actions, and your actions that cause reaction throughout the system, which were inturn caused by forces within the system, thus make you make the choices you make. Its as simple as this if you choose to respond or not respond to this post there is a reason a cause, that makes you make one choice over another, as long as there is a reason(the words reason and cause are interchangeble) then you had no choice but to choose what you did, so really u had no choice. And even if you could go back in time to the exact moment of your choice and all the conditions where exactly the same just before that choice was made, and because of quantum randomness, the evironment at the moment of your choice would be changed and might be just different enough to CUASE you to choose the other option instead of the orignial option chosen then you still dont have free will because it was randomness's effects on the conditions that led you to make a different choice this time. You cant rewind the the system and have it be the same, because then all the quantum events that helped make the environment the way it was upon your initial choice would have be reset and be able to come out in completely different ways then they did in the system that you made your initial choice in, infact the entire universe would be altered, because all quantum events from the begining of time would have had the chance to happen in different ways. So if there is no randomness u cant make a different choice if u rewind time, because thats determinism, if there is randomness you might be able to, but it still wouldn't be free will because u didnt have any control over those random effects that cause you to make another choice, so there was no will for you to excercise, no freedom atleast not the kind u want. The whole idea of going back and doing it over is nonsense because the conditions can never be the same because of quantum randomness, so to ask the question "if i go back to the moment of my choice, and everything is the same can i choose something different?" is pointless because it can't be done. either randomness will cause you to choose differently, or if you knew your previous choice then you will be changed enough so that the conditions will no longer be the same as the initial conditions were, or everything will be exactly the same as the intial conditions were(the only way that is even close to being possible is if you arent aware of your initial choice), and in which case because conditions are the same, and your the same, you will make the same choice, if you didnt you'd just be making a random choice and once again randomness isn't free will because you need control to excercise your free will, and it would have to be absolute control, because limited control would be limited freedom wich is an oxymoron, and absolute control isn't possible because by default having absolute control would also mean that you were capable of knowing every effect that your choice would have, and the effects of those effects and so on an on and on, which isnt possible. its atleast not possible due to the uncertainy principle, so ok lets say that principle is wrong, well guess what if it is that means we live in a completely deterministic world and in which case you dont have freewill because of the very nature of a deterministic world. What you people are saying is that there is somehow a way to make a choice without regards to the conditions surrounding that choice, and for that choice to somehow not be random. But that is impossible. your saying something exists between randomness and nonrandomness, what mechanism could possibly allow for such a mysterious thing? quantum theories of conscienceness cant, because at best they only mean our mind is directly effected by inherent quantum randomness, and randomness isn't freewill, because there is no "will" allowed by randomness. True freedom is utter randomness, but what good is freedom if we have no true choice in how it is excersised. True freewill is utter nonsense because the free part is random and will is not allowed by randomness, its an oxymoron. So in a deterministic world, no free will, everything is predetermined, and in a non deterministic world no free will because the indeterminism stems from randomness which cannot be controled thus giving you no chance to ecersise your will. You can believe that there is some how some magical way for something to exist between randomness and that which is determined but then how? how does it exist? what is it? what gave rise to it? and what gave rise to that which gave rise to it? Face the truth or believe in nonsense, either way its ok because u cant help but do what your going to do, because u dont have free will!!!!!!
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2076190 - 11/06/03 07:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Man, paragraph spacing! It is a lesson that I learned the hard way, but I found that it wasn't too hard to hit a return after some sentences. Hell, I even used to hit tab at the start of the next paragraph as well, but it never actually showed up in the post.

Very much easier to read when it can be presented in a form where people can read a thought, reflect on it, and then go on to explore the next thought without losing their place in a bunch of words.

Good spacing of thoughts is necessary if one really wants to get what they have to say acrossed to the person reading it. Try it and be amazed at its sucess. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2076200 - 11/06/03 07:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

> Not only do I think it, I know it and can demonstrate it. ... by replying in grammatically correct English rather than Swahili or random gibberish ...

Good example. Demonstrate this free will you speak of and reply in Swahili, please. Better yet, grow wings and fly away. You have free will, you can do anything, no?

Just because you can make a choice, does not mean that you have free will. You have free will within the system that you exist, but you will always be limited to that system. A fish cannot breath air no matter how badly it wants to.


--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Seuss]
    #2076414 - 11/06/03 10:25 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Seuss said:
Good example.  Demonstrate this free will you speak of and reply in Swahili, please.  Better yet, grow wings and fly away.  You have free will, you can do anything, no?

Just because you can make a choice, does not mean that you have free will.  You have free will within the system that you exist, but you will always be limited to that system.  A fish cannot breath air no matter how badly it wants to. 




