Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Polypropylene Grow Bags   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #3053969 - 08/26/04 03:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

According to my own beliefs when I die I will know everything there ever was, and is to know.
Do you base this on anything at all? Normally we have to study to learn, but if I commit suicide, I can bypass all the hard work, eh?

And there is no way you can prove me wrong on that.
*sigh* Yet another member showing ignorance about proving a negative. Tren, how about a sticky on this oft-repeated fallacy?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3054795 - 08/26/04 06:27 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

This does not prove anything in my opinion..

Taking all of that into account, it doesn't change "The God Argument" one bit.

Bob: "The universe exists, so God must."
Ted: "Umm not necessarily.. where's your proof?"
Bob: "Right in front of you... you're breathing aren't you?"
Ted: "Yup. I'm breathing."
Bob: "Well there you have it."
Ted: "Dammit Bob!"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZenGecko
enthusiast
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 285
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: yewhew]
    #3057943 - 08/27/04 12:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It seems u have missed my point. Given his definition of god, his proof is logically constant, as is mine and my definition, they may not be adequate to prove the existance of your idea of god...but hey thats your problem. To attack either arguement for god u have to find fault with one or more of the premises, and give adequate proof for why it is flawed, ofcourse there is where some subjectivity may come into play, your adequate proof, might not be adequate at all in my mind or someone elses mind. Ofcourse the rules of logic are designed to prevent that assuming both proponets adhere to them. But unfortunately people can rationalize just about anything regardless of how irrational it may be to others and still believe they are adhering to the rules. You can disagree with a premise but if you cant disprove it then u dont have a true counter arguement just a contradictory opinion.

In my definition i simply define god as the creator. I dont specify a mode of creation nor do i need to. My point isnt to explain how god created. i define god as the creator, if this is all created by itself or by something else then either it, or that something else meets my definition for god. The evidence for this being created is that it is here, it doesnt matter if its a dream, computer simulation, or "real". it is here in some form, and we are here in some form. So if you wish to prove my argument isnt logically constant then u have to prove that we are not here, that none of this is here, but how can that be, if we are even having this dicussion? That is the question you have to answer. If you cant, then u simply have a contrary opinion, not a logical counter arguement.

The only other way to attack the arguement is to call into question the validity of logic, and how do we really ever know anything at all. but even if u make that arguement the implications of it are self defeating because if its correct, you can never know its correct for certain, so we are still left at any given moment with our best guess, the closest approximation to the truth we can reason out logically. All we ever have is a close approximation of the truth, and given those definitions of god, and the reasons stated why god must exist we have arrived at as close to a definative proof as we can ever get to(given those premises and definitions).

Ofcourse as previously stated your definition may be different so some of my premises may not hold true, but they shouldnt be expected to since your basically changing the rules in the middle of the game, or playing an entirely different game.

My whole point was being able to logically prove gods existance is greatly contingent on how you define God. I was not saying that me or aquinas have the definitive answer for all of man kind, but we do have the anwswer for those who except our definition and can find no flaw in our premises.

Most people ascribe all kinds of attributes to god with out a clear understanding of what implications those attributes will have on the nature of god, or with out a clear understanding of the very concept of the attribute in question, or they have no logical reason for assuming god has this or that particualar quality...and finally most people just view god in whatever way they like best. Rarely do they fully consider the implications such beliefs if true would have on the nature of god, and gods creation. Most people are to afraid to simply admit they dont know, so they make up whatever sounds good and whatever they can live with as not being to wacko.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNorthernsoul
Your Reality

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
Loc: Inner Eye
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Zahid]
    #3058152 - 08/27/04 12:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Why do you say that?

It's a fancy comment and all but where's the merit.




Why make it more complicated than it actually is?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNorthernsoul
Your Reality

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
Loc: Inner Eye
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Swami]
    #3058173 - 08/27/04 12:50 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

God has spoken to me and I have planned out the rest of my life in his name.
Swami: What does that mean?

