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OfflineMad_Buhdda_Abuser
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Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!!
    #3047922 - 08/25/04 09:27 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

hiyoh

Here it is, St. Thomas Aquinas 5 easy ways that knowing god exists!!!

First Way: The Argument From Motion
St. Thomas Aquinas, studying the works of the Greek philsopher Aristotle, concluded from common observation that an object that is in motion (e.g. the planets, a rolling stone) is put in motion by some other object or force. From this, Aquinas believes that ultimately there must have been an UNMOVED MOVER (GOD) who first put things in motion. Follow the agrument this way:
1) Nothing can move itself.
2) If every object in motion had a mover, then the first object in motion needed a mover.
3) This first mover is the Unmoved Mover, called God.


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Second Way: Causation Of Existence
This Way deals with the issue of existence. Aquinas concluded that common sense observation tells us that no object creates itself. In other words, some previous object had to create it. Aquinas believed that ultimately there must have been an UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE (GOD) who began the chain of existence for all things. Follow the agrument this way:
1) There exists things that are caused (created) by other things.
2) Nothing can be the cause of itself (nothing can create itself.)
3) There can not be an endless string of objects causing other objects to exist.
4) Therefore, ther must be an uncaused first cause called God.


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Third Way: Contingent and Neccessary Objects
This Way defines two types of objects in the universe: contingent beings and necessary beings. A contingent being is an object that can not exist without a necessary being causing its existence. Aquinas believed that the existence of contingent beings would ultimately neccesitate a being which must exist for all of the contingent beings to exist. This being, called a necessary being, is what we call God. Follow the argument this way:
1) Contingent beings are caused.
2) Not every being can be contingent.
3) There must exist a being which is necessary to cause contingent beings.
4) This necessary being is God.


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Fourth Way: The Agrument From Degrees And Perfection
St. Thomas formulated this Way from a very interesting observation about the qualities of things. For example one may say that of two marble scultures one is more beautiful than the other. So for these two objects, one has a greater degree of beauty than the next. This is referred to as degrees or gradation of a quality. From this fact Aquinas concluded that for any given quality (e.g. goodness, beauty, knowledge) there must be an perfect standard by which all such qualities are measured. These perfections are contained in God.


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Fifth Way: The Agrument From Intelligent Design
The final Way that St. Thomas Aquinas speaks of has to do with the observable universe and the order of nature. Aquinas states that common sense tells us that the universe works in such a way, that one can conclude that is was designed by an intelligent designer, God. In other words, all physical laws and the order of nature and life were designed and ordered by God, the intellgent designer.
A more complete explanation of St. Thomas' Fifth Way about God as Intelligent Designer can be seen on my web page dedicated to Paley's Teleological Argument.


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I know people are going to have a field day witht his one

hahah whats hypocrites some christians are!!!!

PEACE :mushroom2:

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3047969 - 08/25/04 09:49 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

1, 2 and 3 are really variations on the same argument - that the universe needs a cause to exist.

None of these are "proof" at all, really, although they do highlight the problem of atheism, which is the problem of how the universe could come into existence spontaneously.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3047983 - 08/25/04 09:54 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

These are all closed views of the universe. Not really proof at all, in fact my views differ greatly and were not scratched by this.

Sure in a linear system of cause and effect, there would have to be an initial cause. But the initial cause could very well be the final effect. Of course, inital and final would be the same subjective point on this circle.

And as for beauty, the very fact that different people find beauty in different things shows a lack of objective beauty, which is the basis for #4.

Good read, but far from proof :smile:


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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deff]
    #3047998 - 08/25/04 09:58 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

But if the initial cause was the final effect, you'd have a closed loop of time, so the question would still remain - how did that closed loop come into existence without something to create it?

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Anonymous

Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deafpanda]
    #3048008 - 08/25/04 10:01 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The universe may not necessarily follow a linear timeframe. The concept of a 'beginning' and 'end' is purely anthropological based on our own experience of time. It's possible that the universe has always existed, but we simply can't grasp this so we try to explain it in a linear fashion.

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OfflineMixomatosis
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deafpanda]
    #3048010 - 08/25/04 10:01 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

if a closed loop came into existence then it's not a closed loop is it?

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mixomatosis]
    #3048023 - 08/25/04 10:07 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Haha, yes :smile:. I'm glad someone sees where I'm coming from.

Creation and destruction are human concepts that often get in the way.


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OfflineMad_Buhdda_Abuser
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: ]
    #3048066 - 08/25/04 10:21 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Exactly what is it that we can't grasp? You seem to talk about it like you know of something else than that of a linear universe...One proof it is linear is math, 1=1 1+1=2, linear, no?

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Anonymous

Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3048111 - 08/25/04 10:36 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm just saying it's hard for us humans to think about the possibility of something having always existed, without a beginning, because our brains tend to function in a linear fashion. If you can grasp that concept without too much trouble, then more power to you.

