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OfflineMad_Buhdda_Abuser
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Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!!
    #3047922 - 08/25/04 11:27 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

hiyoh

Here it is, St. Thomas Aquinas 5 easy ways that knowing god exists!!!

First Way: The Argument From Motion
St. Thomas Aquinas, studying the works of the Greek philsopher Aristotle, concluded from common observation that an object that is in motion (e.g. the planets, a rolling stone) is put in motion by some other object or force. From this, Aquinas believes that ultimately there must have been an UNMOVED MOVER (GOD) who first put things in motion. Follow the agrument this way:
1) Nothing can move itself.
2) If every object in motion had a mover, then the first object in motion needed a mover.
3) This first mover is the Unmoved Mover, called God.


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Second Way: Causation Of Existence
This Way deals with the issue of existence. Aquinas concluded that common sense observation tells us that no object creates itself. In other words, some previous object had to create it. Aquinas believed that ultimately there must have been an UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE (GOD) who began the chain of existence for all things. Follow the agrument this way:
1) There exists things that are caused (created) by other things.
2) Nothing can be the cause of itself (nothing can create itself.)
3) There can not be an endless string of objects causing other objects to exist.
4) Therefore, ther must be an uncaused first cause called God.


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Third Way: Contingent and Neccessary Objects
This Way defines two types of objects in the universe: contingent beings and necessary beings. A contingent being is an object that can not exist without a necessary being causing its existence. Aquinas believed that the existence of contingent beings would ultimately neccesitate a being which must exist for all of the contingent beings to exist. This being, called a necessary being, is what we call God. Follow the argument this way:
1) Contingent beings are caused.
2) Not every being can be contingent.
3) There must exist a being which is necessary to cause contingent beings.
4) This necessary being is God.


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Fourth Way: The Agrument From Degrees And Perfection
St. Thomas formulated this Way from a very interesting observation about the qualities of things. For example one may say that of two marble scultures one is more beautiful than the other. So for these two objects, one has a greater degree of beauty than the next. This is referred to as degrees or gradation of a quality. From this fact Aquinas concluded that for any given quality (e.g. goodness, beauty, knowledge) there must be an perfect standard by which all such qualities are measured. These perfections are contained in God.


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Fifth Way: The Agrument From Intelligent Design
The final Way that St. Thomas Aquinas speaks of has to do with the observable universe and the order of nature. Aquinas states that common sense tells us that the universe works in such a way, that one can conclude that is was designed by an intelligent designer, God. In other words, all physical laws and the order of nature and life were designed and ordered by God, the intellgent designer.
A more complete explanation of St. Thomas' Fifth Way about God as Intelligent Designer can be seen on my web page dedicated to Paley's Teleological Argument.


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I know people are going to have a field day witht his one

hahah whats hypocrites some christians are!!!!

PEACE :mushroom2:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3047969 - 08/25/04 11:49 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

1, 2 and 3 are really variations on the same argument - that the universe needs a cause to exist.

None of these are "proof" at all, really, although they do highlight the problem of atheism, which is the problem of how the universe could come into existence spontaneously.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3047983 - 08/25/04 11:54 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

These are all closed views of the universe. Not really proof at all, in fact my views differ greatly and were not scratched by this.

Sure in a linear system of cause and effect, there would have to be an initial cause. But the initial cause could very well be the final effect. Of course, inital and final would be the same subjective point on this circle.

And as for beauty, the very fact that different people find beauty in different things shows a lack of objective beauty, which is the basis for #4.

Good read, but far from proof :smile:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deff]
    #3047998 - 08/25/04 11:58 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

But if the initial cause was the final effect, you'd have a closed loop of time, so the question would still remain - how did that closed loop come into existence without something to create it?


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Anonymous

Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deafpanda]
    #3048008 - 08/25/04 12:01 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The universe may not necessarily follow a linear timeframe. The concept of a 'beginning' and 'end' is purely anthropological based on our own experience of time. It's possible that the universe has always existed, but we simply can't grasp this so we try to explain it in a linear fashion.


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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deafpanda]
    #3048010 - 08/25/04 12:01 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

if a closed loop came into existence then it's not a closed loop is it?