Guess that means he can make his own choices. As he, who are we to contradict or question?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNorthernsoul
Your Reality

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
Loc: Inner Eye
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Swami]
    #3058188 - 08/27/04 12:53 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Mattsdope: According to my own beliefs when I die I will know everything there ever was, and is to know.

Swami: Do you base this on anything at all? Normally we have to study to learn, but if I commit suicide, I can bypass all the hard work, eh?

The less you work at trying to know, the more you will know.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3059013 - 08/27/04 04:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The less you work at trying to know, the more you will know.

The less you workout, the stronger and fitter you will become.  :rolleyes:


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDeMeTer
Stranger
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5
Loc: bubbling beaker of the co...
Last seen: 17 years, 10 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3059928 - 08/27/04 09:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

come on....this discussion is probably one of the oldest on earth.
atheism vs. theism...
the truth is the only tool we have to flail this complex mystery we call reality, is logic. And through logic the only solid conclusion is agnosticism. that is to adopt a position that recognizes there is not enough information to determine wether God exists or not.
unfortunately, logic is the result of adaptation of a single life form of one little planet at the edge of one galaxy...I think there?s no reason why the whole universe should respect logic, being this such an anthropomorphic concept.

check out "Dear theologian, by Dan Barker" at the spirituality section of bluehoney.org

_____________________________________________________________________
"All I know is I know nothing"
-Socrates-

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Anonymous

Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3062159 - 08/28/04 01:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineZahid
Stranger
Registered: 01/21/02
Posts: 4,779
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: ]
    #3062175 - 08/28/04 02:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The Infidel Guy? C'mon...


--------------------

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineDroz
Love of Life
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/15/00
Posts: 2,746
Loc: Floorida
Last seen: 8 years, 10 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Zahid]
    #3062322 - 08/28/04 03:08 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

God is a large confused entity. We must show God the way. We must show God how to understand his own path. God exists as a multidimensional entity. One that is always last, but is always first at the same time. God exists in everything as everything. Only way to best describe him/her/ or even better this transient being that loves/hates/ but yet still doesn't do either.


--------------------
Evolution of Time.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNorthernsoul
Your Reality

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
Loc: Inner Eye
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Swami]
    #3065574 - 08/29/04 03:00 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The less you work at trying to know, the more you will know.

The less you workout, the stronger and fitter you will become.  :rolleyes:




And then there are apples that get compared to oranges :rolleyes:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetheaquaman54
malfunkchunn

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 65
Last seen: 8 months, 23 days
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3066878 - 08/29/04 09:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"In order for God to Exist, he has had to not exist first."

This would be true if the same principle did not apply to time. I think it does.

Because of the dualistic nature of our universe. "if nothing exists, then something exists". Meaning that the only way for nothing to exist would be for its opposite to also exist.

Since time would also be subject to the statement it leads me to believe that creation never occured. It simply is, and that there was no creator.

This forms my view of the nature of "God" (for lack of a better word). God simply is. If my statement (about the dualistic nature of our universe) is true god is not the creator. Which would be separate from existance. I reason that God is existance. I will define existence as everything in it's entirety(matter, space, time, energy, etc.). Furthermore I am part of the universe and I have conciousness. I believe that the entire universe is mirrored in all of its smaller pieces.Therefore I think that existence probably has conciousness as a whole. I define the whole conciousness as "God". Although I would prefer to use a different word.



--------------------
theaquaman


The Reply-To Feature.

Edited by theaquaman54 (08/29/04 10:13 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineOOISI
Suburbanaut
I'm a teapot User Gallery

Registered: 03/21/04
Posts: 2,413
Loc: SA
Last seen: 8 hours, 14 minutes
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: theaquaman54]
    #3067988 - 08/30/04 04:16 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

i said it once and ill say it again.

God is the causless cause that caused all causes.

Tell me what it is the one thing that wasnt caused, that just was ... nothing , emptiness, silence whatever youd like to call it, God is what it is.

The universe and the self is the plane where you dabble, and try to accomplish things for gain whether it be for you or others, the great spirit is the animator of the universe and the self, the great spirit is the person the silent witness, the person (silent witness) is the last thing there is except nothingness. Nothingness is absolutely perfectness in itself.

