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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6648831 -

Indeed, if you have a real understanding of the three marks of existence, then you will not be under the influence of an illusory, f*cked up attitude. :wink:


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6648944 -

in buddhism there is no
"Good to Go" declaration
nor is there any
"damned for all time"
one minute you may "understand" and the next minute you are all alone in the dark.
keeping to the middle way in face of such fluctuation is a real challenge. we ought to expect it.

christian baggage (attitude) has been dragged into the buddhist fields.

eg. "the enlightened one should be good to go, all fixed up, no chance of hell, gone to heaven..."
really lots of this carry over is found to be at root of the "illusoryiness" the mind wraps around things.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6648977 -

Thanks for the posts!

It seems to me that I don't have enough focus to worry about these signs right now. I have been attempting to meditating, focusing on my breath as my guide instructs me to, for almost a month now. I have made progress in improving my concentration but it is relatively poor still. I have noticed a feeling of growing and shrinking at times... does this mean I have achieved some shallow degree of meditation?

This is the guide I am using.
http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english.php
I will probably stick to this guide mainly, but I will definately have a look at those other guides you linked me to, Sinbad.

Edited by Alnico (03/08/07 01:02 PM)

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6649085 -

Alnico said:
The following isa an excerpt from a guide to Vipassana meditation that I'm using.

"As you keep your mind focused on the rims of your nostrils, you will be able to notice the sign of the development of meditation. You will feel the pleasant sensation of sign. Different meditators feel this differently. It will be like a star, or a peg made of heartwood, or a long string, or a wreath of flowers, or a puff of smoke, or a cob-web, or a film of cloud, or a lotus flower, or the disc of the moon or the disc of the sun.


In vipassana one may focus on anything one wants. The 'pointer' to the object of focusing may called 'sign'. I heard about it as 'Kasina'. It is simply the 'frame' around that, what to focus at. The setting of mind, which is/was achieved (before) through samatha, what is described here:

Quote:
Earlier in your practice you had inhaling and exhaling as objects of meditation. Now you have the sign as the third object of meditation. When you focus your mind on this third object, your mind reaches a stage of concentration sufficient for your practice of insight meditation. This sign is strongly present at the rims of the nostrils. Master it and gain full control of it so that whenever you want, it should be available."


Meaning, you can 'remember' this setting of mind, to use it on different subjects/objects to focus on.

I think, it is that simple.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (03/08/07 01:24 PM)

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6649174 -

redgreenvines,

"in buddhism there is no
"Good to Go" declaration
nor is there any
"damned for all time"
one minute you may "understand" and the next minute you are all alone in the dark.
keeping to the middle way in face of such fluctuation is a real challenge. we ought to expect it."

I'm afraid I don't understand that. If one was enlightened, would they not be freed from these fluctuations. Maybe it would help if you explained what these fluctuations are in a different way.

Edited by Alnico (03/08/07 01:43 PM)

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6649188 -

BlueCoyote,
Yes, it's making more sense now. I still don't know exactly what a sign is, as I haven't seen a "sign" yet for myself, but I think that I should work on samatha meditation, and develope my concentration further.

Edited by Alnico (03/08/07 01:44 PM)

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6649235 -

:thumbup:
Exactly ! Then it should explain itself and that's why it's different for each meditator and perhaps it also can change inside one meditator in regards to the thing focused on.
I couldn't recall mine exactly, because it somehow has automatized inside of me, changing constantly [at least at the moment] :lol:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (03/08/07 02:04 PM)

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6649266 -

Alnico said:
redgreenvines,

"in buddhism there is no
"Good to Go" declaration
nor is there any
"damned for all time"
one minute you may "understand" and the next minute you are all alone in the dark.
keeping to the middle way in face of such fluctuation is a real challenge. we ought to expect it."

I'm afraid I don't understand that. If one was enlightened, would they not be freed from these fluctuations. Maybe it would help if you explained what these fluctuations are in a different way.


OK, well,
I am often bothering sinbad about his christian style buddhism and the tendency of most people, in fact, to think in absolute terms about this stuff.

the banter between sinbad and me is usually me trying to erode his proud certainty of things. even buddhist doctrine or dogma. (and he really does know a lot - what good that knowledge does is another matter!)

meantime,
you are doing a smart thing to begin vipassana and should definitely pursue the line you have started.

my comments to you are that you may or may not notice phenomena that are derived from concentration (you called them signs, and I refer to them as motif when talking about meditation, dreams and psychedelics).

the relative success of your meditation is not dependent upon these signs.

