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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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My Meditative Experiences
    #2166233 - 12/07/03 12:26 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It's troubling to see people's reactions to my
actual meditative experiences which I choose to
share in the interest of benifiting everyone :frown:
I mean, why is it so unbelivable that meditation
may not be the panacea it's purported to be ?
I'm not selling a book or otherwise making any
financial gains by sharing my experience. It's
just the plain truth as accurately as I can describe
it. Just because my experiences were negative does
not automatically mean that "I don't know how to
meditate or that I'm doing it wrong", altho that
is a possibility...
Anyhoos, I feel like a kid who's ranting  :rolleyes:
but I just get the same feel about meditation as
I do from folks about shrooms - that they're some
Divine portal to some imagined Utopic state...
they're not...
That's all Folks :sun:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: lucid]
    #2166245 - 12/07/03 12:37 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The darkness will be experienced through meditation, and that is healthy, if approached from the right angle, and handled appropriately. I don't think anyone thinks you're doing it wrong, just that you obsess over it in a way. Maybe you're supposed to? I don't know.

But what I do know is that in order for growth to occur, there must be balance, and balance is achieved by experiencing both the negative and positive, the darkness and the light, and integrating them.
So no, I don't think you're doing anything wrong.. but maybe you are selling yourself short by assuming that is all you will get from it. That's not. There are many levels. Beyond the hideous darkness and malignance lies other things of a hopeful and benevolent nature. It's good that you warn us about your negative experiences through meditation, but that is not the experience to end all. Mileage may vary by person.

What I'm saying is just because your experiences were negative, does not mean everyone elses will be, nor does it mean that yours will always be. The negative exists to help us grow, it is there for evolutionary purposes. If you experienced these things you did so for a reason, use them as a tool for learning. Just my two pesos.  :sun:


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: Shroomism]
    #2166252 - 12/07/03 12:42 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks Shroomism, very eloquently put :smile:
I concur :sun:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: lucid]
    #2166258 - 12/07/03 12:46 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

BTW, I just want to point out that Meditation is not
simply an activity (or lack thereof, words fail me here),
altho it may be intially. It is more of a stance
that one develops (i.e. that of impartial observer).
So, refering to the number of hours meditated during the
day become a moot point...
After a while the boundry between meditating and not, fades.
So when people tell me to "meditate less", I'm not sure how
to respond...
it's like telling someone "well now you should become completely
identified with your thoughts
" - see how ridiculous
that sounds :smirk:


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: lucid]
    #2166267 - 12/07/03 12:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

A wiser (wo?)man once said "This Too Shall Pass"

I believe that to be the case
Personally, I haven't "meditated" in some months, I just don't feel the need. Whereas I used to to sit down and say to myself, ok I'm going to meditate now...I don't have that thought anymore. I suppose I still do meditate, but I don't tell myself that's what I'm doing. I just gaze off into space and let it flow.. whether I'm in line at the grocery store, drifting off to sleep, staring at the wall, or sitting in a car.. it doesn't matter.. I just enter that state with no preconceptions of what is going to happen. I don't label it as meditation anymore. For me this seems to have resulted in a more subconscious insightful experience, for example my dreams have gotten extremely vivid and intense, and I am remembering them much more frequently.

I too have experienced this "darkness" that you speak of through meditation. For me it manifested in obsessive thoughts about death, murder.. the most graphic and brutally violent images you can imagine.. running rampant through my head. I was depressed for a long time. Eventually, I was able to face these things with love and transcend them in a way. They are merely a part of the dark repressed subconscious, as hard as it is to admit... an aspect of our own consciousness. To clear these things, one must first be aware of them, and from there it is only a matter of facing them. You have step one out of the way, and it appears as if you are working on step two. I wish you much love and insight in the process.