Well, it could evolve as a species to breathe air.... :grin:

You may be limited by the system that you are in. But you still are free to make any choice that is possible within that system. That includes increasing the size of the system that you are in. One could choose to learn Swahili and then could speak it.

What this comes on down to is how you define free will. If free will is defined as some sort of power that allows you to create anything, do anything, be anything with no regard for any situation, I don't consider that free will, I consider that being God. My definition of free will is to have the ability to make any choice that one wishes, as long as that choice is available to be made.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2076740 - 11/06/03 12:44 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Free will exists, that's not open to debate

really? one of the greatest debates in philosophy... is not open to debate?



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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2076743 - 11/06/03 12:46 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
really? one of the greatest debates in philosophy... is not open to debate?
 




Nope. God has spoken. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2076750 - 11/06/03 12:51 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

:lol:

forgive me  :wink:
 


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2076766 - 11/06/03 01:04 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Laughter angers your God.
:grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2076839 - 11/06/03 01:36 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Laughter angers your God.

he lacks humor?

or does he just hate the sound of laughter?  :wink:
 


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2076863 - 11/06/03 01:47 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
he lacks humor?

or does he just hate the sound of laughter?  :wink:
 




Oh, he has humour. He just doesn't appreciate others laughing. Only Him, for he is the only one holy enough to deserve to laugh. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2078482 - 11/06/03 10:30 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

ZenGecko writes:

Your conscienceness, is formed from the effects/or causes of genetics and environment, which make you the person you are, your thoughts feelings ect...are all a result of the effects of genetics and evironment, they are your reactions, to actions, and your actions that cause reaction throughout the system, which were inturn caused by forces within the system, thus make you make the choices you make.

This is incomplete. Your consciousness is more than just the memories of things that have happened to you. Your consciousness is capable not just of absorbing and reacting to stimuli, but also of initiating action, even in the absence of any outside stimulus.

Its as simple as this if you choose to respond or not respond to this post there is a reason a cause, that makes you make one choice over another, as long as there is a reason(the words reason and cause are interchangeble) then you had no choice but to choose what you did, so really u had no choice.

Yes, there is a reason I chose to respond to this post -- I consciously made the decision to do so. Not because of any environmental factors (gee, it's hot in here, I think I'll respond to a post) or any genetic predisposition (my parents were capable of typing, therefore I must type now), but because I chose to do so. I had the choice. As a matter of fact, I almost chose not to. Perhaps I should have, as nothing I say will convince you to believe the evidence of your own senses.

And even if you could go back in time to the exact moment of your choice and all the conditions where exactly the same just before that choice was made, and because of quantum randomness, the evironment at the moment of your choice would be changed and might be just different enough to CUASE you to choose the other option instead of the orignial option chosen then you still dont have free will because it was randomness's effects on the conditions that led you to make a different choice this time.

Speculation, nothing more.

a) you cannot go back in time.
b) if time travel were possible, you cannot say that quantum randomness would make things different. Quantum randomness is a phenomenon of subatomic particles, not of macro-entities.
c) even if quantum randomness did exhibit itself at the macro level, that doesn't mean it affects one's choices. That is your theory -- as yet unproven and at odds with observable reality and your own experience.

You cant rewind the the system and have it be the same, because then all the quantum events that helped make the environment the way it was upon your initial choice would have be reset and be able to come out in completely different ways then they did in the system that you made your initial choice in, infact the entire universe would be altered, because all quantum events from the begining of time would have had the chance to happen in different ways.

See above.

So if there is no randomness u cant make a different choice if u rewind time, because thats determinism, if there is randomness you might be able to, but it still wouldn't be free will because u didnt have any control over those random effects that cause you to make another choice, so there was no will for you to excercise, no freedom atleast not the kind u want.

You are missing the point. Free will is neither a manifestation of randomness nor of predetermination. Rattling on about either gets you nowhere.

The whole idea of going back and doing it over is nonsense because the conditions can never be the same because of quantum randomness, so to ask the question "if i go back to the moment of my choice, and everything is the same can i choose something different?" is pointless because it can't be done.

Who said anything about doing it over? Who asked "If I go back to the moment of my choice..." ? Not me.

either randomness will cause you to choose differently, or if you knew your previous choice then you will be changed enough so that the conditions will no longer be the same as the initial conditions were, or everything will be exactly the same as the intial conditions were(the only way that is even close to being possible is if you arent aware of your initial choice), and in which case because conditions are the same, and your the same, you will make the same choice, if you didnt you'd just be making a random choice and once again randomness isn't free will because you need control to excercise your free will, and it would have to be absolute control, because limited control would be limited freedom wich is an oxymoron, and absolute control isn't possible because by default having absolute control would also mean that you were capable of knowing every effect that your choice would have, and the effects of those effects and so on an on and on, which isnt possible.

