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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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god proof
    #3894006 - 03/09/05 05:56 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

A friend once drew this chart for me, and said it was the most convincing arguement to believe in god that she has ever seen.

......................God exists...............God doesn?t exist
Believe.............Infinite pleasure.......Finite pain
Don?t believe.....Infinite pain.............Finite pleasure

If you don?t believe, and when you die you just rot, then your existence was wholly pleasurable. If you do believe, and when you die thats it, then your existence was wholly painful. But if you don?t believe, and that turns out to be wrong, you spend the forever in pain. But your existence was not wholly painful. If you believe, and you turn out to be right, you spend forever in pleasure. But your existence was not wholly pleasurable, either.

But this chart compares only two groups, believers of a monotheistic (belief in god) with a ?heaven-hell? scenario as an afterlife, and while everyone else, including those who believe in a different god or gods, are lumped into the ?don?t believe? category. I think this chart was designed so simply to ignores a strong, real-life, point. Why have hundreds of religions claimed to be the one true faith, and how can you discount hundreds of religions by believing in just one? Each has its own wide base of believers, of which there are many willing to die for their belief. Going by the chart, if billions of people are picking the wrong god, they will live a wholly painful existence. There isn?t a way to tell for sure if you?ve picked right, and your chances of picking the one right one are terrible. Much less than 1%, if you go by how many religions there are to choose from.

And it seems pPlenty of people go to church as ?just in case? patrons of that faith. Of course, nobody wants to spend existence in infinite pain, but should the fear of that be enough to perpetuate the very rules that caused that fear? To me, it was a great liberation when I realized that the biggest argument for believing in god is a looped; you first must believe to be afraid of not believing.

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OfflineHippie
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894033 - 03/09/05 06:00 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

I've heard this case many times before, but it still does nothing for me...


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894065 - 03/09/05 06:03 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

So basically it's like "You might as well believe, because if you don't, and it turns out you're wrong, you're screwed."

Yeah, that doesn't really work for me.

Someone could tell me "If you don't shoot yourself in the head in the next 5 minutes, you'll spend eternity in hell." I'm not going to shoot myself in the head just in case... I have no reason at all to think that might be true other than someone tells me it is. Same with God.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894140 - 03/09/05 06:16 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

Quote:

TheShroomHermit said:
......................God exists...............God doesn?t exist
Believe.............Infinite pleasure.......Finite pain
Don?t believe.....Infinite pain.............Finite pleasure






God exists..........I exist.................God doesn't exist
Believe.............conform.................give money to the church
Don't believe.......free will...............live through your own eyes (and don't let someone tell you a god is going to 'shit' on you if you don't follow the interpretations as they suggest them)

The primary difference in my chart is that at the top, their is one thing that can be proven beyond a doubt.

The reasoning is one based, and perpetuated to the extent that you give a shit of what lies beyond after this life. You can't prove to me beyond a doubt that something can exist, beyond anecdotal evidence. I can make up a system of belief right now if you want, (could even do it with the help of the shroomery) that casts your wayward soul into the dephts of hell if you don't believe it, yet if you have piety, and are observant to the laws of man, then you will indeliably be granted a great afterlife.

Edit:
Ever see a hostage/SWAT negotiation on tv or in rl? If you have, you'll know what I'm talking about... they tell the dude that has the power to stop and/or do something that they don't want that they'll do everything they want for him. (A bit abstract; I realize this, but same thing for most religions that suggest conformity or death...)

An even greater issue presented by this is:

1) having multiple people telling you about their belief systems, as an end result of not choosing the right one you will leave an afterlife of suffering, and god will leave you alone until you conform to every established tenant presented.

Choices:
A) Pick the right one and don't die.

B) Pick the wrong one, from the multitied of "truths" and saviors and die.

C) Try to appease all gods at once, thereby pissing some of them off for attempting to please more then the one "true god"

D) give up... and think for yourself, and be motivated to do what is right as a thing to do, and not as a mandate from heaven.


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"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

Edited by Psychoactive1984 (03/09/05 06:23 PM)

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Offlinegnrm23
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Re: god proof [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3894214 - 03/09/05 06:29 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

pascal's wager...

it's still CYA to me...


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old enough to know better
not old enough to care

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894277 - 03/09/05 06:36 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

GOD....  There is only one....  There are different churches with perhaps different rules, but for the most part, there is only one GOD that they pray too....  You do NOT need church to find GOD, that is where you go to celebrate with people once you do find him - if you so choose....  For once you do find Truth, you will WANT to go out and talk, listen and share with people about what you have learned.... 

