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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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whats the experience of one man meditating...
    #1958001 - 09/27/03 09:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Hi folks
I have access to a really slow machine for a few more days, but I
wanted to share something with u while I'm actually going thro it,
instead of after the fact.
So I've been meditating fairly intesively for the last 2 days and have
managed to get into seemingly long periods of "no-mind" - i.e.
little or no internal dialogue or attachement to ideas, sensations etc...
Popular New Age proponents will have u believe that this is the
ultimate state of Bliss characterized by overwhelming joy, peace etc.
I just want to point out that I have nothing to gain here either way
- it's not like I'm publishing a book. In fact I've been meditating
fairly regularly for a long time now and have always been an advocate.
My experience in the last 2 days is by no means a judgement...for once
I just wanted to state the facts - as an impartial observer and post them
as I experience them, without giving my memory a chance to idealize,
minimize or exagerate the experience later on...so here goes...

The states of no-mind have been accompanied by very unpleasent
feelings and sensations... I have felt utter dispair, fear and a complete
sense of depersonalization and dettachment from joy. Since the purpose
of mindfulness meditation is to be aware of everything non-judgementally
I have allowed these feelings to be (instead of trying to distract myself
or try to change them in any way) - which is what visipanna meditation is
all about. In any case the feelings did not alleviate in anyway and became
considerably worse...but i've made a commitment to see where this leads
in the interest of self exploration.
The depersonalization and dettachment has been extreemly "unpleasent"
as well (this is a bit difficult to explain since the point of meditation is to
not label experiences and give them an identity and a permenant place,
but I'm trying to describe the feelings at the level of raw suffering/peace)
At times I feel a complete lack of self at which point the brain seems
to want to shut down automatically - vision gets blury and all interest
in the world of perception is gone.
In short it's been "awful"...
I've never experienced such dysphoria while meditating before,
but these states are deep, deeper than I've ever experienced before -
the shift in conciousness has been farily radical.
I feel quite surreal and in dispair even as I write this...
I can't exactly "stop meditating" since I've experienced
a shift in awareness... I'm aware of my thought processes
to the point of depersonalization - I feel like I'm someone else
watching a really sad, horrible movie (the sad horrible movie
being me - if that makes sense). Also, this state feels very
"dream" like - not more "awake" as some have described the
state of a quiet mind. I've also been feeling very sleepy and
out of focus/dettached from the world - I think this is the minds
defense mechanism when it is not interested in anything out there
and is also feeling awful, it just tries to shut down.
I'll write more as I get the chance...

I don't want to elicit recommendations - but they are welcome.
frankly at this point I'm really at a loss about my state, what to do
about it or if anyone can really help.
I really just wanted to share my experience without judging it or
biasing it myself.

No drugs were involved (I've never taken anything after my terrifying
shroom trip 8 months ago which I spoke of on the shroomery - my
only time on shrooms)

Love u all :smile: (for once I choose not to use emoticons until this
smiley cause I wanted to present an experience without biasing it too much) 


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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OfflineCleverName
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1958198 - 09/27/03 10:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

balance...maybe your meditating a bit too much. have you've been being active during these heavy meditation days? maybe keep going on, gently. i dunno


--------------------
if you can't find the truth right where you are, where else do you expect to find it?

this is the purpose


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Offlinelucid
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: CleverName]
    #1958229 - 09/27/03 10:23 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

awareness is one thing that requires no balance
but is in balance naturally - or so the
meditative and new age sages say.
In any case, meditation is not so much of a thing
done in degrees - at least not at the point I'm at
(even tho I realize I implied that when I said "intensely"
meditating). It's a non-judgemental awareness
n that's cultivated to bring about a dissacociation
with the "false" egoicm mind-identified self...
the claim is that that's what results in peace
(peace is not saught directly)...

I've been active, try to do walking meditation

But I must emphesis that meditation is no longer a
"choice" - I mean what should I do ? go to the street
corner and try to absorb myself in passing chix :grin:
I'm at a point where I can no longer "induce"
materialistic desire or "ordinary" fleeting conciousness
where the mind is constantly babbling away...



--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Anonymous

Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1958570 - 09/28/03 01:14 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Not much I can say but I get your shit dog


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1959080 - 09/28/03 06:49 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

lucid said:
I'm aware of my thought processes
to the point of depersonalization - I feel like I'm someone else
watching a really sad, horrible movie (the sad horrible movie
being me - if that makes sense).