See above. You are twisting yourself into insanely complicated linguistic knots by chasing after something completely beside the point. One need not have absolute knowledge in order to choose to order a Big Mac rather than a Quarter Pounder.

its atleast not possible due to the uncertainy principle, so ok lets say that principle is wrong, well guess what if it is that means we live in a completely deterministic world and in which case you dont have freewill because of the very nature of a deterministic world.

I suggest you re-read my first post and grok this for a while -- what if one's consciousness acts on this observable universe, but is not entirely of this observable universe?

What you people are saying is that there is somehow a way to make a choice without regards to the conditions surrounding that choice, and for that choice to somehow not be random.

Correct.

But that is impossible.

Clearly it is not, since all of us exercise that choice countless times each day. I'm doing it right now. So are you. If your theory contradicts observable reality, your theory is flawed.

your saying something exists between randomness and nonrandomness, what mechanism could possibly allow for such a mysterious thing?

I dunno. The fact that we have yet to determine the mechanism of consciousness doesn't alter the fact that it exists. Are you conscious or are you not?

quantum theories of conscienceness cant, because at best they only mean our mind is directly effected by inherent quantum randomness, and randomness isn't freewill, because there is no "will" allowed by randomness.

Agreed. Therefore there is more to consciousness than quantum mechanics can explain.

True freedom is utter randomness, but what good is freedom if we have no true choice in how it is excersised.

True freedom is not utter randomness.

True freewill is utter nonsense because the free part is random and will is not allowed by randomness, its an oxymoron.

No, it is not. It is your insistence that freedom is randomness that is confusing you here. Randomness is not freedom, it is randomness.

So in a deterministic world, no free will, everything is predetermined...

Correct. Therefore the observable existence of free will invalidates the theory that consciousness is a purely mechanistic phenomenon.

... and in a non deterministic world no free will because the indeterminism stems from randomness which cannot be controled thus giving you no chance to ecersise your will.

Correct again. Therefore the observable existence of free will invalidates the theory that consciousness is a purely random phenomenon.

You can believe that there is some how some magical way for something to exist between randomness and that which is determined but then how?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

how does it exist?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

what is it?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

what gave rise to it?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

and what gave rise to that which gave rise to it?

Dunno. Nonetheless, it exists.

Face the truth or believe in nonsense...

If you choose to ignore the evidence of your senses, that's no skin off my nose. All the questions you asked above are valid questions. The fact that no one can yet give a convincing answer to any of them doesn't alter the fact that consciousness exists, and that one of the attributes of consciousness is the ability to initiate purposeful action -- i.e. exercise free will.

A century ago no one could explain how the sun could burn in a vacuum, how it came into existence, what existed before it. That didn't change the fact that the sun exists.

...either way its ok because u cant help but do what your going to do, because u dont have free will!!!!!!

If exercising your free will led you to that conclusion, then of course you are free to continue to believe it.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2078521 - 11/06/03 10:38 PM (17 years, 11 months ago)

infidelGOD writes:

really? one of the greatest debates in philosophy... is not open to debate?

Few serious philosophers deny the existence of free will... it is readily observable. The great debate is not whether or not it exists, but how to explain it -- why it exists; by what mechanisms does it come into existence and precisely how is it exercised.

To deny the existence of free will is in principle the same as denying the existence of consciousness. Consciousness and volition are inextricably entwined. Few serious philosophers deny the existence of consciousness either... to do so one must disregard the evidence of one's senses. The great debate is not about whether or not consciousness exists, but about the nature of consciousness.

pinky


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InvisibleOkEyToKeY
Registered: 02/18/02
Posts: 88
Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) *DELETED* [Re: Phred]
    #2079518 - 11/07/03 03:33 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Post deleted by OkEyToKeY

Reason for deletion: .



