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god proof
    #3894006 -

A friend once drew this chart for me, and said it was the most convincing arguement to believe in god that she has ever seen.

......................God exists...............God doesn?t exist
Believe.............Infinite pleasure.......Finite pain
Don?t believe.....Infinite pain.............Finite pleasure

If you don?t believe, and when you die you just rot, then your existence was wholly pleasurable. If you do believe, and when you die thats it, then your existence was wholly painful. But if you don?t believe, and that turns out to be wrong, you spend the forever in pain. But your existence was not wholly painful. If you believe, and you turn out to be right, you spend forever in pleasure. But your existence was not wholly pleasurable, either.

But this chart compares only two groups, believers of a monotheistic (belief in god) with a ?heaven-hell? scenario as an afterlife, and while everyone else, including those who believe in a different god or gods, are lumped into the ?don?t believe? category. I think this chart was designed so simply to ignores a strong, real-life, point. Why have hundreds of religions claimed to be the one true faith, and how can you discount hundreds of religions by believing in just one? Each has its own wide base of believers, of which there are many willing to die for their belief. Going by the chart, if billions of people are picking the wrong god, they will live a wholly painful existence. There isn?t a way to tell for sure if you?ve picked right, and your chances of picking the one right one are terrible. Much less than 1%, if you go by how many religions there are to choose from.

And it seems pPlenty of people go to church as ?just in case? patrons of that faith. Of course, nobody wants to spend existence in infinite pain, but should the fear of that be enough to perpetuate the very rules that caused that fear? To me, it was a great liberation when I realized that the biggest argument for believing in god is a looped; you first must believe to be afraid of not believing.

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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894033 -

I've heard this case many times before, but it still does nothing for me...


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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894065 -

So basically it's like "You might as well believe, because if you don't, and it turns out you're wrong, you're screwed."

Yeah, that doesn't really work for me.

Someone could tell me "If you don't shoot yourself in the head in the next 5 minutes, you'll spend eternity in hell." I'm not going to shoot myself in the head just in case... I have no reason at all to think that might be true other than someone tells me it is. Same with God.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894140 -

TheShroomHermit said:
......................God exists...............God doesn?t exist
Believe.............Infinite pleasure.......Finite pain
Don?t believe.....Infinite pain.............Finite pleasure




God exists..........I exist.................God doesn't exist
Believe.............conform.................give money to the church
Don't believe.......free will...............live through your own eyes (and don't let someone tell you a god is going to 'shit' on you if you don't follow the interpretations as they suggest them)

The primary difference in my chart is that at the top, their is one thing that can be proven beyond a doubt.

The reasoning is one based, and perpetuated to the extent that you give a shit of what lies beyond after this life. You can't prove to me beyond a doubt that something can exist, beyond anecdotal evidence. I can make up a system of belief right now if you want, (could even do it with the help of the shroomery) that casts your wayward soul into the dephts of hell if you don't believe it, yet if you have piety, and are observant to the laws of man, then you will indeliably be granted a great afterlife.

Edit:
Ever see a hostage/SWAT negotiation on tv or in rl? If you have, you'll know what I'm talking about... they tell the dude that has the power to stop and/or do something that they don't want that they'll do everything they want for him. (A bit abstract; I realize this, but same thing for most religions that suggest conformity or death...)

An even greater issue presented by this is:

1) having multiple people telling you about their belief systems, as an end result of not choosing the right one you will leave an afterlife of suffering, and god will leave you alone until you conform to every established tenant presented.

Choices:
A) Pick the right one and don't die.

B) Pick the wrong one, from the multitied of "truths" and saviors and die.

C) Try to appease all gods at once, thereby pissing some of them off for attempting to please more then the one "true god"

D) give up... and think for yourself, and be motivated to do what is right as a thing to do, and not as a mandate from heaven.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/09/05 06:23 PM)

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Re: god proof [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3894214 -

pascal's wager...

it's still CYA to me...


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894277 -

GOD....  There is only one....  There are different churches with perhaps different rules, but for the most part, there is only one GOD that they pray too....  You do NOT need church to find GOD, that is where you go to celebrate with people once you do find him - if you so choose....  For once you do find Truth, you will WANT to go out and talk, listen and share with people about what you have learned.... 