I would say you can tell you are doing well when you begin to recover from distraction without reprimanding yourself. this is the most important training, recovery of a middle way without the baggage of remorse or self recrimination.

usually belittling oneself is the most troublesome element as a meditation student.

then again some people think they already know everything.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6649312 -

I would say you can tell you are doing well when you begin to recover from distraction without reprimanding yourself. this is the most important training, recovery of a middle way without the baggage of remorse or self recrimination.

I agree and might also add that limiting expectations and just doing is also a good thing.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6649348 -

Its funny how you think i have a xtian attitude, yet have no xtian background whatsoever. :lol:

Contrary to a wishy washy approach to things, i believe that dharmic methods can and should be explained as precisely as possible. Why? Because it is very easy, especially with Buddhist thought and practice, to get the wrong idea and venture on an erroneous path.

I do not know everything, and am learning new things everyday. In fact every moment is a new and fresh experience, with something valuable to offer.

But there are certain things, especially with meditation, that cannot and should not be ignored or approached in a less than clear way. This is why i take umbridge with the wishy washy approach, not out of pride, but out of concern for those who really wish to meditate properly and not get caught in sidetracks like i have done in the past.

Whatever you like to think about these banters redgreen, you should consider that your view and opinions of me probably have little bearing on reality, as you only communicate with me through a message board.

There is no need for you to look outside of yourself for pride, for as humans, we all have enough of our own to deal with Im sure.

Namaste :japsmile:


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6649386 -

That is a very good author. I'm looking for where you wrote your quote from, so i can see the whole teaching to find in what context these 'signs' take place. Do you possibly have the link to the specific section you got the quote from?

Yes follow the guide, as a qualified nun knows a lot better than i do I'm sure. :grin:


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6649434 -

Sindbad,

If you go down to a link on the front page named "The Practice", and scroll down about 3/4 of the page, you'll find it.

BTW, the author is actually a he, not a she.  :smile2:

Edited by Alnico (03/08/07 03:07 PM)

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6649442 -

It sound like you are progressing fine. Some experiences arising can be good 'signs' along the way, but in the Tibetan traditions, these are all called 'nyams' meaning experiences that arise with correct practice, and are not to be attached to.

Personally, i do not see the use in making any of these experiences the object of meditation, but if this is what a fully ordained Monk is saying, then i certainly think you should follow his advice on the matter, as he is surely far more wise and experienced than I.

Signs can point to how one is progressing in practice, and if specific signs mean that stability has been attained in shamatha and you are ready to start insight meditation, be aware of this and make the leap, as i think the book may be suggesting.

I wish you good fortune on your path, and next time, maybe you would like to post your questions about the technical aspects of specific practices at Esangha, as it might be more appropriate to avoid confusions.

http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism.

Namaste :japsmile:


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Edited by Sinbad (03/08/07 04:26 PM)

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6649465 -

Thanks for the link. I'll check it out right after I meditate. I've been so busy studying meditation today, since I woke up, that I haven't even got around to meditating yet. :crazy:

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6649571 -

alnico
this comment is for sinbad so just go off meditating and stop reading about it altogether or you will get more like sinbad and less like me.

sinbad
you don't have to be christian to be tangled up with spiritual materialism; the whole modern american culture pervades everything.
I have seen much progress in your banter but stagnation lately is welling up. am looking for a bit more plasticity. the ability to see dharma where you expect some other activity. yours is too exclusive.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6649636 -

Well I'm actually not American either, nether do i appreciate much of what American culture represents, but that is arbitrary. If you can look up some Trungpa, you might get a better feel for what spiritual materialism actually is.

Whatever it is you think you see or are seeking, do yourself a favor and cease with groundless assumptions. You will never discover the person behind these posts.


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: redgreenvines]
    #6649670 -

redgreenvines said:
alnico
this comment is for sinbad so just go off meditating and stop reading about it altogether or you will get more like sinbad and less like me.



Judging from the picture in your avatar, with all those crazy eyes, perhaps it would be better if alnico started reading about this and became more like me than you. :lol:


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Alnico]
    #6649687 -

Alnico said:
BTW, the author is actually a he, not a she.  :smile2: 


She is a he, haha! So much for groundless assumptions. It really has been a pretty crazy and comical day today :rofl:


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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: Sinbad]
    #6651223 -

Fuck Alnico, I'm liking you more and more as I read more of your posts, we're both going through the same experiences, yet your always one step ahead of me, I was going to get a book on Vipassana meditation this very weekend. :laugh:


--------------------
-=-Never Sigh For Better World
It's Already Composed
Played And Told-=-

Science gives a consistent how with an incomplete why.
Faith gives an inconsistent how with a complete why.

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Re: A question about meditation. [Re: DarkMoon21]
    #6653121 -

Hahaha, that's why I love this board. I see a lot of people that share my experience and also people that have already been down a similar path.

Best of luck to you on your path. Remember it's not a race. :wink:

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