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Invisible2Experimental
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if you believe in god
    #2888348 - 07/14/04 03:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

what proof do you have? if you don't believe in god, what proof do you have? the definition of proof is so misconstrued, how can either side be sure... I think we can all agree god isn't some mystical figure who punishes sinners and raises the dead.. but what or who is god? I think by saying 'who' we personify the idea of god and that might not be a good thing... what if the force that exists is indeed not a person or soul, but rather a system that all existences abide in, with one rule: no rules


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Offlinepsikooz
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2888370 - 07/14/04 04:12 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

For me, as long as i belive in god, i dont have to have any proof, except for what positive things have come from my life.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2888375 - 07/14/04 04:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

belief doesnt require proof


--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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OfflineBleaK
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2888411 - 07/14/04 04:31 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

faith by definition, is blind.

obviously the christian/catholic view of god can be logically disposed of. otherwise im not so sure....


--------------------
"You cannot trust in law, unless you can trust in people. If you can trust in people, you don't need law." -J. Mumma


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: psikooz]
    #2888437 - 07/14/04 04:52 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

psikooz said:
For me, as long as i belive in god, i dont have to have any proof, except for what positive things have come from my life.




However, said positive things aren't coming into your life directly because of the belief in God, and definitely not because there is some God rewarding you for said belief. Obviously, the belief is changing the way you act and feel, it is seeping through your subconsciousness and changing who you are.

The great realization is that the belief is not at all required to bring forth these changes. There is no point in tricking yourself with chasm-jumping beliefs ( :tongue: @ certain distingushed member, your ten cent check is on the way :lol:) to produce certain effects when one can initate the change on one's own, honestly. It is so much more evolving for oneself to face reality for what it is and change themselves consciously than to make believe something for the same results ignorantly.

God is Reality, God is Existance, God is Experience. We no longer need to use God as our crutch. We can be free humans responsible for ourselves. :laugh:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineFliquid
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2888458 - 07/14/04 05:04 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
belief doesnt require proof




But IMPO that turns belief into ignorance.


--------------------
:dancing: My latest music! :yesnod:


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: Fliquid]
    #2888470 - 07/14/04 05:13 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

well a belief in god would probably be rooted with ones own experience. 

we each experience our own version of god (or lack thereof) so who is one person to say one is correct and the other isn't.

we say "I don't believe in that"  well that's great and all, but another person does, that's for them.

all I can say is that nearly everyday I am in awe of being consciously aware.  I see it as a gift.  one way is to think that this is all by chance, and you have been given this chance.  another way that what will happen is supposed to happen, that this is not accidental.  that there are greater forces leading us to our own realizations.  but after all is said and done, if you really think about it, there is life. 

and regardless of what you want to label it as, we're "here" and that in itself is AWEsome  :grin:


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2888473 - 07/14/04 05:14 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

"what proof do you have? "

and if you don't believe in god, what proof do you have?


--------------------
Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: kaiowas]
    #2888493 - 07/14/04 05:24 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

2Experimental said:
[if you believe in god] what proof do you have? if you don't believe in god, what proof do you have? 




.........................

Quote:

kaiowas said:
"what proof do you have? "

and if you don't believe in god, what proof do you have?




Sounds like you guys are on the same page. :wink:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: fireworks_god]
    #2888729 - 07/14/04 08:17 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

proof?
don't be silly...
when buddha was asked about some stuff, he "maintained a noble silence"...
he never denied the existence of the hindu god(s), but stated that in the end, they won't be the ones to deliver you...

i am a practicing christian (for a variety or reasons, some maybe good, some maybe not so good, i dunno...)
but belief - well, my koan in this cycle of my life is to try to understand what is happening in the words we speak, in the ritual we share, in the community we create...
and i must say i do not grok in fullness (perhaps waiting is?)...
so, as to the "actual factual" existence of the christian version of the supreme being --- well, remember, myth can hold truths deeper and truer than mere facts... heh...
but i will testify to the existence of spirit... spirit that blows through us all like the wind blows through the fields, spirit that holds us up like the ocean holds up the waves, spirit that feeds us as the earth transforms sunlight and soil and air into food, spirit that illuminates us as our sun lights the days, and as distant suns light the night...

spirit is real...
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


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InvisibleAdom
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: gnrm23]
    #2888882 - 07/14/04 10:34 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

The-spirit-that-moves-through-all-things.