What came first the infinite or nothingness? When i tell people this they are often scared, thinking that Lord, the God of all, the Holy ruler of all, is in fact nothing, keeping silent at all times, human nature is curiosity so they ask God what is it that he has that we dont have. We ask god a question, his answer is always perfect, his answer is with everything he has his answer is himself utterly, absolutely and completely, nothing. For if he gave us all we wanted would there be any satisfaction attained? You feel spoilt and greedy if everythings given, but if you attain through pain and heart ache and hard times, satisfaction is aquired.

We know nothing for there is nothing to know, except ourselves and that is all we can know, but tell me what are we? We are humans but what are humans? manifested beings aware of their consiousness, alterers of their surroundings who are granted a great gift which only worthy animals have, a superior mind. But how do we become aware of all, awakened supremely? through the emotion of silence, the emotion of nothing.

Let me tell you a personal beleif i have about emotions, Emotions are gods they can rule any being if the being abuses the god, the god will punish them ( the emotion). Emotions are well known by everyone just like the Lord. But no one really can comprehend them to their fullest level of comprehension as they rule over us. Unless we master our mind, unless we know our power, unless we know how the emotions,actions and thoughts affect us. Knowing all is knowing nothing, knowing nothing is knowing all.

I have this theory about existing things having an exact reflection just opposite, but thats off topic (if someone wants i can post it, but its different to any theory out there so ill probably be blasted with criticism) anyway, there is no such thing as proof, it is up to you to beleive in something, and if you beleive something you cant enforce that/those beleif/s onto others unless they can relate to it.

Life is a movie full of mystery, anxiousness et cetra and keeps you guessing all the way through then when you reach the end, you say "damn that was so obvious why didnt i think of it!". God is the one watching. The meaning of life to me is "to be." Being has two sides good and bad and both are as good and bas as each other. Everything manifest "living" has two sides and a center. Or as i like to say everything manifest has "a reflection, the reflection on the other side and the mirror"

I do not condone nor condemn taking this for personal beleif, your choice. And having a choice is a win-win situation, of course humans want to have what they cant, both choices thinking this way creates a lose-lose situation.

Also God doesnt condone nor condemn anything, God doesnt care which you choose, which you abuse what you do, what you say, what you think, who you fuck or what drugs you take, whether it be all or none. God allows you to choose for yourself and that is such a great gift showing how much God loves us, giving us a movie of our own which we choose how it goes, does this not show a sign of compassion from whatever granted us to be a sign of affection?

Kind regards, Only One In Search of Infinity.
AUM ... and the Expansion of Infinite Consiousness.


--------------------
Subaeruginosa Guide

Bless the Lord, O my soul O my soul Worship His holy name.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Finally! Proof of Gods NON-Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3068375 - 08/30/04 08:47 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The Babel fish is small, yellow, leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received from those around it. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them.

The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear, you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the NON-existence of God.

The argument goes like this:

`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore you don't. QED.'

`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Meanwhile, the Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.

... according to Douglas Adams. :cthulhu:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 1 month
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: OOISI]
    #3068785 - 08/30/04 11:17 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"God is the causless cause that caused all causes."

tell that to preachers of every different religion and see what kinds of responses you get.

I have a feeling that no matter which kind of "believer" you approached with that definition, they would all probably agree with you.

So uhh what's all the confusion about then? oh yeah religions want to control people, so while they ALL might tell you that "god is the cause of yadda blah blah" then they will tell you THEIR rules, not "god's" rules... "and uhh if you want to be one with god you must rape donkeys. yes; rape donkeys... Go forth yee on a holy donkey-fucking quest, for yee shall be one with God thereafter." or they will tell you "tell me everything you ever do that is wrong so i can whack off in my little cubicle... oh and if you don't tell me what you've done, you will burn for all eternity, which really really sucks. oh yeah and mankind is doomed regardless so sin away!!"