Meditation if anything, allows us to focus our mind. Do not these negative things give your consciousness a laser beam like quality? And from what I am taught, that is the bottom line of meditation... to increase concentration. So in a way, this darkness or negativity is a positive thing, that not only helps you to expand your ability to perceive and focus.. but also deal with and transcend negative things in a positive light. It's a double whammy.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: Shroomism]
    #2166311 - 12/07/03 01:24 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

A wiser (wo?)man once said "This Too Shall Pass"

Geez, another useless New Age cliche. As we all die everything shall pass, so what? Bad conditions will change to good and good to bad? Not at all. When your child comes down with leukemia just tell him, "This too, shall pass." Or when you are arrested and are given life imprisonment for "manufacturing" pot and / or shrooms, just remember, "This too, shall pass."


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: Swami]
    #2166315 - 12/07/03 01:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yep.. now you got it.. sort of...

No like when you're stuck in the middle of a hurricane, this too shall pass.

Or when you're dying slowly and painfully, this too shall pass

Or when any of life's temporary situations are occurring, this too shall pass.

Yeah sure the drugs laws are shit, and unjust, but this too shall pass.

It's not useless at all. It recognizes and acknowledges the endless cycle and eternal process of evolution and transformation, that is innate in our earthly existance. The seasons, the rotation of the earth and moon, the tides, the disasters, our experiences. None of them are forever, it is a cycle. And this too shall pass.


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Offlineeve69
--=..Did Adam and ...?=--
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Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: Shroomism]
    #2166434 - 12/07/03 02:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

There's different types of meditation, and for most people vipissana makes them dissociative and stupid. Ask around. It's not the best meditation and one should have some degree of shamatha with object and without before trying to bring insight into experience. Vipasana is not witnessing as most people translate it, no, it's actually more awareness, as developed through shamatha.  No more awareness all you do is make yourself stressed out by dividing the mind. Vipasana is a fucked up technique for all but a select few.  :nut:


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...or something







Edited by eve69 (12/07/03 03:54 PM)


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: eve69]
    #2166571 - 12/07/03 03:19 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Shroomism: Thanks for the positive thoughts and for
sharing your own experience, I'm going thro something
similar :sun:
Swami: :lol: man, that was depressive, realistic, but depressive :grin: - I think I'm becomming more n more like u :nut: :tongue:
eve69: dissociative and stupid sounds like me :crazy: but
Vipassena does make sense on a logical level. I'm not
sure what the classical definition of Vipassena is, so
lets forget the word and call the meditation I perform
"mindfulness" meditation (i.e. nonjudgemental observation
of thoughts and the bodily/psychological reactions to
those thoughts).  Any other "technique" really seems like
Self-Hypnosis and not meditation. e.g. chanting mantra's or
meditating on "how wonderful or beautiful something is" is
simply re-inforcement and hence a form of self-hypnosis.

Thanks everyone for their feedback :sun:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlineenotake2
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Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: lucid]
    #2167007 - 12/07/03 06:39 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

"(i.e. nonjudgemental observation
of thoughts and the bodily/psychological reactions to
those thoughts)."

Do you use that with the emotions and visions that arise through the process? At the vipassana retreat we were taught to remain equanamous to those too. I found that produced interesting results in terms of insight. Though personally I don't practice vipassana anymore because I associate it with the negative experience I had with it.


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Computer games don't affect kids. I mean if Pacman affected our generation as kids, we'd all be running around in a darkened room, munching pills and listening to repetitive electronic music.

"Being bitter and hateful is like drinking a vial of poison and hoping the other person gets sick" FreakQLibrium

"My motto from here on out is: If someone or something (including me) in my life is conducting themselves in such a way that they can be seen on Jerry Springer, it's time to take out the garbage!!! When you stop taking their behaviour personally and see their antics as a true reflection on their character, it becomes absolutely nauseating." Anon. on abusive relationships.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
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Re: My Meditative Experiences [Re: enotake2]
    #2167178 - 12/07/03 07:44 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

enotake2 said:
"(i.e. nonjudgemental observation
of thoughts and the bodily/psychological reactions to
those thoughts)."

Do you use that with the emotions and visions that arise through the process?




Absolutely :smile:
a lot of people only apply it to internal dialogue, but
there is more to thought than internal dialogue, i.e.
imagery, feelings etc...
I try to impartially observe it all and any reactions
that arise...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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