It makes absolute sense. One of the main points is to come up with a perspective that is not attached to your life at all, an inpartial, unjudging observeration point that everything that happens in your life can be ran through, to see what is really going on, what the real deal is..

Your real life ends up just like a movie. But I think that your detached state of mind isn't all that detached yet, because it is still labeling your life as sad and horrible, and whatnot..

Or maybe you are truly not happy with what is going on in your life, and this is making it apparent? We have one life to live, so pursue what it is that really makes you happy, something fufilling, maybe an interest that can also make a career or love, who knows, it is all up to you...

I need to start meditating more, at least once a day.. The benefits are immense..

But yeah, keep meditating, man, and you will be clued in on the source of your problems or negative emotions.. I think that your ego still has a big control over yourself, otherwise you wouldn't really be experiencing all the negative shit..

Hope that helped! :grin:
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1959155 - 09/28/03 08:16 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Hmmm..

I myself meditate quite extensively. Also I get off on(Theocosmologic) philosophy and you can say that unifying science and religion yanks my crank like you won't believe. In short I'm cracking hard nuts on the existential side, so be assured I'm not being casual about this.

I can only address this from my point of view, so I could be completely wrong.

There's a conscious and a subconscious mind, the latter steering the part we generally are aware of. There's current and undercurrent.

Dysphoria stems off of conflict, and usually this comes from the subconscious mind. You might be shifting from one worldview to another and therefore experience this unpleasantness. It certainly means that something isn't OK under the surface, something that needs your attention.

It might be a regular, garden variety kind of conflict but it may also be you can get potentially into psychologic problems.
Your logic seems sound, but you talk about "depersonalisation" and "detachment" which sounds pretty eerie, especially combined with the statement that meditation is no longer voluntary (which I might misunderstand).

New Age proponents can suck my dick. I heard one of them comment on a friend that his psychotic decompensation was a unique and blessed opportunity to examine his spirituality now he was detached from "so-called logic". I replied that talk like that might offer him the unique and blessed opportunity to examine his incisor teeth as they might well become detached from his gums.

Seriously: New Age people say all sorts of stuff. A lot of it is correct in my view but some things clearly are harmful to the believers or the people around them. Spirituality can be great, a cosmic party, just make sure Charles Manson isn't your tripguide and Rev. Jim Jones isn't the one serving the Kool-Aid.

As I see it you have got an undercurrent going on that your consciousness tries to hold back. On moments the consciousness is lessened (meditation, the stage between wakefullness and sleep, all forms of psychoactive drugs and stressing events) you see more of what's going on underneath, and that may not always be pleasant. People may be perfectly peaceful on the outside yet be unaware of a raging turmoil under the surface of their consciousness.

Now usually this stuff is self-regulatory, but occasionally things can go sour. I notice a lot of things in your writing that sounds like mental depression but there's also an element of depersonalisation you yourself recognise too. Sometimes moods and perception may go haywire together for some days or perhaps for too long.

The first thing I'd do were I in your position was share this with a person physically close to you (parent, spouse, friend) who can intervene by *being there* should the going get rough. And things can get pretty rough.

I've had several extremely rough times that spontaneously resolved and a dysphorically, not-too-bad but draining experience that needed pharmacological intervention (amphetamine psychosis). Usually it is not the intensity that determines the severity from a psychologic point of view but the duration of the event.

Next stop for me would be to get report with a good psychologist NOW. If this is one bridge too far for you make sure you're regularly checked up on by the loved one you confided too. If it isn't a panicky person but he/she generally has sound judgement allow this person to make the call if things have taken a nosedive, give him/her permission to call in a psychologist should this happen and commit yourself to accepting their judgement when it is time.

If you live alone the ideal situation would be to have said loved one move in with you (or vice versa) for a few days or to at least hand over a key. If you've got a job or class I'd say call in sick for a week if you think that's called for.

If you'd like to cut & paste your post over to Support Group Central since there's a general help-a-dude-out atmosphere which may be quite heartwarming. Your thread title is a wee bit too vague to get advice & such poured all over you.

