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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4653391 -

I think therefore I think I am.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4653461 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
Does objective truth exist or is all truth subject to relativism by culure, race, or religion? If you think objective truth does exist please give an example. I tend to think that truth is relative.


I think there is such a thing as objective truth. cultural relativism comes into play where different cultures, races, religions place differing values on on that objective truth. The amusing thing is that it is impossible to express objective truth without first filtering it through ones prejudices and value system, rendering one's truth a subjective one. I would propose that objective truth has no moral/emotional/judgement value assigned to it.


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4653898 -

Quote:
Of course objective truth exists.
.
"I think, therefore I am," is a statement which is objectively true. It is objectively true that water will exist in solid form at -20 degrees Celsius. It is objectively true that a gas will expand to fill its container uniformly. It is objectively true that a human deprived of all water for thirty days will die.


Quote:
"I think therefore I am."


that's a perception of an organism regarding itself. Highly subjective. You might not even exist.

Quote:
It is objectively true that water will exist in solid form at -20 degrees Celsius.


Not in a vacuum. Not when said water is diluted with an equal part of alcohol. Not if the water is pressurized to the extent that the expansion of ice formation (d 1.0 to d 0.9) cannot occur.

Quote:
It is objectively true that a gas will expand to fill its container uniformly.


Not if the container is infinitelty large, because then it takes an infinitely long time and it just will not happen. And look at the sun: a huge cloud of gas piles up to a ball rather than expands to fill the container, because it was a cloud of hydrogen before it contracted.

Quote:
It is objectively true that a human deprived of all water for thirty days will die.




Not if he is in cryogenic suspension, a state which is a biuologic reality which only cannot be created yet because of mere practical technicalities. Not if he's brought into a state of hibernation ("stasis") like bears and squirrels do every winter.


Soo Phred.. all your "objective truths" turned out to be subjective according to observations following the methodology of science.

Science, too, is nothing more than a system of logic. If you listen to the great minds of science theyu basically say: "we think we are very close, but we aren't there yet".

So even science is a leap of faith. Want proof of that?
Science demands that a new theory, when applied, yields reproducible results, otherwise its no science.

That is dogma just like any other religion.

Who says that everything is reproducible if you exactly repeat the variables that precipitated it? That is a giant leap of faith my friend, at the very core of science!


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Asante]
    #4654187 -

Sophistry.

For the sake of brevity I didn't supply all the necesary parameters because I knew people arguing honestly would assume them.

A bubble of gas massing .001 gram injected into a partially evacuated gas-impermeable container of one cubic meter volume will expand to fill the container, eventually.

As for, "I think, therefore I am," not being proof of existence, more nonsense. As several others in this thread have pointed out, that is one thing that can be objectively known.



Phred


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Diploid]
    #4654229 -

Diploid writes:

Quote:
So... the only objective thing you can know is that you exist.


To accept that as truth leads to nothing more than solipsism, which is a dead end philosophically speaking.

Huehuecoyotl's question assumes the existence of existents other than yourself. To reduce it to solipsism right off the bat defeats the purpose of asking the question. If the tenets of solipsism are true, there is no point discussing anything.

This is the inherent paradox to people pretending they are solipsists -- they themselves don't believe it. Their actions indicate they have no confidence in their "belief". Solipsism is a useless (and of course dangerous) "philosophy".

There is objective truth and humans are capable of discovering it. The only way to deny the existence of objective truth is to clang shut the door of solipsism -- which as I pointed out already stifles all philosophical discussion. It's like picking up your ball and going home.



Phred


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Diploid]
    #4654249 -

Quote:
If you are not aware that you exist, then you cannot exist.


Not so. Are viruses self-aware? Nope. They nonetheless exist. Is a pebble aware it exists? Nope.

For that matter, was Terry Schiavo aware she existed in the last years of her life? She nonetheless existed.

Existence does not require self-awareness, although the reverse is true.