My point was though, just because we observe the universe linearly, doesn't mean the universe necessarily operates linearly.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: ]
    #3048139 - 08/25/04 10:45 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I have some personal experiences which have lead be to believe 'liner quality' or 'order' along with everything else are self manifested illusions. I also very strongly believe time is not even close to linear at all. I won't go into it though cause I probably wouldn't be able to describe it well :/


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Offlineyewhew
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3048994 - 08/25/04 02:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not going to go into why Aquinas was a mofo but here is proof God doesn't exist:

God either chose to exist or he didn't. If he chose to exist he must have existed prior to himself in order to make that decision. That is a contradication. If he didn't choose to exist then whatever is the cause for his existence is "hierarchically" above God and is separate from God. The definition of God now applies to this cause and our previous God does not exist. This cause is not God because God is defined as that which DECIDED to create the universe. The cause cannot decide and that contradiction has been explained already.
Therefore God does not exist. (The Argument from Decision - ME!)

Good luck solving this one theists among you.


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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: yewhew]
    #3049014 - 08/25/04 02:55 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

That's if you chose a definition of God similar to Christianity. I agree though, I don't believe a God like that exists at all, but rather we exist as God as a whole. Of course, this is just semantics :smile:


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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3049143 - 08/25/04 03:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Thats pretty bold of you to put this post in here, and I admire you for that. Its not easy for people who beleive in a god or godess to prove that this god or godess exists.
But if you really beleive that god exists, then why woulkd it matter what anyone else thinks?

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OfflineScarfmeister
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3049234 - 08/25/04 04:07 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

In an infinite universe there are infinite possibilities. Why a god?


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We're the lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth!

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: yewhew]
    #3049282 - 08/25/04 04:19 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

If "God" exists, he would not be subject to time, therefore causation does not apply to him.

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Offlinen0xious
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3049347 - 08/25/04 04:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

that is not proof at all, thats proof that existance started somehow. in no way does it relate the beginning of existance to god.

if you didnt guess i havent yet fallen into the cult.


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Its only after you've lost everything that you're free to do anything.


You got the gun, I got a plant. Who's the criminal?

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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3049366 - 08/25/04 04:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"1)There exists things that are caused (created) by other things.

2)Nothing can be the cause of itself (nothing can create itself.)"

Right there your "god"'s exsistance disproves itself.


common dude think about these thigns, thats just dumb


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"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks

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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: barfightlard]
    #3049998 - 08/25/04 06:53 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

a

Edited by matt (08/31/07 06:13 PM)

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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3050077 - 08/25/04 07:19 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I believe that god is a mass conciousness that all living things are a part of. I think that this mass conciousness has no idea where it came from, how it came about, or what the hell is going on and therefore is freaking the fuck out. I think all the religions were started by people who had an intense psychedelic experience that showed them this (I have seen it) either through meditation/fasting, drugs, or some sort of mental illness. The goal of each religion is make it stop (As life is a continious cycle of death and rebirth) and find eternal peace, quiet and bliss. Buddhists meditate, some practice celibicy, Christians believe they must follow rules to be taken to heaven, and so on with each different religion having a different idea of how to accomplish this. Nirvana, Brahma, Heaven, and so on are all different terms for escaping this cycle. When I had this experience there were all these different religious ideas being thrown a t me by various beings and i had no clue, and still have no clue which one is right. Then I was reborn, and relived my infancy. It was pretty funny actually, i would act like a baby, then wander around taking to non-existant people, and was doing various other things. Must've been hilarious to watch, good thing no one saw me.

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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3050163 - 08/25/04 07:39 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

a

Edited by matt (08/31/07 06:13 PM)

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #3050179 - 08/25/04 07:42 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

You're viewing the past all the time, in the same way. It takes light time to get to your eyes, so the computer screen in front of you is the past.

If you were a light year away from earth then you would be viewing earth a year ago, because it would take light a year to get to you.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #3050183 - 08/25/04 07:43 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Well if you could instantly teleport far out in outerspace, then yes. This is because light takes time to travel, especially from such a large distance. For example, it takes light from the sun eight minutes to reach the earth, so the sun you see each day is really the sun eight minutes ago.

But of course to get far enough away in short enough amount of time for this effect to take place, you would have to travel faster than the speed of light to begin with, with poses the question of time travel.


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InvisibleDark_Star
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #3050188 - 08/25/04 07:44 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Yes and No. I'm no sure about the telescope if we sent one out, but I know that light takes a really long time to reach far off places, so if aliens on a faraway planet got a picture or telescope view of Earth, they would see it as it was when the light first left, which could be anywhere from a few years to billions of years. Our own view of distant planets and galaxies work the same way, we see them as they were billions of years ago.


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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deff]
    #3050220 - 08/25/04 07:51 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

a

Edited by matt (08/31/07 06:13 PM)

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Offlinedeafpanda
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #3050243 - 08/25/04 07:57 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It's not that simple...

I don't really think that time travel to the future is possible, but I have a couple of books by scientists who think it might be and have devised systems that they think might work.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deafpanda]
    #3050367 - 08/25/04 08:20 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Well time travel is all theoretical right now, obviously. Theoretically it's possible to go backwards in time (assuming our laws of physics are as solid as we believe), whereas foward travel is more open to debate I believe.

