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 Alnico
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 A question about meditation. 
#6647708 - 03/08/07 02:23 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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The following isa an excerpt from a guide to Vipassana meditation that I'm using.
"As you keep your mind focused on the rims of your nostrils, you will be able to notice the sign of the development of meditation. You will feel the pleasant sensation of sign. Different meditators feel this differently. It will be like a star, or a peg made of heartwood, or a long string, or a wreath of flowers, or a puff of smoke, or a cob-web, or a film of cloud, or a lotus flower, or the disc of the moon or the disc of the sun.
Earlier in your practice you had inhaling and exhaling as objects of meditation. Now you have the sign as the third object of meditation. When you focus your mind on this third object, your mind reaches a stage of concentration sufficient for your practice of insight meditation. This sign is strongly present at the rims of the nostrils. Master it and gain full control of it so that whenever you want, it should be available."
I don't exactly understand what a "sign" is. Can anybody clarify this for me?
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 Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6647810 - 03/08/07 04:59 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Is this Goenkaji's version of Vipassana by any chance?
Personally, i wouldn't follow that instruction. Breath is always the best object for meditation, and you don't need to shift your attention to any other object, especially not a temporary experience that arises in meditation. Breath meditation is called Shamatha, whilst Insight meditation is called Vipassana. This whole using 'signs' as an object business sounds like pure hogwash to me.
The only signs that one should reflect on with Vipassana meditation are impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non-self. The practice of Vipassana means to continually reflect on these three signs, making them your point of inquiry. This is a difficult practice, and one should try and be stable in Shamatha practice before attempting to do Vipassana ideally.To do this kind of meditation one also needs to be well versed in what the three marks of existence mean, and how to apply them properly. There is no use picking up a tool, if we don't know what we are to do with it.
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed079.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html
Namaste 
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Edited by Sinbad (03/08/07 05:15 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6647830 - 03/08/07 05:27 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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the sign or motif itself is meaningless.
the concentration has worked to the point where fading sensations thoughts or images are reduced to a key commonality or motif.
The motif is nothing more than a key commonality to a plurality of passing mind moments. Like a shadow that subsumes in the shadows of many ideas.
this motif emerges because the mind has slowed down and become more receptive, and concentration has caused fading thought/image/sensation to fade more slowly.
the thoughts will layer up somewhat and in the wake of their passing a motif or sign emerges.
that sign or motif is a result of the aggregate of layered wakes fading.
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6647840 - 03/08/07 05:35 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
the sign or motif itself is meaningless.
the concentration has worked to the point where fading sensations thoughts or images are reduced to a key commonality or motif.
The motif is nothing more than a key commonality to a plurality of passing mind moments. Like a shadow that subsumes in the shadows of many ideas.
this motif emerges because the mind has slowed down and become more receptive, and concentration has caused fading thought/image/sensation to fade more slowly.
the thoughts will layer up somewhat and in the wake of their passing a motif or sign emerges.
that sign or motif is a result of the aggregate of layered wakes fading.
Nice, but switching the meditation object to the motif seems pointless.
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redgreenvines
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6647881 - 03/08/07 06:11 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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as you and I both know
you wont know till you go
and what does it matter what we think?
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6647941 - 03/08/07 07:13 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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You and I both know through experience that shifting the meditation object from the breath to other objects during meditation leads to further distraction.
The mind is fickle, so its best to pick and object and stay with it, to reduce our distraction with temporary arising experiences.
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Edited by Sinbad (03/08/07 09:13 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6647971 - 03/08/07 07:34 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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when we wash dishes
that is our meditation
finding a sign/motif in things we do will help you soften a too stiff interpretation of dharma.
relax sailor, this is not a threat either
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6648026 - 03/08/07 07:59 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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In every situation (except death) the breath can be used as object . Name one other object that has this quality?
Signs are indication of progress and pointers on the way, but making them into objects of meditation is the path of distraction. Experiences themselves are perfectly innocent, no threat. Being distracted by experiences through shifting the object takes us away from awareness and presence in the moment.
The sailor is relaxed, but not blahsay about the topic. Blahsay would be incorrect dharma.
