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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Objective Truth
    #4650756 - 09/12/05 04:49 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Does objective truth exist or is all truth subject to relativism by culure, race, or religion? If you think objective truth does exist please give an example. I tend to think that truth is relative.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinecherokee
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650814 - 09/12/05 05:02 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I man. I like fuck. I like food.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: cherokee]
    #4650844 - 09/12/05 05:08 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Someone recently told me that The Ten Commandments were absolute and that any culture that ignore them walked the path of untruth.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: cherokee]
    #4650856 - 09/12/05 05:10 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Well said.

I think there is a solid 'truth' that exists, but can never be known. Unless solispism is correct, we all seem to be basing our experiences off of the same thing. We can both go into a field, see a tree, and agree that SOMETHING is there. How we see the tree, the meaning of the tree, etc are all subjectively filtered through our CNS. Although, this is merely my suspicion.


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PsyPost - Psychedelic Research


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4650895 - 09/12/05 05:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Someone recently told me that The Ten Commandments were absolute and that any culture that ignore them walked the path of untruth.




They way 10 commandments were presented has nothing to do with universal truths or true paths. It is something that you either obey of pay for it.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #4650909 - 09/12/05 05:21 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I know...that is where their flaw lies in my view.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineAngeloWish
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4651009 - 09/12/05 05:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The objective and absolut truth could exist, but no one can actually 'see' it; all out interpretations are nothing but that, pieces of events or phenomena that we sprinkle with our pre-existant judgment and point of view. That is if you believe that things (objective truth included) exist even if there is no spectator (observer)-. I don't.


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+'this' reality is the one i like the most+


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Offlinedaimyo
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4651189 - 09/12/05 06:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Strictly asexual creatures reproduce asexually. Objective truth?


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"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."


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OfflineAsanteA
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4651258 - 09/12/05 06:53 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I believe that the only truth we can perceive is subjective, because we are subjective. Perhaps there's an objective truth, and we may have "objective truths" in our arse
nal, but we as subjective beings cannot tell "truth" from a really consistent delusion.

The earth is flat. See: as far as you can gaze its flat!
Who can argue with that?

We now think we know the earth is a sphere but any hopped up physicist can tell you that might be because we lack the ability to see Earth from the Fifth, sixth or whateverest dimension.

I believe for the full 99%
With this I mean that we all can be sure we "know", but 1% says we can be wrong. After all, we don't know if the entire human experience has any bearing of what might be the "real real" reality.
And that 1% enables us to dialog, because if you think you are 100% right then everyuone else in your eyes may be 100% wrong anmd then no dialog takes place, only people telling eachother what theyu believe in, and not learning from eachother.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Asante]
    #4651441 - 09/12/05 07:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

everything is subject to change even the object shifts into the subject and man turns to blades of grass


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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4651728 - 09/12/05 08:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

By definition, truth must be absolute and objective. If truth is subjective and constantly changing, then it's not really truth, but a simple interpretation.

At most, basic existence is the only truth, as no matter how many delusions we acquire, there must be some basic existence there to support the interpretations. Of course, this doesn't really state anything, as existence is simply assumed when talking about truth, since without existence we wouldn't be talking at all.

In the end, there is nothing absolute; every word is propaganda, and every thought an interpretation.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Ravus]
    #4651905 - 09/12/05 09:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Great answer. I agree.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4652052 - 09/12/05 10:00 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
Great answer. I agree.




I agree also.


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


Edited by bellylard (09/12/05 10:00 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4652479 - 09/12/05 11:23 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Huehuecoyotl writes:

Quote:

Does objective truth exist or is all truth subject to relativism by culure, race, or religion?




Of course objective truth exists.

"I think, therefore I am," is a statement which is objectively true. It is objectively true that water will exist in solid form at -20 degrees Celsius. It is objectively true that a gas will expand to fill its container uniformly. It is objectively true that a human deprived of all water for thirty days will die.

Etc. etc.



Phred


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4652525 - 09/12/05 11:29 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

These things are physical phenomenon. I should have clarified... I was refering to philosophical and moral truths. I did not clarify because this board is for philosophy and spirituality.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #4652579 - 09/12/05 11:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"I think, therefore I am."

Objectively true or not? Is it not a statement generated by philosophical inquiry?

What about the objective truth that a human requires water, food, shelter, tools (property, in other words) in order to be able to continue to make the statement "I think, therefore I am"? Does this objective truth not form the basis of a code of ethics by which human behavior in a societal context is carried out? Is ethics not a branch of philosophy?




Phred


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4652593 - 09/12/05 11:42 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

whats truth to you, if you trip shrooms for a year, ever day the truth to you is a shroom trip

but who is to not say that is truth

or who is to not say that our dreams are the truth, i mean we do use more of our conscious mind in a dream than in waking life

objective truth may exist, but the path to finding it is almost impossible, and very rarely traversed. Pm me if you want my version, im goin to sleep


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"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
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InvisibleRavus
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4652656 - 09/12/05 11:53 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

You assume that which you perceive subjectly in your subjective mind is objectively true, which is quite a leap of faith.

You can never verify those phenonema outside of your subjective reality. You say a man deprived of water for 30 days will die, but how do you know that man even exists? If the man only exists the neural pathways of your brain, then he could potentially live forever without water or food, because everything you think of as truth is actually a subjective interpretation of some form of existence. You are not necessarily receiving the existence itself.

And if every man you've ever met only existed in your neural pathways, then your truths are only a reflection of your mind's experiences, not of the absolute universe. "I think therefore I am" may be true, despite the obvious bias' in Descartes reasoning, because there must be some existence to base any delusion or interpretation on. But beyond that, existence verifies nothing, and everything becomes relative.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4652700 - 09/13/05 12:00 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What about the objective truth that a human requires water, food, shelter, tools

These are subjective, not objective.

It could be that you are experiencing a very consistent delusion from the day you were born thinking that you require food, water, and all the rest.

If it is the case that you do not require food or water and you have no way of becoming aware of your delusion, then you're back to the only objective truth is "I think therefore I am".

In other words, the only thing you can know with absolute, 100% certainty is that you exist.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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Offlinecrunchytoast
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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Ravus]
    #4652739 - 09/13/05 12:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You assume that which you perceive subjectly in your subjective mind is objectively true, which is quite a leap of faith.




perhaps no leap of faith but something implicit in all subjectivity?

Quote:

And if every man you've ever met only existed in your neural pathways, then your truths are only a reflection of your mind's experiences, not of the absolute universe.




what experience could inspire us humans to generate the concept of absolute universe, if it's something unencounterable?


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"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger


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