And yes, before I prooved it to myself, there was no way anyone could prove it to me....  As I have learned thru my search, that you must prove it to yourself to truly believe....    I have been shown in quite miraculous ways beyond ANY words that would prove to any other, but once you do find GOD, you will KNOW, and you will know Truth, Love, an unspoken Joy, and an inner Peace that is just beyond words....  Nothing more needs to be proven....  It just is....  You will find the "secret" to your own happiness....  GOD will give you the strength and meaning that everyone seeks in Life - free from ALL fear....  Perhaps even give you a direction in life that you had not already seen....  :wink:  :heart:


You want proof....?  Do you REALLY want proof to finding Truth and endless Love....?  If you do, there is something I did to find GOD on my own, and it was very very simple....  I did it on my own without being told to do so....  I am assuming that it will also work for others....  I guess there is only one way to find out....!?  Repeat these words OUT LOUD when ever you CHOOSE to find the proof you need to believe for yourself....:


"PLEASE GOD, if you do exist, give me the help of your guiding hands for me to find the proof of your existance...."


Painless, as there does not need to be suffering - not when you find the Truth....  Then all I got to say is "Watch for the signs"....  Not as if you will be able to ignore them, but just saying....  :smile:    You will get your proof - if you are truly seeking to find out if GOD exists, he will help anyone trying to find him....  I had already lived in a "positive" light towards others when I did seek proof for the existance of GOD, perhaps this is also needed....  For if you are not pure in your intentions, I dunno~ if you will get, or be able to see the proof you need to put it all together....  :shrug:

The only way that I can proove any of my words is with my intentions....  I am not writing this for me....  :heart:


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3894444 -

I think Bill Hicks says it best again here: " so basically....question God's infinite love and eternal suffering awaits you?"

If there is a God up there who is petty enough to want my approval, attention, or worship then screw him/her/it. What does it matter if I believe in God or not? If I go to "hell" for not saying "yes emporer, those are great clothes you have on", then that is where i want to be. i wouldnt want anything to do with heaven then.

The way I see it, satan (or whatever) has only attempted to steer man into furthering himself without God as a crutch. Here have this apple from the tree of knowledge, you and eve go have wonderful, magical sex, be merry and multiply, have fun. Then God steps in: here, have some shame, dont do this, dont do that, im only doing this out of love, this hurts me as much as it hurts you, let me drag you down so i can lift you up.

Satan is a good guy in my book, if he exists, which I doubt. Do the Hedonism Hop!

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Re: god proof [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3894666 -

psilocyberin said:
If there is a God up there who is petty enough to want my approval, attention, or worship then screw him/her/it. What does it matter if I believe in God or not? If I go to "hell" for not saying "yes emporer, those are great clothes you have on", then that is where i want to be. i wouldnt want anything to do with heaven then.


Asking for compliments about Clothing....?  :wtf:  HHhhhmmmm....    :shake:

That is the thing, you don't have to believe....  You don't even have to seek Truth....  It is all choice, just like your parents gave you when you left your parents home....  Free to do what you would like.... 

Are you happy....?    Truly happy....?    Or are you just "coasting" thru life wondering what it is all about....?    Such richness and "meaning" awaits....    I have no reason to lie, I don't get anything out of this.... 

If you truly want to "know", and you have a hard time believing the whole thing like I did, ask for help....  It is not ever demanded of anyone....  You have to WANT to find Truth....  If you let him know you are actually looking, I believe GOD will help you....    Why do I believe....?  Because I KNOW....  And now that I know, I feel like a fool for waiting so long to find what it was that I was looking for....  Truth....


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: god proof [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3894771 -

Well said psilocyberin. But I think the shame part of the god image is more a reflection of societal influences coming from competitive, power hungry, somewhat sadistic individuals who claim to speak for religious organizations.

It seems to me that most of the rules laid out in the bible and whatnot are geared towards respecting other individuals and your self. People twist everything like crazy by taking stuff out of context and narrowing their vision to individual clauses to suit their purpose.. But, anyways, I think there is a noble truth behind some of the principles that are declared in the name of god. To stay out of other people's space, to suspend judgment and violence..stuff like that is not a teaching about what god wants us to to, but actually makes us more like gods.