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redgreenvines
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blow me down [Re: Sinbad]
#6648104 - 03/08/07 08:31 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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i will gladly turn all my comments into to melted chocolate and fall with them through the cracks of the floor before challenging the mettle of your breath strength.
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Sinbad
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You would make delicious fondue. 
EDIT: Just to be clear, breath isn't the only object one can use, but it is the most flexible and calming IME.
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Edited by Sinbad (03/08/07 09:07 AM)
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Sinbad
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I don't know why but it seems like maybe you get the wrong idea and think that everything should be flowing and effortless from the beginning red. Maybe it was my fault for posting that ngingma link that you rated me for. 
It seems like a paradox, but first its essential IME to train to be more present and aware in the moment before we can really fully relax into a state of effortless samadhi. If we don't have that foundation in single pointed presence, then our attempts at being in effortless samadhi will most likely sink into dullness and distraction very easily.
Our minds are distracted most of the time, for this reason training the mind in presence and awareness with meditation is something essential and should never be thought of as secondary or unimportant.
That being said i would love to watch you melt into effortlessness. It would make me very happy. 
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FollowTheMusic
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6648451 - 03/08/07 10:43 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would like to offer a different perspective.
First, I think it's important to distinguish between an aid and a crutch. An aid is something that helps you to progress, and is then effortlessly released when no longer needed. It becomes a crutch when you stubbornly refuse to let go. (Except for actual medical crutches, which begin as aids but often become crutches!  )
There is a story about two students. One is asked to lift a huge boulder with his forearms. The other is asked to first lift a tiny pebble, then a rock, then a boulder with handles affixed, etc. Both attain the same goal; the paths are very different (not better, but different).
Another story: a man must learn martial arts to defend against a great injustice. He begs a master to accept him. Finally, the master agrees and takes him to a field with a newly born calf. "Lift this calf once," the master says. Confused, the student easily does so. The next day, the master again has him lift the calf once. Finally, after a year the student finally loses patience and blurts out, "when can I learn martial arts?!?" "Silly student," replies the master, "you are strong enough to lift a cow!!"
(I'm not trying to patronize, I just think these are neat stories )
Taoism teaches that the body is the vessel that carries you to Enlightenment. It must be abandoned, but not before reaching the goal. Similarly, most esoteric traditions teach that focusing on the chakras and so forth can aid spiritual progress. Now, in an "ultimate" sense, these chakras are illusory. Yes, but so is the food you eat and the clothes you wear. I would say that, until you have mastered Conditioned Reality and are ready for Buddhahood, this is a fairly academic concern!
Regarding the signs themselves, I don't have that much to say. They are esoteric perceptions that you will feel are charged with spiritual energy. You will recognize them if/when they appear. Do not pursue them, or fetishize them, but do recognize their power and gratefully receive their positive aid. Balance awareness of their ultimate dependence with their practical usefulness.
Find the Middle Way. You can train with pebbles and rocks in the morning, and the boulder at night.
Peace and love!
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Sinbad
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Quote:
FollowTheMusic said:
I would like to offer a different perspective.
First, I think it's important to distinguish between an aid and a crutch. An aid is something that helps you to progress, and is then effortlessly released when no longer needed. It becomes a crutch when you stubbornly refuse to let go. (Except for actual medical crutches, which begin as aids but often become crutches! )
Regarding the signs themselves, I don't have that much to say. They are esoteric perceptions that you will feel are charged with spiritual energy. You will recognize them if/when they appear. Do not pursue them, or fetishize them, but do recognize their power and gratefully receive their positive aid. Balance awareness of their ultimate dependence with their practical usefulness.
Find the Middle Way. You can train with pebbles and rocks in the morning, and the boulder at night.
Peace and love!
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FollowTheMusic
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6648479 - 03/08/07 10:53 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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You don't like my stories? I like stories!
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Sinbad
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Hehe, I liked them, just didn't think they were amazingly relevant. the rest was spot on though.
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redgreenvines
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i like your stories lots
illusoriness is when words and thought mean more than what is spoken of.