And yes, before I prooved it to myself, there was no way anyone could prove it to me....  As I have learned thru my search, that you must prove it to yourself to truly believe....    I have been shown in quite miraculous ways beyond ANY words that would prove to any other, but once you do find GOD, you will KNOW, and you will know Truth, Love, an unspoken Joy, and an inner Peace that is just beyond words....  Nothing more needs to be proven....  It just is....  You will find the "secret" to your own happiness....  GOD will give you the strength and meaning that everyone seeks in Life - free from ALL fear....  Perhaps even give you a direction in life that you had not already seen....  :wink:  :heart:


You want proof....?  Do you REALLY want proof to finding Truth and endless Love....?  If you do, there is something I did to find GOD on my own, and it was very very simple....  I did it on my own without being told to do so....  I am assuming that it will also work for others....  I guess there is only one way to find out....!?  Repeat these words OUT LOUD when ever you CHOOSE to find the proof you need to believe for yourself....:


"PLEASE GOD, if you do exist, give me the help of your guiding hands for me to find the proof of your existance...."


Painless, as there does not need to be suffering - not when you find the Truth....  Then all I got to say is "Watch for the signs"....  Not as if you will be able to ignore them, but just saying....  :smile:    You will get your proof - if you are truly seeking to find out if GOD exists, he will help anyone trying to find him....  I had already lived in a "positive" light towards others when I did seek proof for the existance of GOD, perhaps this is also needed....  For if you are not pure in your intentions, I dunno~ if you will get, or be able to see the proof you need to put it all together....  :shrug:

The only way that I can proove any of my words is with my intentions....  I am not writing this for me....  :heart:


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3894444 - 03/09/05 07:06 PM (19 years, 14 days ago)

I think Bill Hicks says it best again here: " so basically....question God's infinite love and eternal suffering awaits you?"

If there is a God up there who is petty enough to want my approval, attention, or worship then screw him/her/it. What does it matter if I believe in God or not? If I go to "hell" for not saying "yes emporer, those are great clothes you have on", then that is where i want to be. i wouldnt want anything to do with heaven then.

The way I see it, satan (or whatever) has only attempted to steer man into furthering himself without God as a crutch. Here have this apple from the tree of knowledge, you and eve go have wonderful, magical sex, be merry and multiply, have fun. Then God steps in: here, have some shame, dont do this, dont do that, im only doing this out of love, this hurts me as much as it hurts you, let me drag you down so i can lift you up.

Satan is a good guy in my book, if he exists, which I doubt. Do the Hedonism Hop!

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: god proof [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3894666 - 03/09/05 07:42 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
If there is a God up there who is petty enough to want my approval, attention, or worship then screw him/her/it. What does it matter if I believe in God or not? If I go to "hell" for not saying "yes emporer, those are great clothes you have on", then that is where i want to be. i wouldnt want anything to do with heaven then.




Asking for compliments about Clothing....?  :wtf:  HHhhhmmmm....    :shake:

That is the thing, you don't have to believe....  You don't even have to seek Truth....  It is all choice, just like your parents gave you when you left your parents home....  Free to do what you would like.... 

Are you happy....?    Truly happy....?    Or are you just "coasting" thru life wondering what it is all about....?    Such richness and "meaning" awaits....    I have no reason to lie, I don't get anything out of this.... 

If you truly want to "know", and you have a hard time believing the whole thing like I did, ask for help....  It is not ever demanded of anyone....  You have to WANT to find Truth....  If you let him know you are actually looking, I believe GOD will help you....    Why do I believe....?  Because I KNOW....  And now that I know, I feel like a fool for waiting so long to find what it was that I was looking for....  Truth....


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Offlinerdnp2035
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Re: god proof [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #3894771 - 03/09/05 08:00 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

Well said psilocyberin. But I think the shame part of the god image is more a reflection of societal influences coming from competitive, power hungry, somewhat sadistic individuals who claim to speak for religious organizations.

It seems to me that most of the rules laid out in the bible and whatnot are geared towards respecting other individuals and your self. People twist everything like crazy by taking stuff out of context and narrowing their vision to individual clauses to suit their purpose.. But, anyways, I think there is a noble truth behind some of the principles that are declared in the name of god. To stay out of other people's space, to suspend judgment and violence..stuff like that is not a teaching about what god wants us to to, but actually makes us more like gods.

To have a perfectly pristine life, an existence untarnished by negative emotions...transcends the arguments. If you bask in eternal love you Feel the connection to an other, a greater radiance.

btw, I think he meant clothing in a figurative way..if god's god, then our world is his clothing.

Edited by rdnp2035 (03/09/05 08:03 PM)

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Invisibleshroomydan
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894795 - 03/09/05 08:05 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

This is Blaise Pascal's famous "Wager".