I think a conscious time travel might be more possible than a mechanical one.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deafpanda]
    #3050526 - 08/25/04 08:49 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

heh

all the big questions we don't have an answer to.  and when we do answer a tiny question we jsut get more questions from it. :laugh:


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.

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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deff]
    #3050534 - 08/25/04 08:50 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Deff,

Are you familiar with the work of Dr. Robert Monroe and the Monroe Research Insitute? He has passed on now, but in the 60's he started researching conscious mind travel via frequencies piped through head phones while asleep. What gave this research validity to him and those who tried it, was that for one, any one would consistantly go to the same place and time if the same frequency tone was played. The other is that people could be separated into different rooms and go to same place and time and then upon awakening share the same stories of what they did and saw without having opportunity to coroborate.

It's my understanding, one can go to the Institute in North Carolina and give it a whirl with friends to see for themselves. You have to pay of course.

He wrote 3 mind blowing books on his Journeys into other points of time, past and future even to the year 3000 on earth and out of time, into other realms and dimensions. He shared his methodical research making it possible as well in them.

Science types will appreciate his work and find it interesting if they find the idea of conscious mind travel interesting.


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #3051123 - 08/25/04 11:08 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

There is only one answer, that you will only find in death.

? There will be no one left to find any answer.


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflinePhilanthropist
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Swami]
    #3051167 - 08/25/04 11:16 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Wow this thread makes me angry!!! Ok first off how can any of us use the word GOD when we all have different meanings for it. God is your conscience that gives you the instinct of what is ultimately right in my belief structure. God has spoken to me and I have planned out the rest of my life in his name.

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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Swami]
    #3051256 - 08/25/04 11:35 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

a

Edited by matt (08/31/07 06:12 PM)

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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3052384 - 08/26/04 07:49 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Most people invision the universe in a way that is not unlike a Cone, with a point at one end and an opening at another. You have your point of creation then the expanding of the cone from that, but currently a good deal of evidence points to other models of the universe that simply stated would look more like a cone that instead of having a sharp point at one end have a rounded end, meaning there is no DISTINCT creation moment, or more accurately that the universe is self created. Our perception of time, and what we would call the arrow of time, is an effect generated by our inability to essentially see everthing everywhere at once, to view the whole from out side of itself, since we are it, also entropy increases.

This increase in etropy is really the closest thing to actual time, beyond just the mere conception of such a thing. Its why we dont remember the future, or see broken glasses gather themself back together. In a sense creation is simply the shattering of a uniform whole. The breaking of perfection. The only thing that i can concieve of as being perfect is 1 thing, and that one thing is all there can be, or something that includes everything, the universe seems to fit both these requirements.

It is all energy, even matter is a form of energy, and the universe is all there is, also it contains everything. So even if u see things as seperate the universe contains all there is, it lacks nothing so it is perfect, because if it lacked anything (even evil) i would not be perfect. Or looking at it from the view point of oneness, everything is the same thing (energy) and energy is all there is. Also generally God is thought to be perfect, since the universe/system is the only thing that i can concieve of as being perfect, i find it likely that the system we find ourselves in is in fact God, or at the very least God set the system into motion, but then in fact god, and gods setting the system in motion is the true system, the whole system, so again u could say that the system is God.

Also proving the existance of god logically is not that hard depending on how u define god. But everyone has their own idea of what god is, so varying definitions make it in possible for one logical proof the be sufficiant for everyone.

The system clearly exists, whether as a thought, dream, or in a "real" sense, we are here (where ever that is) to dicuss it, and we are spawned from the system, and i define god as the creative and possibly maintainive force behind existance. So wether the system is self created, or created by a god outside the system, my defintion of God is logically consistant, the only arguement that can undermine it is one that proposes there is no such a thing as objective truth, because if you can prove that then you can prove that my premise that "we are here" my be flawed. But without proving that one way or other my definition and proof of god is as true as anything can be to our knowledge. So proving God's existance is hugely contigent on how you define god.

Aquinas was right given his defintion of God, and mine. But im sure his and mine are not the only definitions and there in lies the problem that devides so many.

In my mind(and by my definition) god clearly exists, the real question is what is the nature of god, what is a causeless cause like? unfortunately it seems that a great deal of the nature of god, is beyond our conception, perhaps the entire nature, for can we even truely grasp the concept of perfection accurately...wouldnt u have to know and understand everything and know you knew to be able to really grasp just that concept, forget about any other aspects of the nature of god.

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Offlineyewhew
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: ZenGecko]
    #3052695 - 08/26/04 09:45 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Aquinas was right given his defintion of God, and mine. But im sure his and mine are not the only definitions and there in lies the problem that devides so many.




How is he right? His conclusion is just as contradictory as "an infinite regression towards a beginning".  :mad2:

If you think Aquinas was right you are missing a whole lot of the point.
Aquinas along with Anselm are prime examples of primitive philosophical minds.


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Edited by yewhew (08/26/04 09:50 AM)

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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3052944 - 08/26/04 10:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

False logic, Thomas of Aquino wrote a lot of BS back in the day. Nevertheless, it takes just as much faith to believe in an uncaused cause than to believe in a universe that's been going on forever. IF the universe has been around forever, it can have no goal, because the universe having a goal would imply creation. If it hasn't been around forever, there has to be a cause to change it from whatever laws applied before its cause to the state it was in when it was created.