BTW
food is not illusory excepting that ideas about food can be either illusory,
or they can dance around nicely adding nothing to the food-ness of food.
melted chocolate on the other hand combines food ideas with other delicious stretchy extensions
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6648531 - 03/08/07 11:05 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Illusoriness is just the nature of reality. Even melted chocolate is included under that blanket, along with all the other 'extensions' that are something extra.
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redgreenvines
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6648588 - 03/08/07 11:17 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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how are you sure of that?
are you enlightened?
this term gets a lot of people into deep gooey chocolate.
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6648721 - 03/08/07 11:44 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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You don't need to be enlightened to be sure about illusion. Not understanding the term gets people into deep gooey chocolate, not the term itself.
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redgreenvines
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6648768 - 03/08/07 11:55 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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yes sticky is the
attitude about the terms
i.e. what you use them for
see,
there need be no illusion about this lunch,
unless I carry a f*cked up attitude about it.
the food is not illusory, just how my mind uses reflections of it.
illusoriness is always a quality of mental processes - nama-rupa, not a quality of rupa.
nothing needs to be added to rupa as it is.
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6648831 - 03/08/07 12:10 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Indeed, if you have a real understanding of the three marks of existence, then you will not be under the influence of an illusory, f*cked up attitude. 
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redgreenvines
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6648944 - 03/08/07 12:43 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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in buddhism there is no
"Good to Go" declaration
nor is there any
"damned for all time"
one minute you may "understand" and the next minute you are all alone in the dark.
keeping to the middle way in face of such fluctuation is a real challenge. we ought to expect it.
christian baggage (attitude) has been dragged into the buddhist fields.
eg. "the enlightened one should be good to go, all fixed up, no chance of hell, gone to heaven..."
really lots of this carry over is found to be at root of the "illusoryiness" the mind wraps around things.
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Alnico
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6648977 - 03/08/07 12:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for the posts!
It seems to me that I don't have enough focus to worry about these signs right now. I have been attempting to meditating, focusing on my breath as my guide instructs me to, for almost a month now. I have made progress in improving my concentration but it is relatively poor still. I have noticed a feeling of growing and shrinking at times... does this mean I have achieved some shallow degree of meditation?
This is the guide I am using.
http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english.php
I will probably stick to this guide mainly, but I will definately have a look at those other guides you linked me to, Sinbad.
Edited by Alnico (03/08/07 01:02 PM)
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BlueCoyote
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6649085 - 03/08/07 01:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Alnico said:
The following isa an excerpt from a guide to Vipassana meditation that I'm using.
"As you keep your mind focused on the rims of your nostrils, you will be able to notice the sign of the development of meditation. You will feel the pleasant sensation of sign. Different meditators feel this differently. It will be like a star, or a peg made of heartwood, or a long string, or a wreath of flowers, or a puff of smoke, or a cob-web, or a film of cloud, or a lotus flower, or the disc of the moon or the disc of the sun.
In vipassana one may focus on anything one wants. The 'pointer' to the object of focusing may called 'sign'. I heard about it as 'Kasina'. It is simply the 'frame' around that, what to focus at. The setting of mind, which is/was achieved (before) through samatha, what is described here:
Quote:
Earlier in your practice you had inhaling and exhaling as objects of meditation. Now you have the sign as the third object of meditation. When you focus your mind on this third object, your mind reaches a stage of concentration sufficient for your practice of insight meditation. This sign is strongly present at the rims of the nostrils. Master it and gain full control of it so that whenever you want, it should be available."
Meaning, you can 'remember' this setting of mind, to use it on different subjects/objects to focus on.
I think, it is that simple.
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/08/07 01:24 PM)
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Alnico
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6649174 - 03/08/07 01:38 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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redgreenvines,
"in buddhism there is no
"Good to Go" declaration
nor is there any
"damned for all time"
one minute you may "understand" and the next minute you are all alone in the dark.
keeping to the middle way in face of such fluctuation is a real challenge. we ought to expect it."
I'm afraid I don't understand that. If one was enlightened, would they not be freed from these fluctuations. Maybe it would help if you explained what these fluctuations are in a different way.