I am agnostic for conversations sake but have feelings deep down and a life of experiences that would make me more of a believer.


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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2888912 - 07/14/04 10:57 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Look at the world around you in nature. It is ignorant to believe that such beauty could have spawned itself without a creator; to counteract this ignorance one has to create "logical" escape routes because they need to reassure themselves that they don't believe in God. "psikooz", as seen in throughout the messageboard, is an intelligent person and should be seen as credible when it comes to discerning how the belief in God is changing his life. There is absolutely no need to try and discourage him because you believe that the "fact" that his belief is changing him and what if that was the cause? That still doesn't debunk the fact that God exists.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2889199 - 07/14/04 01:00 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

It is equally as ignorant to say there must be a creator! Beauty is just a chemical in your brain.

You forget that the same god has created the ugly state the modern world is in terrorism, wars, increasing threats to humanty from super-viruses, famine, aids, the list goes on...

2experimental's suggestion "a system that all existences abide in, with one rule: no rules" is a far more accurate description of any God or Universal Life Energy as I would prefer to call it myself.

>>>That still doesn't debunk the fact that God exists.

You sound so sure that God exists what exactly is your description of God? It seems to me you've chosen the old man that created the world description. Do you also believe he/it can affect the individuals life, like in a negative or positive way? Other than the simple mechanism of belief that is.


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InvisibleEgo Death
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2889205 - 07/14/04 01:02 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Does the possibility that God doesn't exist scare you?


--------------------


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2889226 - 07/14/04 01:13 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

There is no such thing as proof.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibletoad857
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2889369 - 07/14/04 01:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ld50negative1 said:
Look at the world around you in nature. It is ignorant to believe that such beauty could have spawned itself without a creator;




you may think that such a belief is foolish, but it is by no means ignorant. the ones who believe so strongly in it are usually the ones who have an extremely solid foundation in natural history, biology and the workings of evolution.


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Offlineld50negative1
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2889470 - 07/14/04 02:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

God didn't create the "ugly" state we are in. God gave humans free choice and it was abused and still is. Humans have created this state we are in. It is 100% ignorant to try and reason with a process of creation (evolution) that its creator dismissed on his death bed. Do you not find it strange that a man dedicated most of his life to figuring out the process by which this world came into existence minus a creator and then just threw it all before he died. Man wont believe in God because he is not willing to let go of himself. I can't help but smile at all of you who won't believe who continually try to reach "spiritual" plateaus when I've reached the highest state of spiritualality through faith in christ. It's not hard to understand evolution toad857, all evolution is an excuse not to believe in the fallen state of man and the need for christ in your life. I know you all know the truth inside yourselves, it's just a matter of letting go of ego and pride in your intelligence to reason around God. And I really don't care how bad I get flamed for speaking out or for being "ignorant" to say I know the truth... because I've reached such a contmentment and comfort in my life that none of you could understand unless you share my faith. And BTW I do have modern day proof of Christianity.


Mark 16:15 "He said to them (jesus), 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe; In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they will drink deadly poison and it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.'"


"Speaking in new tongues" is a form of spiritual prayer also spoken about in I Corinthians. 3 of my friends, as well as myself, pray through "new tongues" and it isn't random babling, it is actual language coming out of our mouths that we can use any time we want... though we cant control what comes out of our mouths. (thusly making the speech a "new tongue")

And that is my proof, if you want to hear it, come on down to memphis, tn.

But believe what you want you fucks, it's your decision. After typing all that I'm done for the day. Flame away.