Another type of proof though, by Descartes. He also said everything has to have a cause, which is always hierarchically higher than the effect. For us to have the idea of that-which-is-most-perfect (God) in our heads implies that it put it there. If this entity did not exist, it would not be that-which-is-most-perfect, because an existant God would be more perfect. Hence: God exists.


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

- Aristotle

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Alan Stone]
    #3053094 - 08/26/04 11:24 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It has no goal in the human context. To us, a goal is only a desire to alter outside realities. To the universe, there is no outside reality, so the only 'goal' is self existence. This is also why there's no magical "meaning to life" rather than the here and now.


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OfflineMad_Buhdda_Abuser
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3053310 - 08/26/04 12:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I conclude God Exists!!!!! Yes now i will go out and do GOOD in the world...Hint Hint---

MBA

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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3053497 - 08/26/04 12:49 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

In order for God to Exist, he has had to not exist first.

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OfflineZahid
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3053592 - 08/26/04 01:11 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Why do you say that?

It's a fancy comment and all but where's the merit.


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OfflineAlan Stone
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3053804 - 08/26/04 02:13 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

In order for God to Exist, he has had to not exist first.




Well, if he is the alpha AND the omega, he's been around forever. Applying your logic to the universe means it must have been created (because it can't have been around forever).


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It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Philanthropist]
    #3053949 - 08/26/04 02:59 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Wow this thread makes me angry!!!
The thread does not have that kind of power. Start taking responsibility - you are making yourself angry.

Ok first off how can any of us use the word GOD when we all have different meanings for it.
First off, that is a question.

God is your conscience that gives you the instinct of what is ultimately right in my belief structure.
No, my instincts don't tell me anything about your belief structure.

God has spoken to me and I have planned out the rest of my life in his name.
What does that mean?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: THE KRAT BARON]
    #3053969 - 08/26/04 03:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

According to my own beliefs when I die I will know everything there ever was, and is to know.
Do you base this on anything at all? Normally we have to study to learn, but if I commit suicide, I can bypass all the hard work, eh?

And there is no way you can prove me wrong on that.
*sigh* Yet another member showing ignorance about proving a negative. Tren, how about a sticky on this oft-repeated fallacy?


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3054795 - 08/26/04 06:27 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

This does not prove anything in my opinion..

Taking all of that into account, it doesn't change "The God Argument" one bit.

Bob: "The universe exists, so God must."
Ted: "Umm not necessarily.. where's your proof?"
Bob: "Right in front of you... you're breathing aren't you?"
Ted: "Yup. I'm breathing."
Bob: "Well there you have it."
Ted: "Dammit Bob!"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineZenGecko
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: yewhew]
    #3057943 - 08/27/04 12:01 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

It seems u have missed my point. Given his definition of god, his proof is logically constant, as is mine and my definition, they may not be adequate to prove the existance of your idea of god...but hey thats your problem. To attack either arguement for god u have to find fault with one or more of the premises, and give adequate proof for why it is flawed, ofcourse there is where some subjectivity may come into play, your adequate proof, might not be adequate at all in my mind or someone elses mind. Ofcourse the rules of logic are designed to prevent that assuming both proponets adhere to them. But unfortunately people can rationalize just about anything regardless of how irrational it may be to others and still believe they are adhering to the rules. You can disagree with a premise but if you cant disprove it then u dont have a true counter arguement just a contradictory opinion.

In my definition i simply define god as the creator. I dont specify a mode of creation nor do i need to. My point isnt to explain how god created. i define god as the creator, if this is all created by itself or by something else then either it, or that something else meets my definition for god. The evidence for this being created is that it is here, it doesnt matter if its a dream, computer simulation, or "real". it is here in some form, and we are here in some form. So if you wish to prove my argument isnt logically constant then u have to prove that we are not here, that none of this is here, but how can that be, if we are even having this dicussion? That is the question you have to answer. If you cant, then u simply have a contrary opinion, not a logical counter arguement.

The only other way to attack the arguement is to call into question the validity of logic, and how do we really ever know anything at all. but even if u make that arguement the implications of it are self defeating because if its correct, you can never know its correct for certain, so we are still left at any given moment with our best guess, the closest approximation to the truth we can reason out logically. All we ever have is a close approximation of the truth, and given those definitions of god, and the reasons stated why god must exist we have arrived at as close to a definative proof as we can ever get to(given those premises and definitions).

Ofcourse as previously stated your definition may be different so some of my premises may not hold true, but they shouldnt be expected to since your basically changing the rules in the middle of the game, or playing an entirely different game.

My whole point was being able to logically prove gods existance is greatly contingent on how you define God. I was not saying that me or aquinas have the definitive answer for all of man kind, but we do have the anwswer for those who except our definition and can find no flaw in our premises.