Yay! I hope I did not scare you shitless with my "mental self-defence" program but as I read it you are feeling quite bad all of a sudden and I read stuff in it which brings that point across.

It is likely that all this will just blow over and the sun will shine once more in two weeks or so since its onset. But it's also quite possible things will not be that short lived and that sustained hard work is called for. It might require a prescribed pharmaceutical or a similar medical intervention, or it may just be a shitty week of spiritual upheaval.

Try to get as comfy as you can under the circumstances and avoid anything you don't feel like doing. Talk with friends (RL or online), listen to some music,try to just ride it out by avoiding nor diving into stuff too much.

I'm not online often lately but feel free to PM me.
*hugs* we care man!


.


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Anonymous

Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: Asante]
    #1959168 - 09/28/03 08:42 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

this life isnt actually who we are, we are much greater than this while out of body(meaning, no longer living this life)

so when you seem to be watching a movie of yourself, YOU ARE. It is the life of "blah blah" whoever you are in this life. Not who/what you really are. you are an all powerful spiritual being, you are LOVE, so the hardtimes you face in life are going to be sad/horrible. Instead of seeing the negative(through the ego) see the positive side of everything(through the heart)


i am thinking maybe it is FEAR that is causing you negative feelings, you decied what you are afraid of, it can be anything.


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Offlinelucid
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: ]
    #1963310 - 09/29/03 06:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Hey folks,
I just got back from 3 days of moving furniture and meditating
(yup interesting combo). I have to point something out about
my little expidition... if u ask a Zen "practitioner" about
when they meditate they might retort with something like
"all the time". Essentially, when the goal of life is to
be more aware then every oportunity can be used for this
purpose. Some people have a hectic life and find it more
convinient to set aside some time to sit and formally enter
and leave a "mindful" state - they call this meditation.
For me, meditation has been more of the former (especially
now that I'm unemployed and have more time on my hands).
In this particular period I was going to help my mom
move out in the mountains and thought it might do me
good to meditate out in nature. This is what I was doing
and reported about. I've managed to become aware of my own
awarenss (if that makes any sense at all) - this "sensation"
of awareness is generally accompanied by a quieting of the
mind (i.e. much fewer thoughts and labelling). Interestingly,
I am aware that this sensation is new and distinct from my
previous "ordinary conciousness". Please, I really want to
stress that I have nothing to sell or advocate here - no
personal gain except to share my experience. I wish more
people would do that. And I wanted to share it while it
happens in as unbiased a view as possible.
My new awareness was also distinctly accompanied by what
I can only describe as a sense of detachment (as eerie
as that sounds) and distinct despair and unpleasentness...
But I must be clear to point out that I've been in a
Shroom induced depression for the past 8 months now and
am on Effexor (an SSRI), which I've recently tried to
wean off of. So yes, I'm certain that has something to
do with all of this, but my point is that by meditating
and finding myself in this new state I found myself
feeling worse not better. So, the popuplar "thoughts/
internal dialogue is the enemy and cause of all suffering"
New Age tenent seems to not apply to me (perhaps it works
for others - I'll never know).
I'm going to keep writing more details about my experience
throughtout the eve today, so please check back if u can
and feedback is always welcome :smile:

"Your logic seems sound, but you talk about "depersonalisation" and "detachment" which sounds pretty eerie, especially combined with the statement that meditation is no longer voluntary (which I might misunderstand)."
Yes, my logic was sound throught the experience, however there
was a feeling of things being surreal (like in a dream) and
I was scared that even tho I thought I might be rational
and logical I might not be (common fear in people with
Anxiety and Depression after PTSD - Post Traumatic Stress Disorder).
All those around me however comforted me and told me that
I was extreemly rational. I've had this fear ever since I took
the shrooms about 8 months ago - my shrink (yes I am seeing one)
sez that I am not insane in any way, just anxious and depressed.
But sometimes, like even when writing this thread, and any
time I focus inward on myself and my thoughts I panic that
I may go insane. I also often worry that meditation might
drive me insane (please no comment on this - I'd rather not know
:smirk: )

"If this is one bridge too far for you make sure you're regularly checked up on by the loved one you confided too. If it isn't a panicky person but he/she generally has sound judgement allow this person to make the call if things have taken a nosedive, give him/her permission to call in a psychologist should this happen and commit yourself to accepting their judgement when it is time."
Jeebus, have some confidence in me  :crazy:
I ain't crazy...yet  :smirk: :grin:
BTW, I've been seeing a CBT shrink for the past 3 months and
am on SSRI's...