Edited by ld50negative1 (07/14/04 02:20 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: gnrm23]
    #2889495 - 07/14/04 02:21 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I'm definitely with you on the spirit thing. I think it definitely ties in with the mind, and pure awareness. :laugh:

As far as "that still doesn't debunk the existance of God", as ld50negative said, obviously I am not to do that, as obviously it is impossible to do anyways. Just as it is impossible to prove the existance of God. :lol:

What I am proposing is that positive results in ones life stemming from a belief in God are not proof of that God's existance. How can they be? The positive results are simply coming about because of the effects having such a belief is changing who he is at some level, his personality and how he acts.

As I said, there is no reason to trick yourself (I don't think anyone consciously realizes they are tricking themselves here) in order to iniate positive change in one's character and one's mind when one can consciously and honestly effect that change on their own. Doing so brings you closer to reality and is more potent growth in ones personal evolution. :wink:

We do not need to seperate ourselves from reality by making assumptions that are not ours to make. I think it is far more important to leave such areas completely open until some day comes when we will be in a position to have more information on the matter.

And, as I said earlier, I myself extremely value reality, existance, experience, the mind and awareness. These are the most ultimate things I have found that come close to some sort of "God", although the meaning associated with those words are probably far better off at fufilling their purpose than to ever try to be lumped together or described with that loaded term. These things amaze me, especially the fact that we get first hand experience and knowledge of these things. They might not be God, but it could definitely be the right direction to look to eventually find whatever it is that could be further beyond....

But, until then, I see no point in fooling myself to think I have enough to start making assumptions (beliefs, of course) concerning what the stuff far beyond the most potent stuff we already have some experience with actually is, and the nature of that stuff. I think it is far more important to keep an open, free mind, like water, that is able to flow everywhere and learn without set beliefs and assumptions damming up that flow of awareness. Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc...  :smirk:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: ld50negative1]
    #2889616 - 07/14/04 02:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

ld50negative1 said:
God didn't create the "ugly" state we are in. God gave humans free choice and it was abused and still is.




If the principle of free choice is being abused, then by definition the abuse of that principle would be not using free choice. How is making any choice being an abuse of a system where we are allowed to make any choice? And is defining the state we are in as "ugly" your label? How did you come to label the state of our existance as ugly?

Quote:


Humans have created this state we are in. It is 100% ignorant to try and reason with a process of creation (evolution) that its creator dismissed on his death bed.




By the Creator of the process of Creation, I take it you are referring to God... when did God die? Was it when Time magazine had that question "Is God dead?" on the cover of an issue? :lol:

Actually, I think it would be 100% ignorant to not face reality and strong evidence regarding evolution. At least it has some proof we can make sense of and understand. :lol:

Quote:


Do you not find it strange that a man dedicated most of his life to figuring out the process by which this world came into existence minus a creator and then just threw it all before he died.




Nope.

Quote:


I can't help but smile at all of you who won't believe who continually try to reach "spiritual" plateaus when I've reached the highest state of spiritualality through faith in christ.




*gasps* It is Buddha! He has returned! But... what's this about faith in Christ, Buddha? I thought you reached the highest state of spirituality by completely merging with reality on your own. Maybe you aren't Buddha after all.....  :grin:

Quote:


It's not hard to understand evolution toad857, all evolution is an excuse not to believe in the fallen state of man and the need for christ in your life.




Ahhh yes, science is just an excuse to not believe in ignorance. Knowledge certainly always tends to bring one away from ignorance, after all. I wonder why.....  :smirk:

Quote:


And that is my proof, if you want to hear it, come on down to memphis, tn.




That is hardly proof of anything other than your ability to have chaotic sounds come out of your mouth.

Quote:


But believe what you want you fucks, it's your decision. After typing all that I'm done for the day. Flame away.




Someone who has reached the highest state of spiritiuality demeans us with the term "fucks"? My... what is spirituality coming to?  :jesus:

:headbang: :headbang: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: if you believe in god [Re: silversoul7]
    #2889671 - 07/14/04 02:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
There is no such thing as proof.




--------------------
peace, pot, and microdot!


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