Edited by Alnico (03/08/07 01:43 PM)
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Alnico
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6649188 - 03/08/07 01:42 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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BlueCoyote,
Yes, it's making more sense now. I still don't know exactly what a sign is, as I haven't seen a "sign" yet for myself, but I think that I should work on samatha meditation, and develope my concentration further.
Edited by Alnico (03/08/07 01:44 PM)
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BlueCoyote
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6649235 - 03/08/07 01:57 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Exactly ! Then it should explain itself and that's why it's different for each meditator and perhaps it also can change inside one meditator in regards to the thing focused on.
I couldn't recall mine exactly, because it somehow has automatized inside of me, changing constantly [at least at the moment] 
Edited by BlueCoyote (03/08/07 02:04 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6649266 - 03/08/07 02:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Alnico said:
redgreenvines,
"in buddhism there is no
"Good to Go" declaration
nor is there any
"damned for all time"
one minute you may "understand" and the next minute you are all alone in the dark.
keeping to the middle way in face of such fluctuation is a real challenge. we ought to expect it."
I'm afraid I don't understand that. If one was enlightened, would they not be freed from these fluctuations. Maybe it would help if you explained what these fluctuations are in a different way.
OK, well,
I am often bothering sinbad about his christian style buddhism and the tendency of most people, in fact, to think in absolute terms about this stuff.
the banter between sinbad and me is usually me trying to erode his proud certainty of things. even buddhist doctrine or dogma. (and he really does know a lot - what good that knowledge does is another matter!)
meantime,
you are doing a smart thing to begin vipassana and should definitely pursue the line you have started.
my comments to you are that you may or may not notice phenomena that are derived from concentration (you called them signs, and I refer to them as motif when talking about meditation, dreams and psychedelics).
the relative success of your meditation is not dependent upon these signs.
I would say you can tell you are doing well when you begin to recover from distraction without reprimanding yourself. this is the most important training, recovery of a middle way without the baggage of remorse or self recrimination.
usually belittling oneself is the most troublesome element as a meditation student.
then again some people think they already know everything.
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Icelander
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6649312 - 03/08/07 02:21 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would say you can tell you are doing well when you begin to recover from distraction without reprimanding yourself. this is the most important training, recovery of a middle way without the baggage of remorse or self recrimination.
I agree and might also add that limiting expectations and just doing is also a good thing.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6649348 - 03/08/07 02:36 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Its funny how you think i have a xtian attitude, yet have no xtian background whatsoever.
Contrary to a wishy washy approach to things, i believe that dharmic methods can and should be explained as precisely as possible. Why? Because it is very easy, especially with Buddhist thought and practice, to get the wrong idea and venture on an erroneous path.
I do not know everything, and am learning new things everyday. In fact every moment is a new and fresh experience, with something valuable to offer.
But there are certain things, especially with meditation, that cannot and should not be ignored or approached in a less than clear way. This is why i take umbridge with the wishy washy approach, not out of pride, but out of concern for those who really wish to meditate properly and not get caught in sidetracks like i have done in the past.
Whatever you like to think about these banters redgreen, you should consider that your view and opinions of me probably have little bearing on reality, as you only communicate with me through a message board.
There is no need for you to look outside of yourself for pride, for as humans, we all have enough of our own to deal with Im sure.
Namaste
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6649386 - 03/08/07 02:49 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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That is a very good author. I'm looking for where you wrote your quote from, so i can see the whole teaching to find in what context these 'signs' take place. Do you possibly have the link to the specific section you got the quote from?
Yes follow the guide, as a qualified nun knows a lot better than i do I'm sure.
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Alnico
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6649434 - 03/08/07 03:04 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sindbad,
If you go down to a link on the front page named "The Practice", and scroll down about 3/4 of the page, you'll find it.
BTW, the author is actually a he, not a she. 
Edited by Alnico (03/08/07 03:07 PM)
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6649442 - 03/08/07 03:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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It sound like you are progressing fine. Some experiences arising can be good 'signs' along the way, but in the Tibetan traditions, these are all called 'nyams' meaning experiences that arise with correct practice, and are not to be attached to.