Feedback is more than welcome :smile:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1963476 - 09/29/03 07:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

It sounds as though through meditation you reached the consciousness level of spirit, and there you discovered the anxiety and negative thoughts you had pushed into the subconscious..still there.. waiting to be transcended. This is a good thing, by the way. Perhaps the detachment you speak of is your recognition of spiritual consciousness, being you, as a seperate entity from your waking, physical thought patterns.

The key is neutrality. Not positivity, not negativity.. just be neutral.. BE. Face those things, embrace them with love, because love is the way. You are not going crazy, anxiety and depression is just a temporary feeling resulting from repressed emotions. Face them.



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Offlinelucid
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: Shroomism]
    #1963577 - 09/29/03 07:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks Shroomism :smile:
I've read about meditators facing fear/depression etc
just before they make a "break thro".
I'm not quite sure how/if I'm going to proceed to be
honest or try to lose myself in distractions, but
I have a feeling that knowing my habit of following
things through, I will probably continue meditating
and facing the emotions that come into awareness...
I'll keep this thread updated if I experience anything
significant.
One thing I must say tho is that I am truely amazed
at the shift in conciousness (even tho mine was unpleasent)
that can be brought about by meditation. I have never
experienced something so radical in my life.
I used to think that all this talk
of shifts in conciousness was bull and also
thought that in the unlikely event that it
was real, it would be very pleasent. Both preconceptions
turned out to be wrong.
At this moment I seem to be able to shift my
conciousness either way, I can distract myself by
thinking about thoughts the past etc, or I can
"become aware of my awareness" (this tends to
immediately quiet the mind all by itself - very interesting
side effect).
I'm considering seeing where this leads, esp if
there is indeed something more peaceful at the
next shift in conciousness (peeling the onion - pick
your analogy :grin:). I just hope insanity is
not the other end :crazy: but I'm hoping that meditation
doesn't lead to madness, otherwise we'd have a lot
of wild monks rolling down the Tibettan mountains
and plundering villages in the valley's below :smirk:
seems like most inhumane acts are carried out by
unconcious mind-identified folks who don't question
their desires but instead are driven to madness by them.
But this is all "thinking" and rationalizing...
I could be completely wrong...
I will allow for that possibility so as not to make
meditation just another thing that I "believe" in.
:smile:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1963777 - 09/29/03 09:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Another good example of why NOT to have preconceptions. Just let it flow, be natural.. you KNOW what to do.


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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1963778 - 09/29/03 09:00 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Another good example of why NOT to have preconceptions. Just let it flow, be natural.. you KNOW what to do.


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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: Shroomism]
    #1963938 - 09/29/03 09:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

I think what he means is lack of opinion/interest/absorbing useless knowledge that helps in social situations is what he finds unpleasant. The inability to relate with peers.

Of course I could be wrong but that is what I am expirencing.

I rarely think anymore. I feel completely subdued in impartiality and an incredible feeling of acceptance. But at the same time I feel alienated with no one to share my true consciousness with. I still love my friends and fellow human beings...its just I wish I could relate to them on a materialistic level more. Hell sometimes I try to fake it but its like I just dont "get it" anymore.

My cup has been emptied but no one likes to drink from an empty cup.


--------------------
As the life of a candle,
my wick will burn out.
But, the fire of my mind
shall beam into infinite.



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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1965239 - 09/30/03 07:50 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Hey Lucid, great to have you back!

Man, you have major madness issues :smirk:
I recognise that because I have had some quite substantial run-ins with it myself. There are two big fears that fry people to their chairs with terror, especially on psychedelics.

The first one is fear of dying right then and there, and the second one is the fear of going insane. (I myself have been to the intensive care unit and have experienced psychosis, so "been there, done that", lucky me :nut:)

The fear of crossing the borders to the Beyond and Insanity is essentially the same one. The shrink would say it is "fear of letting go, of losing control, a psychological crisis" and the shaman would call it "losing faith in the Divine Plan, a spiritual crisis"

The problem with the two is that many a shrink tends to sneak up on the shaman and jabs a syringe'o'haldol up his buttock without really listening openmindedly, but then again many a shaman looks at the shrink and thinks "poor, poor creature, oblivious to the divine light, how I pity your wretched existence" and says a prayer on the whitecoat, being as closed-minded as the shrink by another guise of the same aloofness.