To have a perfectly pristine life, an existence untarnished by negative emotions...transcends the arguments. If you bask in eternal love you Feel the connection to an other, a greater radiance.

btw, I think he meant clothing in a figurative way..if god's god, then our world is his clothing.

Edited by rdnp2035 (03/09/05 08:03 PM)

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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894795 -

This is Blaise Pascal's famous "Wager".

Quote:
Let us then examine this point, and say, "God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.

Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."

Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. "That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. It is all divided; where-ever the infinite is and there is not an infinity of chances of loss against that of gain, there is no time to hesitate, you must give all. And thus, when one is forced to play, he must renounce reason to preserve his life, rather than risk it for infinite gain, as likely to happen as the loss of nothingness.

-- Blaise Pascal, Pensees #233


http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PascalsWager


It's not a proof for the existence of God so much as it is a reason to "will to believe" (William James).

This online encyclopedia has arguments for and against the wager, including the objection about more than one religion/god. Some may find it interesting.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pasc-wag.htm

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Re: god proof [Re: rdnp2035]
    #3894835 -

Just for those who do want to hear my words, I have NEVER read ANY of the Bible, nor do I go to an any organized religions or churches.... 

However, I DO have a close friend that knows the Bible very well, and without any intentions, he answers the questions I have asked of him about the Bible....  My intentions were of finding Truth....  I had no other intentions....    An observer, if you will....

And Radiance is a pretty good way to describe the feelings....    Something of a PURE nature....  Something beyond words....  As I found yesterday, it becomes a simple thing to make someone cry out of Joy, just by sharing Truth with them....    It is effortless, and without intent....


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894906 -

No chart will prove the exixtance of god.



EVER






Most all religions believe in god...but you dont have to be religious to believe in god.

I think all religions have a piece of the truth, not the whole truth. No one religion has it right.

Look at some of the "native" (tribal people from all continents) religious belief systems. Their systems were somewhat similar in their POV. Just like many of the religions of tody have pretty much the same core principles.



IMO the idea of an Omnipotent, All Knowing, All Seeing, All Powerfull GOD to be somewhat barbaric.

I DO believe in a higher level of conscience tho. I see/feel Its presence in my life from time to time.

I think that the "religious" people of earth are comforatble with the idea of an "Omnipotent God".

The idea of a God that is not "All Powerfull" is somewhat unsettling.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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Re: god proof [Re: niteowl]
    #3894949 -

I would think that a GOD that is only there from "time to time" would be more unsettling....    But, I guess the constant barbaric'ism tearing up my heart will be the price I have to pay....  :heartpump: :sun:

Silly me....!  :lol:

Individual choice is a wonderful thing.... 

ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3895006 -

Pantheism.
the word pantheism derives from the Greek words 'pan' (='all')
and 'theos' (='god'). Thus, pantheism means 'All is God'. In essence, pantheism holds that the universe as a whole is divine, and that there is no divinity other than the universe and nature.


--------------------
If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.

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Re: god proof [Re: WildRunner]
    #3895076 -

Look up the word "Universe"....  Then break down the word....  Find the meaning of those words....   
Or, I did it for ya~, just click here....    :wink:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3854560#Post3854560

Pretty amazing what one can find in a "little" word....  UNIVERSE....!


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3897987 -

A god that punishes people with hell does not deserve to be be believed at.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: god proof [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3899431 -

It is not of the "light" that punishes....  There is light and darkness, and hell is not on the light side....  People seem to forget that very fact, and seem to blame GOD for everything that is wrong, weather they believe or not....  You are not being punished by GOD when you go to hell, you are living with the concequenses of your free CHOICES....  Just as one would go to jail for CHOOSING to, and getting caught breaking the law of the land....   

Last night seemed to be of my purpose to tell others how I did find the Truth....  I had not known what I would find when i started my search, but I was open to whatever I found or was shown to me....  I am an observer by nature....  It is my way....  All of those rage filled threads I made in my search were for a purpose....  I don't doubt that at all now....  I made a lot of mistakes in my search, kinda~ taking a lot of things out of context, and I was shown by all what I was wrong in....  I asked many many questions, asked of the then *seemingly* contradictions I had seen on the surface, and the good people around me corrected me and my mistakes.... 

