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Amazon Shop for: Ayahuasca, Terrence McKenna

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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
Posts: 1,286
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Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners?
    #1342986 - 02/28/03 01:55 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I have funny talks about hallucinogens with my Dad. We have different opinions on them, but we share an open discussion on the subject. He digs up clever sayings from his thought school like "Doing drugs is like prying open the closed flower of a lotus to see the beauty of it in bloom." And I say stuff like "ya whatever."

Something that's come up in our talks is that because I have no training in taking hallucinogenic drugs from a shaman, and because drug use isn't a traditional part of my cultural background, it's very dangerous for me to use mushrooms etc. Sometimes a view like this makes sense, but definetly not when I'm shroomin'! When I'm on mushrooms the idea seems ridiculous. Everything's manageable, I'm me, I'm tripping out, and the mushroom doesn't seem to care whether I have a strong affinity with its associated traditional rituals or deities. What do you guys think? Are we fucking with something in a potentially dangerous way? Maybe not physically dangerous, but could we lose our souls? Mangle our brains? Become possessed by ancient and cruel jungle spirits?

And what about Ayahuasca? I've read in a lot of places ayahuasca shamans claiming that the untrained ayahuasca taker could die from it if not in the presence of an ayahuasquero. Thoughts anyone?


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1343071 - 02/28/03 02:36 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Several points:

Because you have never had any problems on mushrooms does not mean that you won't. Most people that dabble long enough get cocky and end up over their heads; i.e. have a bad trip.

As a neophyte cannot decide who a shaman is and who isn't other than by word of mouth, how does one decide? Reputation is a very poor indicator of expertise. Look at the immense popularity of fraudlent Western "shamans" such as televangelists and TV psychics et al.

I believe you should have a sitter for ayahuasca as the experience is so variable that you might not feel anything or could have your head blown off. The dosage, unless you are quite precise and brew up a large controlled batch and take baby steps, is v-e-r-y hard to control. Ayahuasca has the potential to take one far beyond the realm of the mushroom.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Anonymous

Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1343523 - 02/28/03 06:40 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Swami's advice is very sound.

Consider the fact that native peoples who use shaman never have a problem with drugs, ever.

Some people use drugs for fun. Is that valid? I do not know the answer for that question. I can only speak from personal experience. I am a shaman in my own right but I do not, as a rule, judge others for their uses of drugs.

At least you are thinking about this and seem to have an open enough relationship with your father to talk to him about it.

You are lucky. Many kids do not have that.

Cheers,


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OfflineDogomush
Barbless Aryan

Registered: 10/05/02
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Swami]
    #1343655 - 02/28/03 08:06 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Because you have never had any problems on mushrooms does not mean that you won't. Most people that dabble long enough get cocky and end up over their heads; i.e. have a bad trip.

Well, I mean, I have had horrifying experiences on mushrooms where I did somehow end up way over my head, and I'm sure some people would call it a "bad trip" but when it was finished, I didn't regret anything. It was an interesting experience.

Consider the fact that native peoples who use shaman never have a problem with drugs, ever.

Well, I guess you have to define what you mean by "problem." I mean, I'm sure that there are plenty of native people who have had what the average thrillseeking tripper would call a bad trip. I would think that a native shamans would just have a more realistic view of what drugs are. We westerners have a way of imposing our will on things. Applied to drug tripping this would be doing a drug with ideas in your head on what you're "supposed" to get out of it, and then when the drug does what it wants, it's "What the fuck??" I read a trip report on this site that summed up was like

"It was my first trip. I had read a lot of trip reports on this site, and I decided that I would aim for a level 3. I took the mushrooms, and things weren't going well at all! Not anything that I expected. I couldn't handle it, but I think things would have gone well if only what was supposed to happen happened. Well, I hope next time it'll work out."

Yeah, it was pretty ridiculous. So I think that it's the cultural background that really prevents "bad" stuff from going on. Is this what you mean?

As a neophyte cannot decide who a shaman is and who isn't other than by word of mouth, how does one decide? Reputation is a very poor indicator of expertise.

Yeah, I agree. Lots of people out there can sound really brilliant to people who want to find a brilliant person. I know someone like that. People think he's really smart and mysterious, but really he's a petty manipulative prick who likes projecting an image of enlightened holy man. But hey, I guess people can't get enough of someone saying "Oh yeah, dude, we all just have to live with nature."