Most people ascribe all kinds of attributes to god with out a clear understanding of what implications those attributes will have on the nature of god, or with out a clear understanding of the very concept of the attribute in question, or they have no logical reason for assuming god has this or that particualar quality...and finally most people just view god in whatever way they like best. Rarely do they fully consider the implications such beliefs if true would have on the nature of god, and gods creation. Most people are to afraid to simply admit they dont know, so they make up whatever sounds good and whatever they can live with as not being to wacko.

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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Zahid]
    #3058152 - 08/27/04 12:46 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Zahid said:
Why do you say that?

It's a fancy comment and all but where's the merit.




Why make it more complicated than it actually is?

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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Swami]
    #3058173 - 08/27/04 12:50 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

God has spoken to me and I have planned out the rest of my life in his name.
Swami: What does that mean?

Guess that means he can make his own choices. As he, who are we to contradict or question?

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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Swami]
    #3058188 - 08/27/04 12:53 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Mattsdope: According to my own beliefs when I die I will know everything there ever was, and is to know.

Swami: Do you base this on anything at all? Normally we have to study to learn, but if I commit suicide, I can bypass all the hard work, eh?

The less you work at trying to know, the more you will know.

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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3059013 - 08/27/04 04:45 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The less you work at trying to know, the more you will know.

The less you workout, the stronger and fitter you will become.  :rolleyes:


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The proof is in the pudding.

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OfflineDeMeTer
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3059928 - 08/27/04 09:03 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

come on....this discussion is probably one of the oldest on earth.
atheism vs. theism...
the truth is the only tool we have to flail this complex mystery we call reality, is logic. And through logic the only solid conclusion is agnosticism. that is to adopt a position that recognizes there is not enough information to determine wether God exists or not.
unfortunately, logic is the result of adaptation of a single life form of one little planet at the edge of one galaxy...I think there?s no reason why the whole universe should respect logic, being this such an anthropomorphic concept.

check out "Dear theologian, by Dan Barker" at the spirituality section of bluehoney.org

_____________________________________________________________________
"All I know is I know nothing"
-Socrates-

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Anonymous

Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3062159 - 08/28/04 01:58 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)


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OfflineZahid
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: ]
    #3062175 - 08/28/04 02:04 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The Infidel Guy? C'mon...


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OfflineDroz
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Zahid]
    #3062322 - 08/28/04 03:08 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

God is a large confused entity. We must show God the way. We must show God how to understand his own path. God exists as a multidimensional entity. One that is always last, but is always first at the same time. God exists in everything as everything. Only way to best describe him/her/ or even better this transient being that loves/hates/ but yet still doesn't do either.


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Evolution of Time.

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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Swami]
    #3065574 - 08/29/04 03:00 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
The less you work at trying to know, the more you will know.

The less you workout, the stronger and fitter you will become.  :rolleyes:




And then there are apples that get compared to oranges :rolleyes:

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Offlinetheaquaman54
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3066878 - 08/29/04 09:10 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"In order for God to Exist, he has had to not exist first."

This would be true if the same principle did not apply to time. I think it does.

Because of the dualistic nature of our universe. "if nothing exists, then something exists". Meaning that the only way for nothing to exist would be for its opposite to also exist.

Since time would also be subject to the statement it leads me to believe that creation never occured. It simply is, and that there was no creator.

This forms my view of the nature of "God" (for lack of a better word). God simply is. If my statement (about the dualistic nature of our universe) is true god is not the creator. Which would be separate from existance. I reason that God is existance. I will define existence as everything in it's entirety(matter, space, time, energy, etc.). Furthermore I am part of the universe and I have conciousness. I believe that the entire universe is mirrored in all of its smaller pieces.Therefore I think that existence probably has conciousness as a whole. I define the whole conciousness as "God". Although I would prefer to use a different word.



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theaquaman


The Reply-To Feature.

Edited by theaquaman54 (08/29/04 10:13 PM)

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OfflineOOISI
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: theaquaman54]
    #3067988 - 08/30/04 04:16 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

i said it once and ill say it again.

God is the causless cause that caused all causes.

Tell me what it is the one thing that wasnt caused, that just was ... nothing , emptiness, silence whatever youd like to call it, God is what it is.

The universe and the self is the plane where you dabble, and try to accomplish things for gain whether it be for you or others, the great spirit is the animator of the universe and the self, the great spirit is the person the silent witness, the person (silent witness) is the last thing there is except nothingness. Nothingness is absolutely perfectness in itself.

What came first the infinite or nothingness? When i tell people this they are often scared, thinking that Lord, the God of all, the Holy ruler of all, is in fact nothing, keeping silent at all times, human nature is curiosity so they ask God what is it that he has that we dont have. We ask god a question, his answer is always perfect, his answer is with everything he has his answer is himself utterly, absolutely and completely, nothing. For if he gave us all we wanted would there be any satisfaction attained? You feel spoilt and greedy if everythings given, but if you attain through pain and heart ache and hard times, satisfaction is aquired.

We know nothing for there is nothing to know, except ourselves and that is all we can know, but tell me what are we? We are humans but what are humans? manifested beings aware of their consiousness, alterers of their surroundings who are granted a great gift which only worthy animals have, a superior mind. But how do we become aware of all, awakened supremely? through the emotion of silence, the emotion of nothing.

