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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7269691 -

Isn't being high about the eradification of suffering? Isn't Buddhism about the sustainment of peace and tranquility, and all things associated with non-suffering?


I suppose I do want to be high.


I dissolved and the reason I came back was because my attention was not strong enough to hold it. It happened while stoned 2 years ago, completely of its own volition, as a result of me simply paying attention.

It fixed and mended an otherwise still faulty energetic circuit that I am still dealing with right now, for whatever reason an inability to be completely still, swaying and focus point jumping around.


put another way, i want to transcend and experience unity, i want to be free, and i want to go home.

Markos I have gathered you still take LSD, if so, why? Albeit LSD is not complete sustainment of any one "thing" rather simply honed awareness which gives rise and scrutiny to various elements, but the same is said of being stoned and etc. Or being adept at meditation.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (08/07/07 10:01 AM)

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: leery11]
    #7269858 -

no
being high (on psychedelic) is about having a glimpse of something out of bounds
getting inspired by what is ordinary

with this kind of inspiration,
you can work on the stuff that improves lives

that work involves effort outside of the visionary experience


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: leery11]
    #7269916 -

Yes, to "be high" is the way to be, not to 'get high.' I also want to "go home" but the 'gate' is narrow, it is NOT death that gets one there. The 'narrow gate,' as Tolle points out is The Now. To die in The Now, is like the Zen Master who, when dying, was asked by his students what it was like, and his reply: "A squirrel is running on the roof," because, at that moment, out of all the objects of awareness available, he selected that one. After all, one can only speak of one thing at a time. The question about the moment of death was no more or less important than any other moment. When one becomes overwhelmed by the inner Hyperpranic Experience of death, it is not possible to speak and describe. But again, it is impossible to describe the omnipresence of any moment, except one thing at a time.

These states which are granted some of us are gifts and they are removed quickly. It has nothing to do with our ability to hold fast to them. They issue from a Higher Consciousness, the theist speaks of God's grace. They neither originate with nor are they possessions of one's ego.

I have taken LSD in the not-to-distant past. It was offered by another Shroomerite and I did not decline. The time before that was New Years Eve 99-00, when I wanted my Lady to experience a couple of gel tabs, she, never having had an acid experience. It was some years prior to that. For me, acid is useful in conjunction with higher Yoga practices aimed at Sahasrara states. Unfortunately, one cannot force such a state since it issues from a Source Other than my ego. I do not need LSD in order to Be Here Now, and the excessive energy is a waste if one is not using it for inner work - work that requires days of purification: fasting from certain foods, obnoxious people, TV/music/noise and excessive thinking. Spontaneous dropping of acid, which was just fun exploration in my youth, is usually just a fireworks show for me: silver kaleidoscopes on the clouds, paisley dot patterns on the cement, undulating boundaries, etc. It is not a good social substance at high doses because my Throat Center tightens, making speaking difficult as energy moves into the Head Center. I want to form my body into Yoga asanas, use pranayama to go further into dharana, dhyana, samadhi. For me to seek out acid is for me to identify with memories of past experiences which cannot be repeated.

I know a few people who take high doses of acid only to contain the experience with their (expanding) egos! They refuse to surrender to the experience, so they never have 'The Experience,' only the energy and peripheral neural fireworks. No ego-death with resulting humility and compassion, no Experience of Primordial Unity (Clear Light). I suspect that there is abject terror at going within, perhaps fetalizing, and letting go. To lose sight of one's body and one's mind is tantamount to fear of death, which they will never transcend and accept unless they allow such inner work. I would take acid with such people in order to guide them within, and support them in their fear, but I do not seek it out for myself. I already Know these states.

I might take acid with the assumption that others want to go within, only to discover that they are not ready or have no such intention, and then the trip becomes a rather banal drug-taking event. This too has happened, as has the opposite: simple experimentation resulting in someone experiencing ego-death of sorts, and requiring some support. That's one of the ways in which one voluntarily enters into the darkness of others' unconsciousness as a guiding Light, a Psychopomp. I haven't visited strip clubs much in my life, but I did take a childhood friend when he was 31 and still a virgin. That is a similar case of being a guide and entering  a darkness voluntarily for another's sake. I always tend to shut down in such places, so it really wasn't such a titillation by tit. :grin: (I see these places as temples of Aphrodite these days, but worship The Goddess through my Lady). I only mention this to put acid-taking into a wider context. It is doubtful that I will learn more, but I could guide others who have not yet been Initiated into the heights and depths of 'The Experience' - IF they're willing to go.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7270134 -

but you can't always be high
much as you might like,
the consciousness that is loaded with moment frames and contexts stacked on upon another (being high)
is not a good one for all tasks.

being high is a treat, something that can be blended into life, and something for life to be blended with.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7270688 -

Did you ever read The Power of Now? Living in Being is Being High. Living in time is being identified with the past or the future and not being aware of the Eternal Present. Life can be lived this way in varying intensities, but being caught up in thought is an obvious unconsciousness.