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OfflineAislingGheal
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1344211 - 03/01/03 03:29 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I wouldn't agree that one's cultural background bars anyone from the psychedelic experience. I believe a strong case has been made for the idea that the use of entheogens lies behind the beginnings of humanity as we currently know it (see McKenna in particular). What is important is a respectful approach to any hallucinogen. You should research them thoroughly first before considering the usage of any one of them. A good sitter is always advisable, and if you are unsure of a sitter wait until you find one you trust completely. You should also sit in quiet reflection, examining your mind state, before ingesting anything. This can weed out potential problems later on. If you find conflict or anxiety you should wait for another time when you're calmer or clearer. You should also be cautious as far as dosage, it only makes sense. You want to get there all right, but you want to make sure you get back as well.

I have no experience with Ayahuasca but I've read interesting things about it. Apparently seeing snakes and jaguars is a common feature in these visions, very ethnocentric. McKenna's theory on this, based on the work of Rupert Sheldrake, is that Ayauasca has had such a long specific usage with Amazonian tribes that the vibe of it developed parallel with the unconscious hopes and fears of the tribesmen over time (see " History Ends in Green, tape 3" by McKenna). Hope this helps.


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"I hate having to pick between the lesser of two evils. But I'm glad Obama was elected. McCain was another war monger. I'd rather deal with our country going into debt than trying to take on afghanistan...oh wait FUCK!" - Fungus_tao


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InvisibleCosmicJokeM
happy mutant
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1344760 - 03/01/03 11:55 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

If you have established a healthy social and occupational life, are pursuing many engaging interests, have been loved and are good at loving, a confident lover, are one who is impressionable enough to see the world in radically different ways (as opposed to a black and white way of looking at the world, in which it seems you no longer need to learn), have been loved...... are educating yourself about what you're doing.....

psychedelics aren't dangerous, examine your own lifestyle, is it dangerous? do no harm. let these wild ideas be. focus on doing no harm.

having the opportunity to cultivate and prepare is eco-psychologically in tune....

do no harm.



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Everything is better than it was the last time.  I'm good.

If we could look into each others hearts, and understand the unique challenges each of us faces, I think we would treat each other much more gently, with more love, patience, tolerance, and care.

It takes a lot of courage to go out there and radiate your essence.

I know you scared, you should ask us if we scared too.  If you was there, and we just knew you cared too.


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Offline3eyedgod
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: AislingGheal]
    #1344982 - 03/01/03 02:07 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

you find conflict or anxiety you should wait for another time when you're calmer or clearer.

It's good advice, however when I'm about to take a potent hallucinogen, I know at least to some degree, what's about to happen to me. Knowing how powerful the states invoked can be, and that I'm about to relinguish myself completely to this terrible,wonderful force, produces a state of anxiety in and of itself. Once I take the final step and ingest is when the anxiety abates. When I know that there's no turning back, I calm down right quick.


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Without everything wouldn't nothing be everything and without nothing wouldn't everything be nothing.I am the beginning and the end,the source and the void, the light and the darkness,i am but a small drop of the ocean yet i am an ocean unto myself


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1346617 - 03/02/03 12:13 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

"Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners?"

On the contrary!! I feel that the more "culturalized" one has become, the more use one can get out of psychedelics...... there's more ground to cover to obtain ego-loss in the western world, IMO, because our egos out here are VERY TIGHTLY woven into our subconscious


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE


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InvisibleXibalba
Stranger
Registered: 05/14/00
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1346865 - 03/02/03 02:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

> clever sayings from his thought school like "Doing drugs is like
> prying open the closed flower of a lotus to see the beauty of it in
> bloom."

This sounds like the typical arrogant attitude of people who are into spiritual meditation and claim they can 'get there without drugs' yet haven't even tried the drugs for comparison- because they see them as a 'cheap shortcut.' If your dad's given mushrooms a fair chance and they've never done anything helpful for him- then that's cool, nothing is good for everyone. But if not, I'd join you in saying; "Whatever." And add that there are none so blind as those who will not see...

I don't believe in spiritual authority figures. In fact, a 'shaman' from a traditional South American village probably would have little of value to teach you- they might be an expert on the mushroom's value to their culture, but you and I already know more about its' value to ours. The traditional rituals are just another way of imposing one's expectations on a trip. Nothing is sacred/ everything is sacred.
Sure, you can learn from their passed-down wisdom, but you can learn more from an open mind and no expectations. After all that's where the traditional rituals had to come from at one point or another.