Personally, i do not see the use in making any of these experiences the object of meditation, but if this is what a fully ordained Monk is saying, then i certainly think you should follow his advice on the matter, as he is surely far more wise and experienced than I.
Signs can point to how one is progressing in practice, and if specific signs mean that stability has been attained in shamatha and you are ready to start insight meditation, be aware of this and make the leap, as i think the book may be suggesting.
I wish you good fortune on your path, and next time, maybe you would like to post your questions about the technical aspects of specific practices at Esangha, as it might be more appropriate to avoid confusions.
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism.
Namaste
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Edited by Sinbad (03/08/07 04:26 PM)
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Alnico
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6649465 - 03/08/07 03:12 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for the link. I'll check it out right after I meditate. I've been so busy studying meditation today, since I woke up, that I haven't even got around to meditating yet. 
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redgreenvines
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6649571 - 03/08/07 03:46 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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alnico
this comment is for sinbad so just go off meditating and stop reading about it altogether or you will get more like sinbad and less like me.
sinbad
you don't have to be christian to be tangled up with spiritual materialism; the whole modern american culture pervades everything.
I have seen much progress in your banter but stagnation lately is welling up. am looking for a bit more plasticity. the ability to see dharma where you expect some other activity. yours is too exclusive.
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6649636 - 03/08/07 04:05 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Well I'm actually not American either, nether do i appreciate much of what American culture represents, but that is arbitrary. If you can look up some Trungpa, you might get a better feel for what spiritual materialism actually is.
Whatever it is you think you see or are seeking, do yourself a favor and cease with groundless assumptions. You will never discover the person behind these posts.
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6649670 - 03/08/07 04:13 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
alnico
this comment is for sinbad so just go off meditating and stop reading about it altogether or you will get more like sinbad and less like me.
Judging from the picture in your avatar, with all those crazy eyes, perhaps it would be better if alnico started reading about this and became more like me than you.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6649687 - 03/08/07 04:16 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Alnico said:
BTW, the author is actually a he, not a she.
She is a he, haha! So much for groundless assumptions. It really has been a pretty crazy and comical day today
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DarkMoon21
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6651223 - 03/08/07 11:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Fuck Alnico, I'm liking you more and more as I read more of your posts, we're both going through the same experiences, yet your always one step ahead of me, I was going to get a book on Vipassana meditation this very weekend. 
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-=-Never Sigh For Better World
It's Already Composed
Played And Told-=-
Science gives a consistent how with an incomplete why.
Faith gives an inconsistent how with a complete why.
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Alnico
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: DarkMoon21]
#6653121 - 03/09/07 02:20 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Hahaha, that's why I love this board. I see a lot of people that share my experience and also people that have already been down a similar path.
Best of luck to you on your path. Remember it's not a race.
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DarkMoon21
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6653649 - 03/09/07 05:35 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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We'll see about that when I'm the one winning.;)
Just kidding, each and every one of us takes their own path to enlightenment, it takes some years and others decades. 
Edited by DarkMoon21 (03/10/07 09:38 AM)
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: DarkMoon21]
#6653916 - 03/09/07 07:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Months?
Show me the way to Amerello!
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redgreenvines
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6654109 - 03/09/07 08:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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i think it's all chocolate
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6654163 - 03/09/07 08:30 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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How quaint.
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DarkMoon21
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6655288 - 03/10/07 09:39 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Alright, alright, I edited that, i was getting a little bit too ambitious with the months thing....Anyone who gets there that fast is lying or a scientologist.
--------------------
-=-Never Sigh For Better World
It's Already Composed
Played And Told-=-
Science gives a consistent how with an incomplete why.
Faith gives an inconsistent how with a complete why.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: DarkMoon21]
#6655299 - 03/10/07 09:45 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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there are fast and slow ways.
some are sudden
occasionally there is satori after the wind blows in the leaves.
also
Nestle's
Quick
Cho -co - late.
we can continue without need to be right(ed)
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6655332 - 03/10/07 09:57 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nestle is not a good option, slave labor in many countries. Satori is not complete awakening, only a passing glimpse. It takes a long time to wipe away those ignorance obscuration's for good, but little peeks behind the curtain occur from time to time. We just keep going, accumulating positive actions, meditating and taking refuge in a genuine path, enjoying the journey, rather than focusing on the goal.