Let me tell you a personal beleif i have about emotions, Emotions are gods they can rule any being if the being abuses the god, the god will punish them ( the emotion). Emotions are well known by everyone just like the Lord. But no one really can comprehend them to their fullest level of comprehension as they rule over us. Unless we master our mind, unless we know our power, unless we know how the emotions,actions and thoughts affect us. Knowing all is knowing nothing, knowing nothing is knowing all.

I have this theory about existing things having an exact reflection just opposite, but thats off topic (if someone wants i can post it, but its different to any theory out there so ill probably be blasted with criticism) anyway, there is no such thing as proof, it is up to you to beleive in something, and if you beleive something you cant enforce that/those beleif/s onto others unless they can relate to it.

Life is a movie full of mystery, anxiousness et cetra and keeps you guessing all the way through then when you reach the end, you say "damn that was so obvious why didnt i think of it!". God is the one watching. The meaning of life to me is "to be." Being has two sides good and bad and both are as good and bas as each other. Everything manifest "living" has two sides and a center. Or as i like to say everything manifest has "a reflection, the reflection on the other side and the mirror"

I do not condone nor condemn taking this for personal beleif, your choice. And having a choice is a win-win situation, of course humans want to have what they cant, both choices thinking this way creates a lose-lose situation.

Also God doesnt condone nor condemn anything, God doesnt care which you choose, which you abuse what you do, what you say, what you think, who you fuck or what drugs you take, whether it be all or none. God allows you to choose for yourself and that is such a great gift showing how much God loves us, giving us a movie of our own which we choose how it goes, does this not show a sign of compassion from whatever granted us to be a sign of affection?

Kind regards, Only One In Search of Infinity.
AUM ... and the Expansion of Infinite Consiousness.


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Subaeruginosa Guide

Bless the Lord, O my soul O my soul Worship His holy name.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Finally! Proof of Gods NON-Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3068375 - 08/30/04 08:47 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

The Babel fish is small, yellow, leechlike, and probably the oddest thing in the Universe. It feeds on brainwave energy received from those around it. It then excretes into the mind of its carrier a telepathic matrix formed by combining the conscious thought frequencies with nerve signals picked up from the speech centers of the brain which has supplied them.

The practical upshot of all this is that if you stick a Babel fish in your ear, you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language.

Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the NON-existence of God.

The argument goes like this:

`I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore you don't. QED.'

`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Meanwhile, the Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.

... according to Douglas Adams. :cthulhu:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: OOISI]
    #3068785 - 08/30/04 11:17 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"God is the causless cause that caused all causes."

tell that to preachers of every different religion and see what kinds of responses you get.

I have a feeling that no matter which kind of "believer" you approached with that definition, they would all probably agree with you.

So uhh what's all the confusion about then? oh yeah religions want to control people, so while they ALL might tell you that "god is the cause of yadda blah blah" then they will tell you THEIR rules, not "god's" rules... "and uhh if you want to be one with god you must rape donkeys. yes; rape donkeys... Go forth yee on a holy donkey-fucking quest, for yee shall be one with God thereafter." or they will tell you "tell me everything you ever do that is wrong so i can whack off in my little cubicle... oh and if you don't tell me what you've done, you will burn for all eternity, which really really sucks. oh yeah and mankind is doomed regardless so sin away!!"


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineNorthernsoul
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: theaquaman54]
    #3070518 - 08/30/04 06:37 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

theaquaman54 said:
"In order for God to Exist, he has had to not exist first."

This would be true if the same principle did not apply to time. I think it does.

Because of the dualistic nature of our universe. "if nothing exists, then something exists". Meaning that the only way for nothing to exist would be for its opposite to also exist.

Since time would also be subject to the statement it leads me to believe that creation never occured. It simply is, and that there was no creator.

This forms my view of the nature of "God" (for lack of a better word). God simply is. If my statement (about the dualistic nature of our universe) is true god is not the creator. Which would be separate from existance. I reason that God is existance. I will define existence as everything in it's entirety(matter, space, time, energy, etc.). Furthermore I am part of the universe and I have conciousness. I believe that the entire universe is mirrored in all of its smaller pieces.Therefore I think that existence probably has conciousness as a whole. I define the whole conciousness as "God". Although I would prefer to use a different word.








Good point aquaman54. I really like that outlook. Would you also say that the interconnectedness of everything, too, is god?
We are so used to just "I" ... "Me" ..."Them"....."It"..and dont always see everything as a whole, and as one. Dont you think that this whole , or one as being what we see as"God?" A God that is more powerful and real than anything conceptual? Such as the ego, as "I"..."Them"..."It"...etc. This God is "Above me, above all" is what many say. And this is true, because everything seen as a whole, the whole world, is above any single one of us. Any single person. Know what I'm trying to say?


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--------------------------------------------------------------

When it comes
I'll know, I know
Just take my clothes and leave
And I'll be gone



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Offlinetheaquaman54
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Northernsoul]
    #3071408 - 08/30/04 09:48 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Northernsoul
I think I may have gotten into this type of conversation with one too many people who don't understand my take on the situation. In those instances when I confess that I believe in "God" the person I am debating with just assumes that I believe in the exact same thing that they do. So I have wished that I had a different word to call "God". However I do believe that the word "God" is the perfect word for what I am describing.