Ayahuasca- Hmmm. A very hard thing to teach or guide someone about, because I think the more experience you have with it the more difficult it becomes to explain. ( ? )
My feelings right now-
No, you can't die (as long as you take care with the MAOIs.)
I think it's good for you, that most people can benefit from it.
But yes, you are fucking with something in a potentially dangerous way. Regardless of your initial intent, I think if you take enough it will put a bit of the Shaman in you- like it or not- and that's something a lot of people in our culture have a hard time handling.


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OfflineDogomush
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Registered: 10/05/02
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1346947 - 03/02/03 03:08 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

This sounds like the typical arrogant attitude of people who are into spiritual meditation and claim they can 'get there without drugs' yet haven't even tried the drugs for comparison- because they see them as a 'cheap shortcut.'

Yeah that's exactly it. I guess because of Tim Leary they think that the reason people do drugs is to become enlightened, and they speak out against that, but that's just one person's interpretation. Terrence said some good stuff in a speech where he was articulating why it's ridiculous to discredit mushrooms without eating them. Don't remember what he said, but knowing this forum I'm sure nobody would contest me if I said it was gold.

The traditional rituals are just another way of imposing one's expectations on a trip.
Yeah, I agree. Not to say it isn't useful, though, because I think that that sort of thing is an excellent safety net, and the best way for directing the trip to a positive outcome.


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OfflineMushyMay
Brian Eno is mypersonal God FNORD

Registered: 02/19/02
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Loc: ACT, Australia
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Dogomush]
    #1347098 - 03/02/03 04:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

IMO sometimes it's nice to add ritual to a mushy trip.  It can help to add that something special.  Of course there's also nothing wrong with having mushies just for fun.  Reading McKenna, Wilson, Watts and Leary has definitely changed my attitude towards hallucinogens in more ways than one but specifically in that I don't like to think of them as hallucinogens at all.  Dismissing psychedelic experiences as hallucinations just seems trite.  Just my AU$0.02 :smile: 


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MushyMay is a fictional character, as a result any information provided by MushyMay is also fictitious.


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Anonymous

Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1347231 - 03/02/03 05:11 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't believe in spiritual authority figures. In fact, a 'shaman' from a traditional South American village probably would have little of value to teach you- they might be an expert on the mushroom's value to their culture, but you and I already know more about its' value to ours. The traditional rituals are just another way of imposing one's expectations on a trip. Nothing is sacred/ everything is sacred.

So a shaman like Maria Sabina's healing ceremonies have no more validity than a some whacked out 13 year old stuffing "b00m3rz" into his mouth without thinking in an effort to escape a reality he cannot face?

This sounds like conflating issues to me. Rituals are of great benefit in reducing the number of hazards associated with drug abuse. You won't find entheogenic substances directly abused by Native people but you will find HUGE drug problems in our society.

What do you attribute that to?


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: ]
    #1347284 - 03/02/03 05:33 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

> What do you attribute that to?

Our society is sick and full of idiots with no respect for anything and no responsibility for their actions. The majority of Americans are not mature enough for psychedelic drugs for the same reason they are not mature enough for alcohol or guns.
The whole 'Drug Free America' movement is partly to blame, for perpetuating the mindset that all drug use is drug abuse. Ok, let's be rebels and abuse some drugs...

>Sabina's healing ceremonies have no more validity than a some whacked out 13 year old

Oh come now. You know very well that I wasn't saying that.

I'm saying someone who's grown up in this society can still take mushrooms in a positive and responsible way and get the same benefits as someone following their ancient tradition.

I don't think Maria Sabina could have done much to 'heal' your whacked out 13-year old either. (You can lead a horse to water, etc.)


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Anonymous

Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1347310 - 03/02/03 05:45 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Thanks for the clarification! :smile:

I wasn't being coy.  I really didn't understand what you were implying.  Yes, I agree with that.  One certainly does not need some shaman to lead them in order to have a positive experience on mind manifesting substances.  But they do need the requisite maturity.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Shamanism's hallucinogens.. Not meant for us westerners? [Re: ]
    #1347939 - 03/03/03 03:54 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

So a shaman like Maria Sabina's healing ceremonies have no more validity than a some whacked out 13 year old stuffing "b00m3rz" into his mouth

Wow Mr. Mush, ignoratio elenchi again?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Amazon Shop for: Ayahuasca, Terrence McKenna

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