There is this obnoxious lawyer I was trapped into having dinner with the other night. He is still trying to impress his new fiancee, and he took her to Europe. After dinner, he brought up pictures of the trip (with the Russian fiancee in every shot!) on the computer for the rest of us to see. He continued to live in that past, and then began suggesting to the other couple that they take another trip to Europe in the future. Meanwhile, I patiently sat on the floor, playing with a puppy and passively taking in the pics, simply observing how this guy is a perfect example of the 'dis-ease' of time-bound materialistic people. It was all about his ego in the sense that he was showing pictorial representations of (literally) his trip! And, his trip was over, gone, dead, water-under-the-bridge. Meanwhile there we all were, six of us, focusing on this guy's past experience. He actually thanked us for sitting through a slide show. My Lady and I did not fawn over this, in fact we were unimpressed. What impressed us was the trip of another lawyer we know - a female friend - who trekked through Nepal, Bhutan, the Tibetan border and described to us the prayer flags, people and sights. That rugged trip caught our mental interest :thumbup:, but the elicitation of envy was not her intention, while it was was unmistakably his :rolleyes:!

When the fiancee asked me where my Lady and I go for fun (mind you, they also attend fetish parties with the other couple every month), I laughed and said don't even go there. That only intrigued her, so I gave a terse little definition of Being in the Eternal Present, outside of time, and that 'Being There' is the important thing no matter where we find ourselves on the planet. I mentioned the occasional Entheogenic Excursion, and no sooner had I said the words did I regret them, because all this poor soul heard out of my brief eloquent description was "Oh, you take drugs." Now, she drinks like a fish, gobbles X at fetish parties, and gets very nasty on cocaine, so she is not in any position to express condescension. If anything, her drug choices only increase the illusion, not thin its veils. Entheogens are like booster shots, transformers on the electric line of life which gives an occasional boost to one's enthusiasm. 

[en·thu·si·asm
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek enthousiasmos, from enthousiazein to be inspired, irregular from entheos inspired, from en- + theos god].:)

Of the three couples, the one couple in common to the lawyer-couple and us were celebrating his 50th birthday. He has this materialistic lawyer on the one hand, and the MarkostheGnostic-couple on the other hand. It was almost like he brought us together to compare and contrast the qualities of our respective lives. The wife of the new 50 year old has had a copy of The Power of Now for months, but has only gotten to chapter 3. If she read chapter 2 on "the pain body," and understood it at all, she would've understood why we don't want to attend a fetish party where pathetic masochistic men beg to be humiliated and women are hung with large fish hooks in their flesh. Whatever purpose our presence has in the lives of these other people, I surely do not know unless we are there to provide some kind of example of alternative values, of a disavowal of a life lived for materiality, status, and ego-enhancement :shrug:.

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7270932 -

Markos thank you for sharing
i have some sort of energetic imbalance
my head cannot sit still..... and cannabis seems to bypass this
it makes me want to go buy some and use it for meditation, so
i can have the really deep feelings.
i've been meditating today about 3 hours and i get vague impressions of stillness of mind and body though, juxtaposed with all these violent kinks in my system that i just do not understand why they are there.\

meanwhile all sorts of scrambled psychedelic patterns exist but do not take me inward.

i wager it is something tai chi and yoga will eventually fully fix, and that it has something to do with my third eye or crown centers., the ears and shoulders play a really large role in this
any thoughts?

// the one time i took acid i tried intently to have ego-death for a few hours just lying in bed with om mani padme hum


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

Edited by leery11 (08/07/07 04:19 PM)

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7270936 -

yes I read it and was quite impressed by the thrust of "the power of now" and by the way of introducing important ideas to people who did not have such a context before.

I have some good friends that also love to compare/contrast themselves with others of different interests whereever we go.

Here the enjoyment in articulating the essential path differences with obvious swine seems like a bit of a fetish itself. satisfaction is a sure thing.

but hey

fetish is the painbody - no, just kidding,
there is no fucking pain body
the body is body
pain is something you can feel
so is pleasure
so is indifference - these three feelings are resultant of karma
and karma is instant, the flipside of attitude.
just depends on how you look at it.
(BTW you can phone the restaurant and request not to be seated near obnoxious lawyers next time)


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: leery11]
    #7270943 -

you best learn meditation without the clouds of weed or 'cids
it will be much better later.

leave the psychedelic teddy bear at home


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7270953 -

meaning i should not try to use them for meditation

or meaning that i should not use them at all?