I think both sides of the story are equally valid. My rational/scientific mind listens to the shrink and my emotional/spiritual mind listens to the shaman. I think a balance between the two is in order.

Lemme start on "madness". Madness has a name, it's basically the class of "psychotic disorders". In order for psychosis to happen some very specific things have to happen in your brain. You can get a very stressfull/traumatic (sequence of) events (or psychoactive drugs like amphetamine in my case) and this may indeed cause the switch to flip, but only if you're susceptible to it. Psychosis isn't for anyone.

Just because your leg hurts doesn't mean it is broken. It can hurt for all sorts of reasons and be equally painful, but a broken leg is a very specific medical condition with special features, just like the group of psychotic disorders.

When I hear you out you've basically got it together. Your moods etc. are all over the place, but I see no true indicator of "madness", this being a significant scrambling of your logic. Your logic is pretty sound. And since your shrink assures you you aren't in the process of going mad, I'd say trust him on that.


Now a fear you express is that meditation may drive you mad. That you "don't want to know" tells me your fear of it is huge. Well let me alleviate that with the "scientific truth": it is highly unlikely that meditation will drive you mad/psychotic, and meditation can never be the sole cause. Meditation gone sour is like someone smacking your leg with a ruler. It can hurt very, very bad but it is very unlikely that you'll break your leg (psychosis) because of it.

So meditation isn't something likely to make one insane. A chap may get odd because of it though, and thats a big difference.

Listen to a Terence McKenna tape. When you hear this guy talking 9 out of 10 will say: "the man's INSANE :nut:" But hear him out objectively and you'll discover his logic isn't scrambled at all. He'll talk in an odd manner, he'll say decidedly odd things but that's about it.

Oddness is very, very different from madness. If you ask a guy like Alexander Shulgin: "A penny for your thoughts!" He'd shrug his shoulders and say:
"Well, since you ask: A 2-fluoroethyl group mimicks one of the heavier halogens pharmacologically in many instances. Now I've slapped it plainly onto the 4-position of 2,5-dimethoxyphenethylamine and its alpha-methyl homologue and I've slapped it onto a sulfur atom in my 2C-T-21 and ALEPH-21. It might be interesting to extrapolate this to a 2-fluoroethyl-phenyl ether but let's first give the metabolics and polar calculations a swirl as we wouldn't want cleavage and subsequent metabolic formation of fluoroacetic acid but all in al it looks pretty sexy..."

This doesn't make good conversation in the local bar nor would it likely be appreciated as romantic pillowtalk. If a railroad worker told this to your average Joe Shrink, he just might get jumped by three orderlies and get a pharmacological exorcism to drive the demon of madness from his mind.

But this isn't madness: just like Terence McKenna's or the Pope's considerations this is ODDNESS. "Oddness" basically means you're into stuff that isn't shared nor understood by most people, while your logic is poor to excellent, but not scrambled like in psychosis.

Now chemistry, religion, psychedelics, meditation, art, poetry, philosophy and what-have-you-not can all make you quite odd, meaning it can make communication between you and others more difficult. The point with oddness is that you can (slowly and perhaps difficultly) learn to keep it back a little should you feel the need, and maintain a linkup with "consensus reality", this being able to follow the line of reasoning most are comfortable with.

With madness this is lost. "Consensus Reality" loses its meaning. "Personal Hygiene" loses its meaning. The dividing line between the look and smell of your livingroom and a landfill slowly dissolves and finally the tying of shoelaces is beyond your grasp.


Meditation might make you odd, but it does not make your functioning fall apart. I would not call you odd (though I am :evil:) but you do not display signs of madness to me nor your shrink.
I dumped this rant on you to assure you that there is no special reason to fear madness when meditating. Please try to relax on the whole madness bit.


If you got toetagged "PTSD" I'd say this explains the whole thing from a shrink's point of view. Since you put out a lot of signs of active depression and the Effexor tends to smoothen both ailments I'd say stay on it for a while if it helps you. The Effexor is not a sign your "willpower is inferior" or that your "spirit is flawed" or any New Age fascism like that. Do not go on guilt or shametrips like that.

