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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Diploid]
    #4652861 -

If you know that you exist and you know that you exist because you think then you know that thinking is a condition of existance.

If thinking is a conditon of existance, then you know that existance has at least one property.

Not so quick,

Come on if existance follows from thinking then a whole shit load of stuff
follows. Oky doky so, I think. Ok, I think. The I is important it is subjective. It is that which thinks. Ok, I am. Therefore. Therefore is a
conditional word that allows there to be conditions place on existance or
that you as a subjective entity can recognize the conditions necessary for
existance. I could go on and on and on. Once you except, "I think therefore I am." as a true statement you've openned up a whole world of unsubstantiated
truths. And that's the truth.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4652943 -

But all that boils down to the objective knowledge that you exist because in you can't go beyond that; you can never absolutely know that the logical constructs you just created are real and not delusions. :shrug:

The word 'therefore' presumes causality which if it's not real, then even "I think therefore I am" is not necessarily true.

So... the only objective thing you can know is that you exist.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Diploid]
    #4653029 -

If you recognize a subject (you) and a verb (know) there are three truths.
There is you.
There is self awareness. Self awareness is two truths. There is part of you that is aware of you. There is part of you that recognizes that awareness is.

"I think therefor I am." is I think therefor dependent on language and is not
a Universal truth.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4653072 -

You put too much meaning into "I think therefore I am".

In my opinion, it simply means that the person has some sort of process going on, so they must exist in some form. It says nothing about the nature of the process, or the nature of their existence; it simply verifies that something does indeed exist.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Phred]
    #4653078 -

Phred said:
"I think, therefore I am."

Objectively true or not? Is it not a statement generated by philosophical inquiry?


No, it is not objectively true. It is circular logic which fails to hold up to scrutiny. If you say "I think," then you are assuming that there is an "I" to do the thinking. Thus, the statement presupposes the conclusion as its premise.


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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Ravus]
    #4653101 -

You still are left with a something that does stuff and recognizes it does
stuff. That's a whole lot of truth.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4653107 -

i think therefore i am-
there are these thoughts, appearing and disappearing, soldiers marching through consciousness

to say that this implies an "i" that exists behind them-
bollocks. as ravus says, leap of faith


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4653109 -

And it knows it is something.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Silversoul]
    #4653113 -

Have you read Nietzsche? He made the same argument, except a lot longer with a lot more criticism of the quote.

But I believe people look into the "I" and "thought" too much. Don't put faith in semantics as the philosophical thought process. Of course, I'd need to see it within context of whatever Descartes was writing to tell whether he was advocating a strong version of that quote which you argue against, or a weak version that simply says something exists which is almost impossible to argue against, but I choose to interpret it as the weak version. If indeed it was the strong version, you're right, the quote would be a leap of faith.


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So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4653129 -

Didn't seem like he said bullocks to me. I thought he was defending the
statement.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4653141 -

If you recognize a subject (you) and a verb (know) there are three truths.
There is you.

But how could you be certain that any of that is true and not delusion?

Without a way to determine the answer to this question, everything you think is true may not be. And you're back to knowing with perfect certainty only that you exist.

--

As far as the concept "knowing that you exist" goes, it is, from an information theoretical point of view, a one-bit entropy. It is exactly one piece of knowledge (even though English puts it into several words) and it can have exactly two possible values:

1. You exist
2. You do not exist

Given this, you can argue that if 1 is true, then you must grant that at least one other thing must exist, your non-existence, which cannot follow logically.

So, you're back to knowing only one thing: that you exist.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Diploid]
    #4653194 -

If you have self awareness as described by Descartes statement, then you must
have awareness, self and a relationship between the two. This is already more
than two truths. For the self, is aware of self and aware of
the recognition of self.

Had to edit didn't make sense.

Edited by falcon (09/12/05 11:02 PM)

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4653208 -

Quote:
Didn't seem like he said bullocks to me. I thought he was defending the
statement.


i believe the leap of faith criticism holds up regardless of whether ravus feels it applies to "i think therefore i am." it's the leap of faith criticism i was refering to.


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Diploid]
    #4653237 -

Quote:
As far as the concept "knowing that you exist" goes, it is, from an information theoretical point of view, a one-bit entropy. It is exactly one piece of knowledge (even though English puts it into several words) and it can have exactly two possible values:

1. You exist
2. You do not exist

Given this, you can argue that if 1 is true, then you must grant that at least one other thing must exist, your non-existence, which cannot follow logically.\



So, you're back to knowing only one thing: that you exist.



No knowledge can be transmitted in one bit. No knowledge can be known in one bit. There's a couple of truths.

Edit: quotes in the wrong place.

Edited by falcon (09/12/05 11:12 PM)

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4653249 -

how many bits are required to transmit knowledge?


--------------------
"consensus on the nature of equilibrium is usually established by periodic conflict." -henry kissinger

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4653258 -

If you have self awareness as described by Descartes statement, then you must
have awareness, self and a relationship between the two.

You're inventing something that isn't there.

If you are not aware that you exist, then you cannot exist. You awarenes of yourself IS existence. They are the same (one) thing.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Objective Truth [Re: falcon]
    #4653269 -

No knowledge can be transmitted in one bit.

Sure it can: TRUE/FALSE


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: crunchytoast]
    #4653298 -

A whole bunch, I'm not being sacastic either.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Diploid]
    #4653309 -

"I convinced myself that there is nothing at all in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies; is it not therefore also true that I do not exist? However, I certainly did exist, if I convinced my self of something. There is some unidentified deceiver, however, all powerful and cunning, who is dedicated to deceiving me constantly. Therefore it is indubitable that I also exist, if he deceives me?he will still never bring it about that I am nothing as long as I think I am something."

My interpretation of Descartes' quote is that he simply is saying the one thing he cannot doubt is his own existence. He's not talking about the self, or even awareness, but just existence, because to doubt, to hold delusions, to assume the self exists even, you must first exist. The fact that something exists, in some form, or even just existence itself, is the only possibly absolute truth.

The sense of self is subjective; there's no absolute way to know the self exists. It could just be a delusion of some greater existence, dreaming the self and awareness, but really nothing of that nature is there. We can never know the form of anything objectively, only the fact that something exists, some how, some way.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

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Re: Objective Truth [Re: Diploid]
    #4653332 -

TRUE/FALSE is one bit. Does it stand alone as knowledge?

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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