There is a lot of benefit that I could see from having the occasional excursion. no ? Both of you have just spoken of this benefit.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: leery11]
    #7271038 -

when you have a few seasons under your belt
you can mix and know what the mixture is
otherwise
how you gonna learn the subtle stuff?

anyway don't try to answer this intellectually
it is a fact - uttered from experience - not "logic";
pheh - that word "logic" is practically criminal.

while learning meditation just do not use MJ.
you will see dramatic effects from just tobacco.

so No MJ or cids for the learning session
that can be one day or one week or one year or forever.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7271107 -

trusting my self as authority
but not its impulses and only following those
that come from that mind in the first place
will eliminate almost all actions


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: leery11]
    #7271188 -

but who is predicting?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7271431 -

The pain body is Tolle's construct for the subconscious apparently. Since the subconscious is real (I access it in others through hypnosis, pluck things out, insert suggestions they request), the pain body is real. Not talking about physical 'sensations,' talking about emotions. Emotions are like Tolle suggests, the body's reactions to thoughts. The subconscious records emotional traumas, but the physical body can record physical trauma, releasing it years later with physical manipulation like Rolfing. So, the pain body IS really mind-body. The two are not separate, except in a corpse.

No avoiding that obnoxious lawyer - he was part of the dinner party. I certainly would not seek out his company, or his professional services.

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: leery11]
    #7271462 -

I don't use cannabis. It muddies clarity, interferes with memory, induces apathy and monopolizes receptor sites so that other more subtle substances of benefit (like Passion Flower) cannot be experienced.

The difference between the stillness of meditation and the stillness of a cannabis stone is the difference between a deep crystal clear pond, and a pond that is still because it's mud-choked. That's my experience, not my opinion. I used cannabis, primarily hashish from New Years Eve 1969 to the early 80s. I'll 'taste' something very very infrequently if it's offered, essentially so I'll know what I'm talking about (other substance abuse specialists don't take this illicit field approach). I haven't sought it out for over 20 years. Smoking is not healthy on top of it all, and I've already had a bout with cancer. Respiratory and mental health (and memory) - clarity of awareness - is the MOST important thing. Dealing with anxiety or whatever is best handled by tweaking one's neurotransmitters with smart drugs, amino acids and antioxidants, especially at my age!


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7271597 -

MarkostheGnostic said:
...
The subconscious records emotional traumas, but the physical body can record physical trauma, releasing it years later with physical manipulation like Rolfing. So, the pain body IS really mind-body. The two are not separate, except in a corpse.
...


memory records all kinds of things including the traumatic.
he is talking about the habit of holding the body as armour against more pain.
psychology is slowly coming to its senses about the term subconscious.
the subconscious amounts to no more than the common term for collection of all memories and habits.
unfortunately many terms are viewed and addressed erroneously, and come to include phantasm style constructs.

Really the person as a whole has memories and habits which are not separated from the consciousness into a sub and other type of consciousness.

all potential associations and all learned habits are always ready to be accessed by cues that rise over background noise in the set and setting.

Tolle's pain body may also be a good construct (as far as mysticisms go) but only so far: a simpler and more honest observation of who we are and what we are is better, and it makes for more enduring insight.

by the way what makes you think that there must be a subconscious for you to hypnotise somebody?


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7272552 -

It's a matter of a useful model. I treat the psyche as an onion-like structure, except that all of the spatially separate layers, while separate, are not material so they 'radiate' their distinctive characteristics into each other. Nevertheless, I treat the subconscious as a shadowy area between waking and unconsciousness. It partakes of both. I have experimented for many years as well as made my own observations of people while under various states of mind.

Everything from the shifty microexpressions of certain 'shady' people to flashing a sign that says 'yawn' in front of a classroom of kids to subliminal advertising, all access this shadowy twilight zone. This is a psychic place, like the deep unconscious, that is untouched by time. Traumas live there like they just happened, while long forgotten, yet they continue to create psychological and physical symptoms. I have had successes in certain areas, others do well treating other problems. There are many different models, each is only as good as its practical results. Theories come and go, as do models. I have seen a lot of interesting and surprising things, but more important than my own understanding of mental phenomenon is whether I can relieve suffering through this art. I use trance induction which suppresses much conscious 'noise' allowing subconscious processes to make a 'figure-ground shift.' Then, I work with that mentality which processes things quite differently than consciousness with its critical thinking, inner monologue, will power and conscious memories. It is not about what I 'believe,' the subconscious belongs to a model that I apply in order to relieve or eliminate suffering.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7273218 -

that is very clear thinking.
trauma memory often adds a persistent clenching in the body which is specific to the body's positions at the time of the event.
any way of accessing this memory and openning it to the rest of the person can become a healing circle.
letting go of these body lock-up burdens is critical, and healthful.
any system that works is good.
even mumbo jumbo.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: redgreenvines]
    #7273582 -

LOOK! I say loo-o-o-o-k into my eyes!!! They are ALIEN!