Yes! I would also say that the interconnectedness of everything is God. That idea takes my definition to the next level. Thank you for pointing it out.


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theaquaman


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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3071613 - 08/30/04 10:50 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

God = a word

A word has meaning through interpretation.

Therefore I conclude that God is what you view the word to be.

I see it as just two consonants surrounding a vowel.

Your interpretation can be very diferent from mine.

So can the next guys'.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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Offlinetheaquaman54
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Ekstaza]
    #3071766 - 08/30/04 11:34 PM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Wow your point was just proven quite well in the  Independent Truth threadhttp://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat...;o=&fpart=1

Were all right.  :wink:


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theaquaman


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OfflineCrestfallen
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: theaquaman54]
    #3071977 - 08/31/04 12:30 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Hey guys. This is an intersting thread.

I was thinking of the law of physics that states "matter cannot be created nor destroyed". So, if that is as true as everyone thinks, it would support the theory that the universe has always existed. no?
So, if the Earth has the same amount of matter on it as it did, say, 2000 years ago, that same law would apply to the rest of the universe. It has always been there. I think its just the concept of infinity that again boggles the human mind. I dunno, that thought makes sense to me anyways.


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The above statement is completely fictional and composed solely for the purpose of entertainment.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Ekstaza]
    #3073205 - 08/31/04 09:43 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"Therefore I conclude that God is what you view the word to be."

ok so if everybody has wildly different ideas about the word "God" but they all say they believe in God doesn't that kind of misrepresent everybody? Because then nobody knows what anybody else actually means.

Like let's say my idea of God was pure hatred and evil, and your idea of God was the classic christian belief.

We're sitting there having coffee one day and you ask me "Isn't God wonderful?" I reply "oh God is the best!"

We're both totally contradicting eachother but since we're using the same word to describe different things you will never know I want you to burn for all eternity. I just wish people would split the word "God" into different things so people could express their beliefs with one word a bit more specifically..


but whatever.... God loves you, fuckers.


--------------------
Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineMetatrad
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Crestfallen]
    #3106578 - 09/08/04 12:11 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

Matter, light, energy, they are all perception. Neither real nor imaginary.

My conciousness is either an illusion created by biological processes in my brain, or it is the only thing that exists. I'm happy with any or all of those. I came into existence with the capacity to achieve happiness, love, and fulfillment, and I have the opportunities to attain all of those. Can't really ask for much more.

Since I cannot percieve anything outside of my touch, smell, taste, sight, hearing etc. the only God I really know lies within.

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OfflineDivided_Sky
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #3106677 - 09/08/04 12:42 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know why people make a fuss about whether 'God' exists or not. If God exists then he is everything, impersonal, infinite, incomprehensible, and mind blowing. If God does not exist everything is still everything, impersonal, infinite etc.

Some time ago I came to the conclusion that theism and atheism are almost the same thing: at some point there must be an absolute reality so astounding that human minds can't comprehend it. The Universe must have come from nothing or must always have existed. Saying that God created the Universe is no less bewildering than the atheist belief in an uncreated universe, because ultimately God must then be the causeless cause. All it does is moves everything back onestep, but the origin of everything must still exist in the same way, without cause.

I think it would be cool if some all knowing being could understand and communicate with us and look out for us, but it seems this is not the case. If God exists he acts just like he doesn't exist, and considering how insignificant the human perspective is it is no wonder that absolute truth would seem so alien and impersonal. Whether it is God or not, IT is impersonal, timeless, causeless, and cannot be rationaly understood. Seems the same to me.

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3113081 - 09/09/04 11:02 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

"If God exists then he is everything"

this is exactly what I'm talking about.....

OK if its everything then why the fuck are you calling it a "he" first of all, and why don't you just call it "everything" so people know what you're talking about? If you call it God, many people will have many different ideas about what you are referring to. But if you refer to it as "everything" then there's no questioning what you mean.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Divided_Sky]
    #3113104 - 09/09/04 11:08 AM (19 years, 9 months ago)

sorry for the outburst..

but anyway you had said: "The Universe must have come from nothing or must always have existed."

Yes Hawking was saying in his recent book "The Universe in a Nutshell" that they are starting to think that the universe as we are familiar with it "popped" into existence in a way similar to a bubble popping into existence in a pot of water over a stove.

First there was no bubble, no "universe." But this bubble formed out of the qualities that were already there before.

This of course does not help, though. It simply IMO makes the universe a lot bigger, because if we're a bubble within some other substance/material/field/whatever, then where did this substance/material/field from which we bubbled come from?

but I'm getting off-topic.. God made it all, of course!!


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
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OfflineBluePixieWaves
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #12128420 - 03/02/10 03:07 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think we can never fully understand anything if we look at it from are consciouses stand point. We have to try to comprehend the most foreign of concepts to fully understand. Also I wanted to save this old thread.


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Edited by BluePixieWaves (03/02/10 03:08 PM)

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: BluePixieWaves]
    #12128570 - 03/02/10 03:31 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

old thread :lol:

seems someone imitating me was posting in it :mad2:


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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: deff]
    #12128884 - 03/02/10 04:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

God resurrected this thread!