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shizznit
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
#6655337 - 03/10/07 09:59 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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isn't meditation all about simply quieting the mind? In other words simply being still in the darkness of your mind
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: shizznit]
#6655366 - 03/10/07 10:16 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Meditation initially is about calming the mind. Calming the mind is the first training, or practice called shamatha that allows us to have more stability, calm and clarity, free from habitual distraction.
Then comes the second training called insight or vipassana meditation which gives us the methods to allow us to penetrate deeply and clearly into the minds nature, removing the darkness of ignorance completely, hence 'enlightenment'.
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Edited by Sinbad (03/10/07 10:22 AM)
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redgreenvines
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a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: Sinbad]
#6655603 - 03/10/07 12:10 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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I keep questioning "if you are sure", sinbad, because you still like things in absolute terms:
a little satori daily seems suitable to me
while on the middle way
in lieu of
putting it off and attending a more consumerist/christian style ideal of some absolute enlightenment.
you don't even need to find out which way it's gonna be, as you already are.
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Sinbad
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: redgreenvines]
#6655717 - 03/10/07 01:15 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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What would be the point of walking a path, that has no fruit? Satori experiences are great, and serve as inspiration to continue on the path, not an end to themselves. The Buddha would not have taught that there is an end to suffering if
there was no result. Even zen teachers do not consider satori experiences to be the main point. Suzuki roshi did'nt even like to talk about satori, for this reason.
Practice, no matter what is key, through this we can come to fruition in our present experience. Enlightenment is when our afflictive obscurations have been completely purified, and we have continuity with the recognition of our natural, original state. Practicing the fruit as path, as you are suggesting is a taller order than you seem to recognize. Practicing the path as fruit (meaning having no goal craving in mind and just practicing no matter what) is a much better approach.
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redgreenvines
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: Sinbad]
#6655776 - 03/10/07 01:57 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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path and fruit are not separated
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Sinbad
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: redgreenvines]
#6655786 - 03/10/07 02:02 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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For someone who is already realized, this may be so. but for us struggling sentient beings, that is just not how it is. Are you saying that you are enlightened red?
As for practicing the fruit as the path, this is a tall order baby, and there are'nt many people that can make that kind of sudden leap. HHDL says that this is the main problem with sudden schools. They have insight, but the merit needed to sustain those insights is lacking, so it becomes a very difficult path to practice without falling prey to sidetracks and dead-ends.
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Edited by Sinbad (03/14/07 12:06 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: Sinbad]
#6655792 - 03/10/07 02:06 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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no more than you
but we are in the middle of fruit while making more
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Sinbad
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: redgreenvines]
#6667752 - 03/14/07 06:12 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
path and fruit are not separated
Path and fruit are not the same. The path is always something conditioned, while the fruit is unconditioned.
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redgreenvines
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: Sinbad]
#6668165 - 03/14/07 09:59 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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nothing is unconditioned.
dreaming about the unconditioned is the xtian consumer, longing for what he already has and thinking it is other.
the conditioned universe is what we are in, of, making, seeing, meditating.
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Sinbad
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: redgreenvines]
#6668336 - 03/14/07 10:55 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
nothing is unconditioned.
dreaming about the unconditioned is the xtian consumer, longing for what he already has and thinking it is other.
the conditioned universe is what we are in, of, making, seeing, meditating.
The unconditioned is our real nature, a state that is free from conditioned obscurations. It is unconditioned because it is the basis of our unmanifest potential, that does not exist anywhere inside or outside of beings conditioned aggregates.
I do not consider it to be some fanciful paradise dream of xtians or anyone else. In fact, i really have no idea why you keep injecting this xtian theme into your responses to my posts. Its absurd.
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redgreenvines
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: Sinbad]
#6668358 - 03/14/07 11:01 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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no more absurd than the expectation of a "real nature" (absolute-belief is absolutely-fundamental in this type of idea it is not intrinsic to the middle way)
do you understand intrinsic?
