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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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A question about meditation.
    #6647708 -

The following isa an excerpt from a guide to Vipassana meditation that I'm using.

"As you keep your mind focused on the rims of your nostrils, you will be able to notice the sign of the development of meditation. You will feel the pleasant sensation of sign. Different meditators feel this differently. It will be like a star, or a peg made of heartwood, or a long string, or a wreath of flowers, or a puff of smoke, or a cob-web, or a film of cloud, or a lotus flower, or the disc of the moon or the disc of the sun.

Earlier in your practice you had inhaling and exhaling as objects of meditation. Now you have the sign as the third object of meditation. When you focus your mind on this third object, your mind reaches a stage of concentration sufficient for your practice of insight meditation. This sign is strongly present at the rims of the nostrils. Master it and gain full control of it so that whenever you want, it should be available."


I don't exactly understand what a "sign" is. Can anybody clarify this for me?

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6647810 -

Is this Goenkaji's version of Vipassana by any chance?

Personally, i wouldn't follow that instruction. Breath is always the best object for meditation, and you don't need to shift your attention to any other object, especially not a temporary experience that arises in meditation. Breath meditation is called Shamatha, whilst Insight meditation is called Vipassana. This whole using 'signs' as an object business sounds like pure hogwash to me.

The only signs that one should reflect on with Vipassana meditation are impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non-self. The practice of Vipassana means to continually reflect on these three signs, making them your point of inquiry. This is a difficult practice, and one should try and be stable in Shamatha practice before attempting to do Vipassana ideally.To do this kind of meditation one also needs to be well versed in what the three marks of existence mean, and how to apply them properly. There is no use picking up a tool, if we don't know what we are to do with it.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed079.htm
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/notself2.html

Namaste :japsmile:


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Edited by Sinbad (03/08/07 05:15 AM)

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6647830 -

the sign or motif itself is meaningless.

the concentration has worked to the point where fading sensations thoughts or images are reduced to a key commonality or motif.
The motif is nothing more than a key commonality to a plurality of passing mind moments. Like a shadow that subsumes in the shadows of many ideas.

this motif emerges because the mind has slowed down and become more receptive, and concentration has caused fading thought/image/sensation to fade more slowly.

the thoughts will layer up somewhat and in the wake of their passing a motif or sign emerges.
that sign or motif is a result of the aggregate of layered wakes fading.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6647840 -

redgreenvines said:
the sign or motif itself is meaningless.

the concentration has worked to the point where fading sensations thoughts or images are reduced to a key commonality or motif.
The motif is nothing more than a key commonality to a plurality of passing mind moments. Like a shadow that subsumes in the shadows of many ideas.

this motif emerges because the mind has slowed down and become more receptive, and concentration has caused fading thought/image/sensation to fade more slowly.

the thoughts will layer up somewhat and in the wake of their passing a motif or sign emerges.
that sign or motif is a result of the aggregate of layered wakes fading.


Nice, but switching the meditation object to the motif seems pointless.


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6647881 -

as you and I both know
you wont know till you go
and what does it matter what we think?


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6647941 -

:what:

You and I both know through experience that shifting the meditation object from the breath to other objects during meditation leads to further distraction.

The mind is fickle, so its best to pick and object and stay with it, to reduce our distraction with temporary arising experiences.


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Edited by Sinbad (03/08/07 09:13 AM)

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6647971 -

when we wash dishes
that is our meditation
finding a sign/motif in things we do will help you soften a too stiff interpretation of dharma.
relax sailor, this is not a threat either


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6648026 -

In every situation (except death) the breath can be used as object . Name one other object that has this quality?

Signs are indication of progress and pointers on the way, but making them into objects of meditation is the path of distraction. Experiences themselves are perfectly innocent, no threat. Being distracted by experiences through shifting the object takes us away from awareness and presence in the moment.

The sailor is relaxed, but not blahsay about the topic. Blahsay would be incorrect dharma. :japsmile:


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blow me down [Re: Sinbad]
    #6648104 -

i will gladly turn all my comments into to melted chocolate and fall with them through the cracks of the floor before challenging the mettle of your breath strength.


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Re: blow me down [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6648112 -

You would make delicious fondue. :rofl:

EDIT: Just to be clear, breath isn't the only object one can use, but it is the most flexible and calming IME. :japsmile:


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Edited by Sinbad (03/08/07 09:07 AM)

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Re: blow me down [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6648400 -

I don't know why but it seems like maybe you get the wrong idea and think that everything should be flowing and effortless from the beginning red. Maybe it was my fault for posting that ngingma link that you rated me for. :smirk:

It seems like a paradox, but first its essential IME to train to be more present and aware in the moment before we can really fully relax into a state of effortless samadhi. If we don't have that foundation in single pointed presence, then our attempts at being in effortless samadhi will most likely sink into dullness and distraction very easily.