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineNorthernsoul
Your Reality

Registered: 11/17/01
Posts: 2,290
Loc: Inner Eye
Last seen: 13 years, 6 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: theaquaman54]
    #3070518 - 08/30/04 06:37 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

theaquaman54 said:
"In order for God to Exist, he has had to not exist first."

This would be true if the same principle did not apply to time. I think it does.

Because of the dualistic nature of our universe. "if nothing exists, then something exists". Meaning that the only way for nothing to exist would be for its opposite to also exist.

Since time would also be subject to the statement it leads me to believe that creation never occured. It simply is, and that there was no creator.

This forms my view of the nature of "God" (for lack of a better word). God simply is. If my statement (about the dualistic nature of our universe) is true god is not the creator. Which would be separate from existance. I reason that God is existance. I will define existence as everything in it's entirety(matter, space, time, energy, etc.). Furthermore I am part of the universe and I have conciousness. I believe that the entire universe is mirrored in all of its smaller pieces.Therefore I think that existence probably has conciousness as a whole. I define the whole conciousness as "God". Although I would prefer to use a different word.








Good point aquaman54. I really like that outlook. Would you also say that the interconnectedness of everything, too, is god?
We are so used to just "I" ... "Me" ..."Them"....."It"..and dont always see everything as a whole, and as one. Dont you think that this whole , or one as being what we see as"God?" A God that is more powerful and real than anything conceptual? Such as the ego, as "I"..."Them"..."It"...etc. This God is "Above me, above all" is what many say. And this is true, because everything seen as a whole, the whole world, is above any single one of us. Any single person. Know what I'm trying to say?


--------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------

When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
And I'll be gone



Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetheaquaman54
malfunkchunn

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 65
Last seen: 8 months, 23 days
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3071408 - 08/30/04 09:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Northernsoul
I think I may have gotten into this type of conversation with one too many people who don't understand my take on the situation. In those instances when I confess that I believe in "God" the person I am debating with just assumes that I believe in the exact same thing that they do. So I have wished that I had a different word to call "God". However I do believe that the word "God" is the perfect word for what I am describing.

Yes! I would also say that the interconnectedness of everything is God. That idea takes my definition to the next level. Thank you for pointing it out.


--------------------
theaquaman


The Reply-To Feature.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineEkstaza
stranger than most
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/10/03
Posts: 4,324
Loc: Around the corner
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3071613 - 08/30/04 10:50 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

God = a word

A word has meaning through interpretation.

Therefore I conclude that God is what you view the word to be.

I see it as just two consonants surrounding a vowel.

Your interpretation can be very diferent from mine.

So can the next guys'.


--------------------
YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinetheaquaman54
malfunkchunn

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 65
Last seen: 8 months, 23 days
Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Ekstaza]
    #3071766 - 08/30/04 11:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Wow your point was just proven quite well in the  Independent Truth threadhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...;o=&fpart=1

Were all right.  :wink:


--------------------
theaquaman


The Reply-To Feature.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: OlympusMyco.com Olympus Myco Polypropylene Grow Bags   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Dose God exist? Take a look around.
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Bavet 7,019 68 02/06/03 10:46 AM
by Strumpling
* God Exists
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )
Zahid 11,835 113 03/18/03 03:57 PM
by falcon
* Does God Exist? part one
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )
MentalHygene 16,059 126 02/22/02 08:26 PM
by ArCh_TemPlaR
* Does God Exist? (lets get to the point!) MentalHygene 1,143 12 02/08/02 10:19 AM
by Seuss
* it seems therefore, that God does not exist. whiterastahippie 1,793 12 11/11/11 02:01 AM
by thefloodbehind
* Don't believe in God?Shouldn't you have an answer?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 all )
World Spirit 14,326 176 01/22/03 09:14 AM
by World Spirit
* Death & Time don't exist. Where God comes from...
( 1 2 3 4 all )
Shroomalicious 9,248 69 12/18/02 06:30 PM
by Strumpling
* Burden of Proof
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
Sclorch 7,929 81 01/16/03 05:22 PM
by Sclorch

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
8,007 topic views. 4 members, 6 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.03 seconds spending 0.009 seconds on 15 queries.