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OfflineBluePixieWaves
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Orthopox]
    #12128941 - 03/02/10 04:42 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I resurrected this thread!


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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: BluePixieWaves]
    #12129044 - 03/02/10 05:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Are you God?

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OfflineBluePixieWaves
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Orthopox]
    #12129337 - 03/02/10 05:54 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yes I am.  :themoreyouknow: At least on drugs. :raveface:


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Offlinetvlxql9x
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: BluePixieWaves]
    #12130316 - 03/02/10 08:02 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)


This here is an interesting theory from theoretical physics on the beginnings of the universe.  Exceedingly long but equally interesting.  Of course a lot is left out because the science behind this requires years to understand, not just an hour, but it provides some basic insight into an interesting theory.

Another interesting take on the causality argument is that this type of argument names God as the original cause because it claims the universe must have been created, but if there is no need for God to have been created why should the universe have to be created?

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: tvlxql9x]
    #12130851 - 03/02/10 09:17 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

this type of argument names God as the original cause because it claims the universe must have been created

This is such a dense-headed argument.

If the universe must have been created, therefore god. Well, OK, then god must have been created and for the same reason.

It's classical religious hypocrisy. Anything that agrees with the pre-conclusion is believed to the exclusion of all critical thought that might undermine it. It's dishonest because it accept supporting reasoning and summarily dismisses any undermining reasoning.

This is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to inquisitions of harmless old scientists, religious wars, and suicide bombs. And here we have the world we live in.

Religion is a plague on the Earth and it will be the end of us.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Diploid]
    #12131194 - 03/02/10 10:03 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Amen!:satansmoking:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Diploid]
    #12131670 - 03/02/10 11:23 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Humans are a plague on Earth. :crying:


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Poid]
    #12131697 - 03/02/10 11:29 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Ya i really don't understand the "The universe must have a cause cuz it cant just exist so god must have created it"

well where did God come from? Oh god just exists

why cant that be applied to the universe?


MAKES NO SENSE


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Diploid]
    #12132189 - 03/03/10 01:21 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

God in this context is just a substitution for something that stands 'outside' of time and space. As we know/assume, not only space started to exist while the big bang, also time did.
So this concept of god not necessarily also has to be created as it would imply some form of time-continuity 'before' the big bang. In fact, scientists say there was no time before that.


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #12132782 - 03/03/10 06:49 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

That's yet another example of religious hypocrisy and dishonesty.

If god can stand outside the universe and therefore created it, then some meta-universal natural process can exist outside the universe and so therefore created it. The exact same reasoning and exactly as plausible but the religious ignore it either deliberately or because they're incapable of critical thought.

This blindness and refusal to consider any sort of alternative idea that might lead to a contradiction of the religion's pre-conclusions is why the world is such a fucked up place.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineEvolution
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Mad_Buhdda_Abuser]
    #12134095 - 03/03/10 12:09 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Why can't we just say we don't know how all matter 'came out of nothing'?
God may be a nice explanation for people, but is there any scientific evidence out there that he/she/it really exists? All believe is subjective, the word belief speaks book-parts. We 'believe' there's a God, but where's the (empirical) evidence?


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- Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies - F.W. Nietzche

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Evolution]
    #12134102 - 03/03/10 12:09 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

we want there to be a good but we have no reason other than da' FEAR


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OfflineEvolution
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: learningtofly]
    #12134215 - 03/03/10 12:25 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think fear plays a big role in believe. People fear that after they die they will go to a 'bad place' because they didn't had a good life. So they try to live good.
Nihilism in my eyes is the beauty of life. There are no good and evil, there's no God. Everything is as it should be and things happen as how they should happen. Simply the laws of nature.
We only live once, so I would say: live your live, enjoy it! It's amazing to see, feel, hear, to experience!  :insano:


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- Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies - F.W. Nietzche

Edited by Evolution (03/03/10 12:26 PM)

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Evolution]
    #12134742 - 03/03/10 01:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

no im sayin the fear that death is the end


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Offlinesoldatheero
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: learningtofly]
    #12134772 - 03/03/10 01:54 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

we want there to be a good but we have no reason other than da' FEAR



not true what so ever. we need to do good because everything we do has a direct result and will eventually impact us.


--------------------
..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.

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Offlinelearningtofly
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: soldatheero]
    #12134775 - 03/03/10 01:55 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i think i meant God


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: soldatheero]
    #12134879 - 03/03/10 02:17 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

we need to do good because everything we do has a direct result and will eventually impact us.

There is no solid evidence which proves that Karma is real, as far as I know.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Offlinedeff
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: Poid]
    #12134997 - 03/03/10 02:35 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

one has to be very observant (i hear)


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OfflineEvolution
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Re: Finally! Proof of Gods Existence!! [Re: learningtofly]
    #12135864 - 03/03/10 04:27 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

learningtofly said:
no im sayin the fear that death is the end




Because death is the end, it makes life even more worth living.


--------------------
- Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies - F.W. Nietzche

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