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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: OkEyToKeY]
    #2079700 - 11/07/03 04:57 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Okey and Suess seem to understand, the rest of you unfortunately seem lost, or ill equiped to be having this conversation. I'm not trying to insult anyone by saying that i'm jost pointing out that some of you may not have the basic scientific knowledge, understanding of logical rules, and grasp of philosophy to mount a serious logical counter arguement. I know that sounds arrogant as hell and like i sait that not my intention but i do believe it to be accurate. First many of your arguements against me are based on sensory information, which is not reliable in many cases, how many mistakes do u make a day because of a misinterpretation of sense data? how often do u not understand something completely because of lack of sense data? have you ever seen an optical illusion and been fooled by it for atleast a moment? sense data is not always accurate, that is a fact. The rest of the responses are based on the assumption that there is something that exists between randomness and determinism, and that free will is this thing, yet you offer no logical proof other then saying that is what you percieve to be so, but hell i can percieve you to have horns on your head, a pitch fork and a pointy tail but chances are i'm just delusional and your not really the devil. And that is indeed what is happening here, your under the delusion that there is free will, your basically hallucinating, and buying into that illusion, and that illusion is skewing the way you interpret evidence(you have to atleast admit this is a possibility) that is counter to your belief, in fact your delusion is self reinforcing. Most of the counter arguements i've read between my last post and this one demonstrated a lack of basic knowledge about physics and logic, i'm not trying to be mean by saying that, thats just how it is. your counter arguements are based on blind faith and assumptions that are not supported by observable measurable facts, and the arguements are logically inconsistant.
(happy now, i indented)
If you converted my sentences to mathmatical form, assigning a number or letter, or symbol to each primise and added the premises up you cannot help but come to the sum or conclusion that i have if you follow the rules of logic(i've taken a class on it, i know a lil bit about it) The problem here is that your either accepting my premises yet saying they dont add up (which i have to adimit is possible, i too could be delusional, and i'm willing to admit it, are you?) but unlike me, your not offering a logically consistant set of arguements for doing so, or your not accepting my premises which is ok, but then the burden of disproving them in a logical and constistent manner is up to you, which so far none have risen to that challenge, the arguements are faith based and sense based, not logically based. Its ok to believe i'm wrong and not know how i'm wrong but its unfair to not quantify your responses by stating that you dont know, instead just saying that i'm wrong, or offering nonlogically consistent arguements to support your conclusions, which is just not an effective counter arguement.
Another problem is many of you seem to be completely over simplifying causality. It is not usually a simple chain of cause then effect then cause, it is more like a web with interconnected causes and interconnected effects, and each effect is also a cause and each cause also an effect, and All these add up to create the environment your in this very moment and to make you the person you are this very moment. Your completely underestimating the subtlety of these causes and effects. Even when your at rest and your mind is just generating seemingly random thoughts, they arent really random, they are all the result of past experiences, worries about the future, observations of the present and a myriead of other causes, and those things are indeed causes, they are often effects too, they are both at the same time. Again every cause is an effect, and every effect has atleast the potential to also be a cause. Beleive me, if i see a logically consistant arguement that is in freewill's favor, i'll be the first to jump all over it, i dont want to believe what i do, so believe me when i say that i'm not defending this position out of arrogance or ego, i'm defending it because i have no choice but to believe its true, because every shred of evidence i've ever seen in my entire life, and even the one or two mystical kensho like experiences i've had all point to the same conclusion, not only does freewill not exist but the whole idea of it is an oxymoron. I want you to prove me wrong, its just that sadly no one has. i read all the counter arguements and everyone was either not based in logic or derived from a misunderstanding of my premises or conclusions.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2079810 - 11/07/03 05:26 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Damnit i really did indent, dont know why it didnt show up right...anyways i forgot to add that it is also a mistake to assume that the quantum world has no effect on the macro world, the quantum world is the foundation of the macro world, just like the foundation of a building if you remove it, the building cannot stand. Also more and more experiments are begining to show that quantum forces are present in the macro world but just very hard to detect, but as our ability to measure those forces gets better we are finding them at larger and larger scales.(i read alot of science and tech news) Also i forgot to add that freewill is by no means a settled issue in philosophy, or science. It is possible that most people believe in freewill but even those philosophers who believe it are still scrambling to justify those beliefs. Ofcourse it is possible that proof for or against freewill exists and the problem is that some of us refuse to believe it, that probably is infact the situation. I'd bet my life it doesnt but i understand how hard that belief is to adopt and come to terms with, But i'd rather believe what is most likely to be true then believe just because thats what i want to be true. Ofcourse as delusional as i think you all are, i have to admit again that i could be the delusional one....But my math adds up, and its hard to argue with math, other then BLIND faith based arguements.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2079968 - 11/07/03 06:46 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

All I am saying is hit return every once and awhile. :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: OkEyToKeY]
    #2080307 - 11/07/03 10:23 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Okey writes:

Observable to who?

Everyone.

What particular overt, behavioral responses have you seen in people other than yourself that prove free will exist?

Your response to this thread, for one. Note that even if the only behavioral responses I had seen were my own, that too would validate the existence of free will. If I (a human) possess it, other humans do as well.