(i mean without using the ideas "Real" or "True" or anything else that depends upon dualistic thinking)
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Sinbad
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: redgreenvines]
#6668373 - 03/14/07 11:06 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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You seem to be getting hung up on words again. The reason i say 'real nature' is that if i say human nature, people automatically think in the negative, as per our western conditioning towards the nature of the human being.
The English language is 'inherently' dualistic, and we cant get away from this fact. even saying 'intrinsic' seems to imply that there is 'something' that is 'intrinsically' identifiable.
This is just the problem and complication of trying to use words and concepts to describe the indescribable. The trick is not to mistake the finger pointing for the sky itself grasshopper!
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Sinbad
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: redgreenvines]
#6668591 - 03/14/07 12:09 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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Also a little side note. It is said that the only difference between a realized being and a sentient being is that the sentient being has afflictive and non-afflictive obscurations, while a realized being does not.
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Edited by Sinbad (03/14/07 12:17 PM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: Sinbad]
#6668793 - 03/14/07 12:59 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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using the term "intrisic" helps, not very dualistic or extreme,
your last comment could condition your other comment,
i.e.
supporting no absolute cessation.
it is a natural and relative and continuous process.
you were right all along!
(eventually)
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Sinbad
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Re: a little satori goes a long (middle) way [Re: redgreenvines]
#6672000 - 03/15/07 09:38 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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When all afflictive and non-afflictive obscruations, through training, have been totally purified, then one can speak of absolute buddhahood. Why? Because there is no longer any possibility, through ignorance, for those obscurations to arise again, hence it is absolute in that sense. (not implying stasis, or some heavenly abode, the realization is unimpeded and hence absolute).
Cessation is when all 'afflictive' obscurations that cause suffering have been cut through, and the state of realization (Nirvana) is no longer impeded by any afflcitive obscuring factors. It is absolute in the sense that there is no longer any possibility for suffering conditions to arise again. (it is not a place or abode, since it is a state of 'realization').
If it was a natural and relative process, then we would all be free from suffering right now, and not bound by causes and conditions produced through afflictive obscuration. Since this is not so, it is the reason why we need to follow a path that will increase positive causes and conditions, purify negative ones, remove afflictive obscurations that are the root of suffering, and also remove non-afflictive obscurations (subtle ignorance), enabling us to realize ultimate bodhicitta for the benefit of one and all.
Of course, i can give some philosophical interpretations, but its real meaning is psychological; they're to do with states of mind. Realization is not philosophy.
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Edited by Sinbad (03/16/07 03:08 PM)
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redgreenvines
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the cat's in the cradle and a silver spoon. [Re: Sinbad]
#6672109 - 03/15/07 10:07 AM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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yes don't go too far on a limb or anything.
this is already a pretzle
you verge to the absolute and then allow that it is conditioned by the word "afflictive" then you go absolute again.
and all that without even starting to be philosophical!
so
let's just leave it at the meditation
stay focussed and not worry about "enlightenment" or who is "enlighened" or what it will be like - oh "we'll have a good time then, yes we'll have a good time then".
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Sinbad
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Re: the cat's in the cradle and a silver spoon. [Re: redgreenvines]
#6674068 - 03/15/07 06:50 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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It is the 'realization' that is impeded by obscurations, not the absolute. In Buddhism its improtant to know what is the path and fruit otherwise its like going on a journey without a map, you can waste time on many sidetracks and detours.
Even focusing on the goal, instead of relaxing and observing our present experience can be an obstacle, so we must be aware of that. As for worrying about enligthenment or 'who' get its. If we are having these question, we should take it as a sign of some ignorance obscurations with regard to the nature of self and phenomenon. Thus we need to learn, reflect and meditate.
Edit: Anyways, this is boring for most people on this forum, and it bores me to go into this. So lets leave this conversation for some other time.
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Edited by Sinbad (03/15/07 07:01 PM)
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Sinbad
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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
#6677197 - 03/16/07 03:07 PM (17 years, 1 month ago) |
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