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InvisibleSclorch
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Personal Change & Determinism
    #2167800 - 12/08/03 02:05 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Note: If determinism were true...

1. In a determinist world, does personal change even exist?

2. Doesn't the definition of "change" necessarily imply that an alternate condition is possible?


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2167811 - 12/08/03 02:08 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

what's determinism?


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2167820 - 12/08/03 02:13 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Determinism

Now, bookmark this link: http://www.dictionary.com


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2167828 - 12/08/03 02:17 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

can I just memorize? and as far as the topic is concerned: No. I mean, yes.


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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #2168190 - 12/08/03 05:31 AM (13 years, 6 days ago)

think of it more as personal evolution, you change, but you change in the way you had to given all prior circumstances and the current one. "You" are the result of all kinds of prior causes and effects, and you continue to be so, but as circumstances change inevitably so do you.
Sincerely,
That which is, and has no choice but to be


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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: ZenGecko]
    #2168905 - 12/08/03 01:58 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

So... your answer to question 2 is "No"?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2169120 - 12/08/03 04:28 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

I am still learning about fate and free will and determinism. I don't believe in determinism. I think you can change the outcome of your life.

I would be interested in Ped's take on this based on his karma background.


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2169170 - 12/08/03 04:49 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

What's your definition of "personal change"?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Annom]
    #2169187 - 12/08/03 04:57 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

Okay, wait a minute...

de?ter?min?ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-t?rm-nzm)
n.
The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.

So this would be in keeping with karma, wouldn't it? I don't have time (note emphasis on "time" is in italics) to go to a book store or take a class on karma.

So can you change the outcome by changing the acts? You can change your karma and thus change the outcome of where your life would be going, right? Can you do this under determinism?


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OfflineAnnomM
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Frog]
    #2169202 - 12/08/03 05:05 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

No, you can't change the outcome.

http://www.determinism.com/


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Offlinepsychopsilocyber
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2169360 - 12/08/03 06:38 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

My thinking: Big bang, i think it's very possible that it could all re-collapse and explode. Energy can neither be created nor destroyed, so the next time it explodes would explode under the same conditions(theoretically) so that means the quarks, atoms, stars, galaxies, solar system, earth, this life should all happen the same after every big bang. Just because it happens the same doesnt mean it's pre-determined, or does it? there's no evidence either way, but I do think it's possible. I also think it's possible for personal change to occur in a world that is pre-determined, maybe one would have the same personal change the next bang around if that is how things work.


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Offlineentiformatie
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: psychopsilocyber]
    #2169434 - 12/08/03 07:07 PM (13 years, 6 days ago)

energy can be "created," or borrowed rather. so i remember hearing as a scientific fact from many papers. it's borrowed in extremely small amounts that can't really do anything. but the fact that it can be done... freaky.

and i can't help but believe in determinism. however, it doesn't strip us of free will. i don't believe the way our brain acts to be our free will. i believe we chose how we will react to our the chemical reactions in our brain. however, those chemical reactions are the products of everything that has ever happened. my opinion.


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Offlineiamhimheisme
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Frog]
    #2170144 - 12/08/03 11:55 PM (13 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
de?ter?min?ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-t?rm-nzm)
n.
The philosophical doctrine that every state of affairs, including every human event, act, and decision is the inevitable consequence of antecedent states of affairs.





by this definition id say that change within a deterministic world is most definitely possible. change is dependent on two or more events/behaviors/times/whatever and its not something that can happen at one point in time. by the latter i simply mean that at one point, a person cannot change because the two (or more) events/behaviors/times/whatever cannot happen at once. if i was an asshole as an adolescent and saw what that did to others and experienced how that made me feel, because of those effects i will more than likely change my behavior. that change is the "consequence of antecedent states of affairs" and, imo, therefore deterministic. two different states of being cannot be the same simply because one caused the other or because they are both states of one individual.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Annom]
    #2170376 - 12/09/03 01:22 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

I don't believe in determinism. I think determinism is the opposite of karma.

From the link that you posted:

"All of humanity’s thoughts, feelings, and behaviors are caused (forced) by one or more determinants. (The concept of “free will” is so elusive it can’t even be defined, except to mean without cause, chaotic.)" http://www.determinism.com/axioms.shtml

I don’t see how free will can cause chaos. I am an example of someone whose past should have predicated my future, but I exercised my free will and overcame that past. My life is anything but chaotic.

From the link you posted:

"As sophisticated and complex animals, humans have determinants ranging from genes to upbringing, culture, current situation, unconscious activity, past experiences and, as observed by Peter Gill, conscious thought. On the other hand, one who believes in the existence of free will holds that a person's choices are self-determined. In other words, one can make a choice to act a certain way regardless of, or despite his or her determinants. Thus, Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary (1975) defines "free will" as "the power asserted of moral beings of choosing within limitations or with respect to some matters without restraint of physical or divine necessity or causal law." (emphasis added). I call one who believes in free will a "me-ist," for this view is about the triumph of "me" over all causes." http://www.determinism.com/05042002.shtml

And there was more, and even after reading the rest of what was written, I have to disagree. I don’t think that we lack free will. I have made choices to do things that are contrary to the way I was raised. Based on this article, and because of how I was raised, I should not be who I am today. But because of my “free will”, I was able to change my circumstances and re-direct my life.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Sclorch]
    #2170524 - 12/09/03 02:27 AM (13 years, 5 days ago)

"2. Doesn't the definition of "change" necessarily imply that an alternate condition is possible? "

Not necessarily.
You're changing your opinion, or deciding to do something differently, but this would just be the natural course of everything arranging itself.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: Personal Change & Determinism [Re: Phluck]
    #2171141 - 12/11/03 02:02 AM (13 years, 3 days ago)

Fate v. Free Will
1996, 2002 Curtis Manwaring

We have all heard the phrase "The stars impel, but do not compel". I should digress a bit and tell you that "free will" is an oxymoron. For this reason I prefer the term free choice. If you think about it, the will is not really free, but is a source of determination. If it could not be a source of determination then it would not be a will at all. Bonatti in his treatise Liber Astronimae, book I, spoke of the church's objections to astrology and framed the issue of choice within a process which varies over time. He said then that initially we have to choose, then it becomes our direction of will and we become determined depending upon how strong we intend it. For instance, before marriage we choose, afterwards, it has been decided, and fate has taken over because some of the possibilities have been borne off from it. This is not an all or nothing proposition in my opinion. Having said this, I do believe that much of the time we are subject to the whims of competing interests and it often looks as though the strongest interest wins. The point is that some of this determination appears to come from outside and some comes from within. However, we do not have absolute free will. If you think you have absolute free will, try forcing the Sun to stop moving across the sky. I should point out that most of us would not want absolute free choice. It leads to infinite possibilities and infinite complications as well as no inherent destination in life. A famous aphorism of Rob Hand's is: 'Pretium arbitrii liberi est nullam destinationem habere' which means: 'the price of free will is having no destiny'.

http://www.astrology-x-files.com/astro-philosophy/fate.htm


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