If there's some benefit to be had from this pharm I'd say go for it. If you fear addiction, this will not worsen should you take it for a longer time as you have been on it for months. Try to relax and make yourself more comfortable.

*****

As far as I understand the Nothingness-Bliss continu?m peace should give rise to the nothingness and is followed by Bliss and not the other way around. If you found the right path on the right time the Divine Bliss will befall you. But it is all too possible to sink into the nothingness without having conquered the Nemesis: Fear itself.

Fear, dissatisfaction and unpleasantness go hand in hand. They are  heads of the same dragon. Many seem to think this dragon should be slain, but it cannot. You can't fight fire with fire.

Bliss can only be achieved if conflict is ceased: Peace can only be if you stop fighting the war, and bliss can only follow in the wake of peace.

In order to get enraptured by the Divine Bliss you must find your peace with the entirety of the All. All conflicts you ever knew should cease and dissolve into a sense of Understanding and Acceptance.

On these moments a stillness will come over you and it is there that the true Divine Bliss can be found. When all wars are truced, when you embrace the Any and All with perfect love and perfect trust the waves of conscious dialoge *of conflict* will hush and then the Divine Bliss, that is present inside of you always, will manifest fully and you will be engulfed by it. And on that moment, for that period, time will be eternal and cease to have meaning.

If you come close to the full manifestation of the Divine Bliss there will be an increasing rapture of peace with the any and all. I myself have on the whole moved closer to the Light of Unifying Peace. I have my moments of rapture and times I am further away from it, but the trend has been I am moving closer to it.

I strongly believe that Spiritual Ecstacy is what we all strive for, even those who have lost their way like the Osamas, Asaharas and Bushes of this world. Spiritual Ecstacy I have experienced while sober have left chemical ecstacy and other psychedelics in the dust, but these may help some of us to move closer to it. Others are driven further from Spiritual Ecstacy by psychedelics and these should not imbide.

Should you bathe in the fullness of that Light for the rest of your life you have reached the highest state of awareness and of bliss. But it is unlikely to befall you. More likely is to recieve glimpses of it, moments of relative closeness to the Source. Look for the moments in your life that were closest to Bliss, closest to Perfect Love and Perfect Trust, and you will have found the moments you were closest to the Divine Bliss.

What was it that gave you such uplifting? Was it Love? Was it Meditation? Was it a tablet of Ecstacy you shared with your loved one that gave rise to it? Was it Orgasm that set you free that point in time? Did you find it in Dance, Ceremony or Philosophical Insight?
Examine these moments and you'll discover that allthough the outside world was important to trigger it, it was an inner change that gave rise to it, an expansion of consciousness perhaps, but always it was a shift of awareness.

When I look at your writings I see fear and pain, burdens any human being carries. If emptying your mind alone would do it like the new-agers and unfortunately many spiritual spokesmen claim the human race would be much closer to Hedon (heaven on earth) than it was now. But the knowledges needed to actively strive for the Highest is spread thin.

Many kids in the West have never heard of the true Rapture, but they seek it nontheless. Perhaps they go to some kind of Holy House with their parents, only to find out it is not there. They seek it in school, but find it is void of it as even their teachers are in the dark about it. And then this friend tells them how they have smoked Crack and that they never felt better. So some of them try it, they get their glimpse of Bliss and pay for it by becoming further from it. They become unhappy and troubled, and they then start spreading their unhappiness, all the while moving further from their goal.


True Rapture will only befall you if you go at it by making peace with the Any and All. And it is beautiful. It is beyond your wildest dreams. I have come sufficiently close to it at some blessed moments that even now when I'm just recalling it (like now) I'm uplifted to joy.

Lucid: Try to find peace with the past, present and future, the outward and the inward. Very few will completely succeed in permanently accomplishing this. But strive for moments of relative peace. You will get better at it when time passes because its a skill, just like riding a bicycle. And on special occasions when you're finding exceptional peace the "emptying of mind" will set in all by itself and it WILL be accompanied by the Divine Bliss, and when you return to "internal dialogue mode" as you fortunately will deep personal/spiritual insights will follow in its wake.