Basically, just because we don't understand how the decision making process works, doesn't mean we can discount it as free will or the absence thereof.

The process of making a decision necessarily involves free will. If the "decision" is made for you, it is not a decision, but a reaction.

All we can rightly say is that, if the person said yes, and raised their right hand, is that they did exactly that. And if that's exactly what they did, then that is the only choice they had to them at the time, because they made that choice. If they had a different one, they would have made that instead.

Nonsense. The fact that a person, faced with the choice of A or B, chooses A, does not mean he had to choose A.

That leaves us two options as to how that choice was made...

Again, if actions are determined either by predestination or by randomness, it is inaccurate to use the word "choice".

We can't answer that question, and we never will be able to.

Yeah, we can. Let's do another thought experiment. Mentally flip a coin in your head, then write down the result. You can choose to write "heads" a dozen times in a row, or a hundred times, or a thousand times. Or you can choose to mix "heads" and "tails". Or you can choose to write "squonk". Or you can choose to write nothing at all.

Those who claim there is no free will are of necessity saying we have no control over our actions. This is so demonstrably untrue that it shouldn't stand close inspection for more than a couple of minutes.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2080346 - 11/07/03 10:42 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

ZenGecko writes:

'm not trying to insult anyone by saying that i'm jost pointing out that some of you may not have the basic scientific knowledge, understanding of logical rules, and grasp of philosophy to mount a serious logical counter arguement.

Sorry, my friend, but it is you who appears not to have a firm grasp of logic, scientific knowledge, and philosophy.

You insist the only way to explain the actions of a conscious being is to say they are either random or predetermined. You leave out a third possibility -- that these actions are volitional. This is a gap in your "logic".

You then go on to discount the evidence of your senses, ignoring the fact that all your knowledge, and all your mathematical rules, were derived from sensory input -- observation of the universe. If the senses are not delivering accurate information to humans, any system (i.e. mathematics) derived from that information by humans cannot be trusted either. If this is true, trying to support your argument through mathematical or scientific concepts is futile.

If you converted my sentences to mathmatical form, assigning a number or letter, or symbol to each primise and added the premises up you cannot help but come to the sum or conclusion that i have if you follow the rules of logic(i've taken a class on it, i know a lil bit about it)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Your exclusion of the third alternative is a common logical fallacy.

but unlike me, your not offering a logically consistant set of arguements for doing so, or your not accepting my premises which is ok, but then the burden of disproving them in a logical and constistent manner is up to you, which so far none have risen to that challenge, the arguements are faith based and sense based, not logically based.

First, your argument is not logically consistent. It lacks rigor. See above.

Second, my argument has nothing to do with faith and everything to do with observable reality. Humans routinely engage in action that is neither random nor mechanistic, but purposeful. This is readily observable.

You claim you want to believe free will exists, but you refuse to accept the evidence of your own senses as valid. There is therefore no way anyone can ever prove to you it exists.

pinky


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OfflineZenGecko
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Registered: 11/02/03
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Re: Big Questions (comments on free will) [Re: Phred]
    #2082912 - 11/08/03 02:54 AM (17 years, 11 months ago)

Pinky, once and for all, all my senses tell me it doesn't exist. So either your senses are wrong or mine are. Either way that right there proves that sense data can not be relied upon to be completely accurate, and yes your right that probably does extend into the mathmatical world, but its the best we got. Its the most rifined and accurate application and interpretation of sense data. As for this volition you speak of, what is that? explain to me how it comes about with out a cause, or with out being randomn. People are failing to consider the implications here. What i'm saying besides the ideas of freewill being nonsense, so are the words, decision, choice. The are conceptions based on perceptions, but the perceptions are false, and/or the conceptions are false. Its just like in quantum physics where the way things are totally do not jive with the way we experience things to be in everyday life, but yet, underneath it all, that is fundamentally the way things are, and we are just barely begining to wrap our minds around that strangeness. Someone please explain to me what lies between randomness and determinism, and how that thing comes about, so many of you are claiming that it exists but no one can describe it, or how it works other then saying, "its freewill man" Excluding Volition is not a logical fallacy, I looked the word up just to make sure i got the meaning right, and volition means to make a choice. I already out lined that if your choice is caused by something, and i explained how it always is, then it isn't really a choice. The words "volition" and "choice" are just conceptions used to expain appearant reality, but the way reality appears isnt fundamentally how it really is...ie quantum physics. So again i ask, if my i make a "choice" and it isnt a random choice, and the choice wasnt caused by anything, then how did i make it, what mechanism allowed me to choose, and how does this mechanism work, where does it live?
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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