Our minds are distracted most of the time, for this reason training the mind in presence and awareness with meditation is something essential and should never be thought of as secondary or unimportant.

That being said i would love to watch you melt into effortlessness. It would make me very happy. :grin:


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6648451 -

I would like to offer a different perspective.

First, I think it's important to distinguish between an aid and a crutch. An aid is something that helps you to progress, and is then effortlessly released when no longer needed. It becomes a crutch when you stubbornly refuse to let go. (Except for actual medical crutches, which begin as aids but often become crutches! :smile:)

There is a story about two students. One is asked to lift a huge boulder with his forearms. The other is asked to first lift a tiny pebble, then a rock, then a boulder with handles affixed, etc. Both attain the same goal; the paths are very different (not better, but different).

Another story: a man must learn martial arts to defend against a great injustice. He begs a master to accept him. Finally, the master agrees and takes him to a field with a newly born calf. "Lift this calf once," the master says. Confused, the student easily does so. The next day, the master again has him lift the calf once. Finally, after a year the student finally loses patience and blurts out, "when can I learn martial arts?!?" "Silly student," replies the master, "you are strong enough to lift a cow!!"

(I'm not trying to patronize, I just think these are neat stories :smile:)

Taoism teaches that the body is the vessel that carries you to Enlightenment. It must be abandoned, but not before reaching the goal. Similarly, most esoteric traditions teach that focusing on the chakras and so forth can aid spiritual progress. Now, in an "ultimate" sense, these chakras are illusory. Yes, but so is the food you eat and the clothes you wear. I would say that, until you have mastered Conditioned Reality and are ready for Buddhahood, this is a fairly academic concern!

Regarding the signs themselves, I don't have that much to say. They are esoteric perceptions that you will feel are charged with spiritual energy. You will recognize them if/when they appear. Do not pursue them, or fetishize them, but do recognize their power and gratefully receive their positive aid. Balance awareness of their ultimate dependence with their practical usefulness.

Find the Middle Way. You can train with pebbles and rocks in the morning, and the boulder at night.

Peace and love!

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: FollowTheMusic]
    #6648471 -

FollowTheMusic said:
I would like to offer a different perspective.

First, I think it's important to distinguish between an aid and a crutch. An aid is something that helps you to progress, and is then effortlessly released when no longer needed. It becomes a crutch when you stubbornly refuse to let go. (Except for actual medical crutches, which begin as aids but often become crutches! :smile:)

Regarding the signs themselves, I don't have that much to say. They are esoteric perceptions that you will feel are charged with spiritual energy. You will recognize them if/when they appear. Do not pursue them, or fetishize them, but do recognize their power and gratefully receive their positive aid. Balance awareness of their ultimate dependence with their practical usefulness.

Find the Middle Way. You can train with pebbles and rocks in the morning, and the boulder at night.

Peace and love!


:thumbup:


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6648479 -

You don't like my stories? I like stories! :smile:

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: FollowTheMusic]
    #6648498 -

Hehe, I liked them, just didn't think they were amazingly relevant. the rest was spot on though. :thumbup:


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: FollowTheMusic]
    #6648506 -

i like your stories lots
illusoriness is when words and thought mean more than what is spoken of.
BTW
food is not illusory excepting that ideas about food can be either illusory,
or they can dance around nicely adding nothing to the food-ness of food.

melted chocolate on the other hand combines food ideas with other delicious stretchy extensions


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6648531 -

Illusoriness is just the nature of reality. Even melted chocolate is included under that blanket, along with all the other 'extensions' that are something extra.


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6648588 -

how are you sure of that?
are you enlightened?
this term gets a lot of people into deep gooey chocolate.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6648721 -

You don't need to be enlightened to be sure about illusion. Not understanding the term gets people into deep gooey chocolate, not the term itself.


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6648768 -

yes sticky is the
attitude about the terms
i.e. what you use them for
see,
there need be no illusion about this lunch,
unless I carry a f*cked up attitude about it.
the food is not illusory, just how my mind uses reflections of it.
illusoriness is always a quality of mental processes - nama-rupa, not a quality of rupa.
nothing needs to be added to rupa as it is.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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