Phred


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Ravus]
    #4654263 -

Quote:
You assume that which you perceive subjectly in your subjective mind is objectively true, which is quite a leap of faith.


I have no evidence to the contrary and every evidence supporting it. Every time I drop a rock, it falls to the ground. It is therefore no leap of faith at all to believe in the existence of gravity but a huge leap of faith to presume that everything I experience is illusory -- the product of some insensate consciousness daydreaming in a void somewhere.

If you dismiss the evidence provided by your senses, it is of course easy to deny the existence of objective truth. Hell, if you deny the evidence of your senses it is easy to deny the evidence of everything other than your own existence, leading us back once again to -- surprise, surprise -- solipsism.




Phred


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4654264 -

Phred said:
As for, "I think, therefore I am," not being proof of existence, more nonsense. As several others in this thread have pointed out, that is one thing that can be objectively known.


Nope. The closest thing to an objective fact that you can get from that is "thoughts exist."


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #4654270 -

Define "thought".



Phred


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #4654279 -

Quote:
As for, "I think, therefore I am," not being proof of existence, more nonsense. As several others in this thread have pointed out, that is one thing that can be objectively known.


Umm, no, because... (bear with me)

Quote:
he closest thing to an objective fact that you can get from that is "thoughts exist."


Both these things assume logic exists, or has a bearing on the possible objective reality. If logic crumbles, nothing makes sense.

"I think therefore I am" is bollocks because it assumes that the logic that goes along with it exists as well.

You are assuming the way you think is a point of solid ground, but none of us have any solid ground to stand on.


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Omnicyclion.org
personal empowerment for the world

:nyan: LGBT - Love God Before Tradition :nyan:

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4654280 -

An idea or perception


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4654321 -

Yes, an acient, interesting question.
I can't see objects flying before my eyes, shifting forms, can't see mices eating cats, can't see trees on the moon,...
So I decide to see as objective, that there is some system there outside, some rules, which count for us, too.
And I see it as objective, that it is good for humans, to follow those rules, to stay existent some time...


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #4654768 -

Perceptions can't exist without both something to perceive and a perceiver. This implies not only the perceiver (the solipsist) but also that which is perceived (the not-solipsist, or the outside world).



Phred


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4656643 -

this thread has become incredibly rediculous. there are two sides arguing 1'st year philosophy on an issue that cannot be resolved. each side holds firmly to the belief that they are 100% right. can you not put aside the question of whether Descartes was right to offer some constructive ideas on the reality of objective moral truth? after all that was the original question of this thread.


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #4656739 -

Quote:
I think therefore I think I am.

  :grin:

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: psychomime]
    #4656751 -

psychomime, chill out. Not everyone has taken first year philosophy so the bantar which is old hand to some is stimulating conversation for others. That's why where here, after all.  :wink:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Diploid]
    #4656783 -

:twitchy: oh yeah i forgot that. but you must admit that the constant arguing in circles is neither constructive nor on topic. I was interested to hear some opinions on moral objectivity that was the initial premise of this thread and it turned in a mental wank fest.


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: psychomime]
    #4656800 -

The original topic was, "Is there objective truth?". I think there is.
Unfortunately I'm having a hard time putting it into words.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: psychomime]
    #4656867 -

Before you can address the concept of a code of ethics (morality) based on objective truth, you must first determine if there is such a thing as objective truth. To anyone who trusts the evidence provided by their own senses, there is objective truth, though we may not know every true thing right at this minute and we may mistakenly believe at this minute some things to be true which in future may be shown not to be true.

By invoking solipsism at the first opportunity, the solipsists shut down the thread. Not the first time it's happened, won't be the last. But there have been many threads dealing with the derivation of morality -- do a search of the forum and bump one if you wish.


Phred


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4656882 -

Do you believe objective truth can coexist with the possibility that it is not true, such as if solipsism was indeed correct?

Truth itself cannot coexist without being verified, and objective truth cannot be verified, so the thought that objective truth exists is just as untestable as the thought that objective truth doesn't exist, as supported by solipsism.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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