In the end, I found what I almost did not expect to find....  I am truly greatful for that, as it has changed my life so much....  I didn't have anything in my life to be as "bad", but my finding Truth has miraculously changed it for SO much in the betterment of my self.... 

Religion is a very touchy thing for people, as it is very personal, and it is of one's belief in something that one cannot show to others with proof....  Well sort of, Not in physical proof anyways.... 

I have offered my reasons, and the way I had found to work for me....  Some people are very much like I was, not knowing of anything to exist....  I wanted to present to those people a way that I found to work for me, to help me find that Truth....  As MANY MANY people have shared with me, I feel I must now share what I KNOW with everyone....    It  would be a terrible unjust to not share this wonderful joy that has been shared upon me....   

I posted so much last night....    Something was driving me, and now that feeling is calm tonight....  I wish people could just step in my shoes for a moment and see life thru my eyes....  In how I see things now....  Such beauty that is this world, and the life that is all around me....    I never have been able to see such things with clarity like this before....  There is a beauty within that itself....  It is of the devine....  Nothing words can describe....  And it was literally a flick of a switch....  There is just NO WAY that it is just my imagination....  I never spoke like this ever in my life....  And now it is effortless and with meaning that I speak.... 

I hope the faith that you have decided to believe in, if you do, has brought you the happiness that I have found....  It is of a fearlessness joy and happiness that I have never felt before....    And it has not changed since the moment it happened....  It is of God.... 

I used to take Xanax to help me with anxiety....  There is no need for that anymore....  I would only smile when in the comapny of friends when we were telling jokes, now I smile all of the time....  With this fearlessness has brought a new confidence within myself that I never had before....  And such clarity of thought as to see the truth in an answer, or a question that I have never seen before.... 

A complete and understandment of myself, and aslo within others....  This is not just a delusional fluke, how could SO much positive change happen from just a "realization"....?  All I did was let the doubt go that GOD existed, and it all just changed....  EVERYTHING changed....  And now my life is beautiful....  As I see the beauty in all around me....  A beauty that was there all along, I had just not been able to see....  And was not ANYTHING that I could have dreamt to having expected or foreseen.... 

Yeah, something like all of that, times about 100....  That is why I speak with such passion about it....  Such conviction....  As I have no doubts in my words....  I feel more like my words are guiding me than I am guiding them....  Sound strange....?   

Now I am VERY interested in exploring my new found friend, and I was a fool to not have made my search much sooner....  But for this gift, I share of others wishing to find Truth, like I have definately found....  I seeked an answer, and I found GOD....  With intents of having an open heart, open mind, and open ears....  Nothing more, nothing less.... 

Can you ask your GOD of help....?    Are you truly happy, and see life and everything about it as beautiful....?    Do you live seeing the negative and perpetuating it....?    Do you complain about stuff, and get frustrated easily....?  If not, or even if so, what harm would there be in seeking the truth for yourself....?    It seemed to be petty simple just to ask for help, not knowing in a million years that my plee would lead me in the right direction....  So I will share my way of finding Truth again....








You want proof....?  Do you REALLY want proof to finding Truth and endless Love....?  If you do, there is something I did to find GOD on my own, and it was very very simple....  I did it on my own without being told to do so....  I am assuming that it will also work for others....  I guess there is only one way to find out....!?  Repeat these words OUT LOUD when ever you CHOOSE to find the proof you need to believe for yourself....:


"PLEASE GOD, if you do exist, give me the help of your guiding hands for me to find the proof of your existance...."


The only way that I can proove any of my words is with my intentions....  As again, I am not writing this for me....  :heart:


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<

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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3899534 -

PhanTomCat,

Please excuse me for being a little blunt and to the point here. I have read your posts and am happy that you have found your "TRUTH" but they seem to come across as if you need a validation of your belief. You need proof that you are right in your believes as if to justify the way you feel about god. You do not need a justification, proof, or validation of your beliefs. You need only accept that what has happened in your life is for you. Each person has there paths to follow and each learns of there truth in due time. Proselytizing and preaching does not hurry them along or put them on "The right Path".


--------------------
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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3899619 -

that is a different god you are talking about, not the one I was refering to in my post


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: god proof [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3899688 -

"When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow."

-Anais Nin

How about making up a god instead of using everyone else's? :lol:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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