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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #7274168 -

I practice Vipassana meditation, which is also known as mindfulness meditation. Although the center of the practice is mindfulness of the breath, mindfulness is supposed to extend itself to all parts of ones life. Even when on the cushion, mindfulness may sometimes be shifted to things other then the breath, such as a pain, an itch, or the the physical manifestations of psychological conditions, such as muscle tension. Mindfulness should be void of conceptualizations and should just be focused on the sensations as they are, without thought.

As for drug use in conjunction with mediation, it seems to me that drug use is an extreme hindrance to meditation, at least the kind I practice. One might develop an association between there drug of choice and meditation, which would make meditation very difficult without their drug. Meditation is supposed to be something everyone, in any condition can practice, it shouldn't be conditioned on the availability of any given drug. The idea that drugs contribute positively to meditation is delusion in and of itself.

Here is a short story regarding the pygmies, a hippie "tribe," who became interested in Buddhism, but liked to smoke pot:

This is hardly surprising. More than most spiritual paths, Buddhism tends not to be very impressed by "experiences," be they spiritual or psychedelic. And Tmngpa Pinpoche, for all his outwardly wild nonconventional behavior, was a Tibetan mastiff when it came to practice: your ass was on the line, which meant on the cushion. Still, at least in the "early days" of the seventies, his sangha was wilder and more open tha many. The point, it seemed, was not to avoid samsara but to get into it directly, as long as you retumed to the cushion next morning, hungover or fried. As he said in one of his few public statements about it, LSD was a kind of "super samsara," and in asmuch as it heightened certain samsaric tendencies it could be a useful method.

About marijuana he was less tolerant. The main problem, he once told me, was that marijuana tended to "mimic meditation." This take led to a dramatic confrontation with a group of his earliest students. In the early seventies a tribe of hippies, known as the Pygmies, became students and were the first to colonize the undeveloped land that has since become known as Rocky Mountain Dharma Center. They cobbled together an odd assortment of living quarrers, yurrs, one rooms, A frames, a six sided cabin. "At night the main entertainment tended to be kicking back, pouring a beer, smoking a joint," reported Barbara Stewart about that time in The Vajradhatu Sun (August/September 1991), "but a meeting ensued, a powerful and violent clash that would eventually mean the beginning of the end of the Pygmies private

Smoking marijuana, Rinpoche said, was lying to themselves, indulging in self deception. They should bum both, marijuana and self deception... The Pygmies were taken aback, angry and confused. But only one person, call him Mike, fought back Jim Lowry remembers this scene. . 'Mike hit Rinpoche and Rinpoche hit Mike. It was violent, it was a huge eruption. Rinpoche threw a flower pot he missed Mike. Maggie screamed, 'Stop!' Rinpoche built a fire in the fireplace. 'Destroy self deception,' he was saying. It was tense but calm.... Everyone went and got dope and threw it in the fire. We were kind of chanting: 'Destroy self-deception, destroy self-deception.' . . The first dathun month long group meditation) was a turning point, confirming the obvious, that this land was to be a meditation center and not an Eden like Pygmy crafts commune


--------------------
All I know is that I dont know.

Row, row, row, you boat, gently down the stream.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream.

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Re: Vipassana Meditation [Re: badreligion2good]
    #7274749 -

Many individuals, including myself, discovered meditation as a consequence of psychedelic states. Wherever one is in one's practice, if one's system does well on psychedelics, they can show you the next horizon so-to-speak. As I said elsewhere, psychedelics are useful in conjunction with certain Yoga meditations; I cannot swear by Vipassana, but Samatha concentrations can sometimes rocket one into a Singularity of sorts, resulting in some very high Samadhis.

I did read that Lama Govinda claimed that despite his Lama rank, he never really grokked much of his training until he took LSD. Lama Govinda may be in the small minority, but he was a teacher of mine and my doctoral dissertation was based on his work, so I have a particular connection with him and his position. He wrote a preface to The Psychedelic Experience by Leary et al.

The Hindu Neem Karolie Baba, Ram Dass' Guru said LSD "could be useful," but qualified that while it gave one the Darshan of Christ, it would be better to 'Be' Christ. Obviously, some dualism was the objection. Nevertheless, it is ridiculous to be addicted to anything, and meditation is about becoming free of mental addictions. Moreover, one would not expect to live on psychedelics. They are, however, an occasional 'booster shot' for the spiritual life as I see them, for those who can use them, not for those who abuse them and not for those who may be harmed by them.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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