*****

To put it scientifically:

Unifying Insight => Inner Peace => Inner Stillness => Divine Bliss => Unifying Insight

As you can see it can be a chain reaction that may very well raise you to more pleasant levels :smile: just like Dividing Insight (dividing up the One into the Many and "taking sides") may cause longer-term unhappy feelings.

To get on the shrink's chair once more I by no means want to imply that you should shun prescribed pharmaceuticals, because when psychotropics are correctly used they can help you on your way to higher levels of functioning which only aids you in your quest. Effexor (if it is right for you) will most certainly not "get you there", but it may aid you in doing the work and once you've done that the pill might well become as obsolete as a wintercoat in summer.


Hey man, your Mind and Spirit know all this, I'm just reminding you. Know that I care and others do too, so don't think you're all alone!
Hope to have helped!






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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
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Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: Asante]
    #1965753 - 09/30/03 01:14 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

WOW ! Excellent post Wiccan :smile:
It really blew me away, n was comforting to see how
many of your ideas resonated with my own (my need
for reassurance :grin: ).
When I look back at my life my most profound and
blissful moments have always been either during
meditation or by a sudden realization of "OMG here I AM"
and always without chemical assistance -  the first
time I every took a drug (even alcohol) was 2 years ago,
and I've been meditating for the past ~12 years (I'm 27)...
Oddly enuff, I had a very blissful experience recently
during "my depression" where the mind quieted down and
I felt like no thought could/would ever bother me - that
moment was like heaven itself. But in the past I've
experienced pure ecstacy during meditation, I have wept
and felt waves of euphoria rising up my body and making
my hair stand on it - no exageration.
Much thanks for the reassurance about meditation :smile:
My shrink and family are opposed to my meditation (they're
subtle about it - they always give me the "it's your
choice...but u know which one to make" attitude :grin: ).
I'd hate to give up meditation or worse yet fear it...
or fear my sudden realizations of "here I am" (which
incidently seems to result in quieting of the mind).
It's interesting that I can be aware of my thoughts/
physical movements and yet still continue the activity
to some extent, it's like being aware of my own heart beat
i.e. being aware doesn't stop your heart from beating...
Would love to chat with u more :smile:
I've decided to keep this thread updated should I have
any more interesting experiences while meditating...
I wonder if they have Internet access in the Pysch Wards :lol:
just kidding :tongue:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1965832 - 09/30/03 01:36 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

BTW, I want to point out that in the past I did what
I would now consider "concentration" meditation - i.e.
focusing on a mantra or more often a beautiful object
(flower, tree etc). Also, it was very thought-oriented
and I would consider it more Self-Hypnosis than meditation
now. This is when I would enter states of rapture and
ecstacy that would make me weep - it was "pleasurable"
to say in the least.
My more recent peaceful experience of "open"
mindfullness/awareness meditation was distinctly different.
I never felt what I would consider ecstacy (as I
described before). I felt more peaceful and blissful - it
was very calm and serene. And then of course, most recently
I felt despair, pervading sadness and anxiety/fear during
a state of "quiet" mind.
So there - just the facts on my meditative experiences :smile:


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,319
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
Re: whats the experience of one man meditating... [Re: lucid]
    #1996644 - 10/10/03 11:54 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Ok, like I posted in Seuss's thread on Egoloss,
I've been meditating considerably lately and here's my
experience...
Yesterday I meditated at the top of a mountain amidst
a large clearing surrounded by trees. It was a bright sunny
fall day and the temperature was quite comfortable.
In all I entered a deep state of meditation and I would
approximate I was in it for about 5 hours...
The mind quieted down considerably (it tends to do this
without any coersion). Thoughts were distinctly not present.
The entire experience was marked by a constant undercurrent
of unplesentness and dispair (but not anxiety). At some point
I seemed to completely lose all sense of myself and even
my pattern matching abilities with which I normally discern
the world were gone. Trees were indistinguishable, and sounds
were incoherent. At times I even completely lost focus and
had extreemly blurred vision. There I sat tho, impartially
and non-judgementally simply noting the entire experience.
I felt dettached from my body at several points.
There was no sense of peace or joy whatsoever, not even
a glimmer or a brief moment of such.
This is my experience, take it as u will...
I think we should all share our meditative experiences
without monetary gain and in complete honesty and as
accurately as words will afford...


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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