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3048023 - 08/25/04 12:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Haha, yes :smile:. I'm glad someone sees where I'm coming from.

Creation and destruction are human concepts that often get in the way.


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OfflineMad_Buhdda_Abuser
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: ]
    #3048066 - 08/25/04 12:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly what is it that we can't grasp? You seem to talk about it like you know of something else than that of a linear universe...One proof it is linear is math, 1=1 1+1=2, linear, no?


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Anonymous

Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3048111 - 08/25/04 12:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'm just saying it's hard for us humans to think about the possibility of something having always existed, without a beginning, because our brains tend to function in a linear fashion. If you can grasp that concept without too much trouble, then more power to you.

My point was though, just because we observe the universe linearly, doesn't mean the universe necessarily operates linearly.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: ]
    #3048139 - 08/25/04 12:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I have some personal experiences which have lead be to believe 'liner quality' or 'order' along with everything else are self manifested illusions. I also very strongly believe time is not even close to linear at all. I won't go into it though cause I probably wouldn't be able to describe it well :/


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Offlineyewhew
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3048994 - 08/25/04 04:48 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I'm not going to go into why Aquinas was a mofo but here is proof God doesn't exist:

God either chose to exist or he didn't. If he chose to exist he must have existed prior to himself in order to make that decision. That is a contradication. If he didn't choose to exist then whatever is the cause for his existence is "hierarchically" above God and is separate from God. The definition of God now applies to this cause and our previous God does not exist. This cause is not God because God is defined as that which DECIDED to create the universe. The cause cannot decide and that contradiction has been explained already.
Therefore God does not exist. (The Argument from Decision - ME!)

Good luck solving this one theists among you.


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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: yewhew]
    #3049014 - 08/25/04 04:55 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

That's if you chose a definition of God similar to Christianity. I agree though, I don't believe a God like that exists at all, but rather we exist as God as a whole. Of course, this is just semantics :smile:


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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3049143 - 08/25/04 05:43 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Thats pretty bold of you to put this post in here, and I admire you for that. Its not easy for people who beleive in a god or godess to prove that this god or godess exists.
But if you really beleive that god exists, then why woulkd it matter what anyone else thinks?


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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3049234 - 08/25/04 06:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

In an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities. Why a god?


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: yewhew]
    #3049282 - 08/25/04 06:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If "God" exists, he would not be subject to time, therefore causation does not apply to him.


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Offlinen0xious
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3049347 - 08/25/04 06:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

that is not proof at all, thats proof that existance started somehow. in no way does it relate the beginning of existance to god.

if you didnt guess i havent yet fallen into the cult.


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Its only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything.


You got the gun, I got a plant. Who's the criminal?


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3049366 - 08/25/04 06:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"1)There exists things that are caused (created) by other things.

2)Nothing can be the cause of itself (nothing can create itself.)"

Right there your "god"'s exsistance disproves itself.


common dude think about these thigns, thats just dumb


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: barfightlard]
    #3049998 - 08/25/04 08:53 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

a


Edited by matt (08/31/07 08:13 PM)


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3050077 - 08/25/04 09:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I believe that god is a mass conciousness that all living things are a part of. I think that this mass conciousness has no idea where it came from, how it came about, or what the hell is going on and therefore is freaking the fuck out. I think all the religions were started by people who had an intense psychedelic experience that showed them this (I have seen it) either through meditation/fasting, drugs, or some sort of mental illness. The goal of each religion is make it stop (As life is a continious cycle of death and rebirth) and find eternal peace, quiet and bliss. Buddhists meditate, some practice celibicy, Christians believe they must follow rules to be taken to heaven, and so on with each different religion having a different idea of how to accomplish this. Nirvana, Brahma, Heaven, and so on are all different terms for escaping this cycle. When I had this experience there were all these different religious ideas being thrown a t me by various beings and i had no clue, and still have no clue which one is right. Then I was reborn, and relived my infancy. It was pretty funny actually, i would act like a baby, then wander around taking to non-existant people, and was doing various other things. Must've been hilarious to watch, good thing no one saw me.


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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3050163 - 08/25/04 09:39 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

a


Edited by matt (08/31/07 08:13 PM)


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