Quote:

Let us then examine this point, and say, "God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up. What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.

Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it. "No, but I blame them for having made, not this choice, but a choice; for again both he who chooses heads and he who chooses tails are equally at fault, they are both in the wrong. The true course is not to wager at all."

Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose, let us see which interests you least. You have two things to lose, the true and the good; and two things to stake, your reason and your will, your knowledge and your happiness; and your nature has two things to shun, error and misery. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose. This is one point settled. But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. "That is very fine. Yes, I must wager; but I may perhaps wager too much." Let us see. Since there is an equal risk of gain and of loss, if you had only to gain two lives, instead of one, you might still wager. But if there were three lives to gain, you would have to play (since you are under the necessity of playing), and you would be imprudent, when you are forced to play, not to chance your life to gain three at a game where there is an equal risk of loss and gain. But there is an eternity of life and happiness. And this being so, if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you, if there were an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain. But there is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. It is all divided; where-ever the infinite is and there is not an infinity of chances of loss against that of gain, there is no time to hesitate, you must give all. And thus, when one is forced to play, he must renounce reason to preserve his life, rather than risk it for infinite gain, as likely to happen as the loss of nothingness.

-- Blaise Pascal, Pensees #233



http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?PascalsWager


It's not a proof for the existence of God so much as it is a reason to "will to believe" (William James).

This online encyclopedia has arguments for and against the wager, including the objection about more than one religion/god. Some may find it interesting.
http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/pasc-wag.htm

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: god proof [Re: rdnp2035]
    #3894835 - 03/09/05 08:13 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

Just for those who do want to hear my words, I have NEVER read ANY of the Bible, nor do I go to an any organized religions or churches.... 

However, I DO have a close friend that knows the Bible very well, and without any intentions, he answers the questions I have asked of him about the Bible....  My intentions were of finding Truth....  I had no other intentions....    An observer, if you will....

And Radiance is a pretty good way to describe the feelings....    Something of a PURE nature....  Something beyond words....  As I found yesterday, it becomes a simple thing to make someone cry out of Joy, just by sharing Truth with them....    It is effortless, and without intent....


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3894906 - 03/09/05 08:25 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

No chart will prove the exixtance of god.



EVER






Most all religions believe in god...but you dont have to be religious to believe in god.

I think all religions have a piece of the truth, not the whole truth. No one religion has it right.

Look at some of the "native" (tribal people from all continents) religious belief systems. Their systems were somewhat similar in their POV. Just like many of the religions of tody have pretty much the same core principles.



IMO the idea of an Omnipotent, All Knowing, All Seeing, All Powerfull GOD to be somewhat barbaric.

I DO believe in a higher level of conscience tho. I see/feel Its presence in my life from time to time.

I think that the "religious" people of earth are comforatble with the idea of an "Omnipotent God".

The idea of a God that is not "All Powerfull" is somewhat unsettling.


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Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: god proof [Re: niteowl]
    #3894949 - 03/09/05 08:33 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

I would think that a GOD that is only there from "time to time" would be more unsettling....    But, I guess the constant barbaric'ism tearing up my heart will be the price I have to pay....  :heartpump: :sun:

Silly me....!  :lol:

Individual choice is a wonderful thing.... 

ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineWildRunner
Obey little,Resist much

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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3895006 - 03/09/05 08:44 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

Pantheism.
the word pantheism derives from the Greek words 'pan' (='all')
and 'theos' (='god'). Thus, pantheism means 'All is God'. In essence, pantheism holds that the universe as a whole is divine, and that there is no divinity other than the universe and nature.


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If you dont know where you're going, any road will take you there.

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: god proof [Re: WildRunner]
    #3895076 - 03/09/05 08:57 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

Look up the word "Universe"....  Then break down the word....  Find the meaning of those words....   
Or, I did it for ya~, just click here....    :wink:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/3854560#Post3854560

Pretty amazing what one can find in a "little" word....  UNIVERSE....!


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3897987 - 03/10/05 01:43 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

A god that punishes people with hell does not deserve to be be believed at.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: god proof [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3899431 - 03/10/05 06:39 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

It is not of the "light" that punishes....  There is light and darkness, and hell is not on the light side....  People seem to forget that very fact, and seem to blame GOD for everything that is wrong, weather they believe or not....  You are not being punished by GOD when you go to hell, you are living with the concequenses of your free CHOICES....  Just as one would go to jail for CHOOSING to, and getting caught breaking the law of the land....   

Last night seemed to be of my purpose to tell others how I did find the Truth....  I had not known what I would find when i started my search, but I was open to whatever I found or was shown to me....  I am an observer by nature....  It is my way....  All of those rage filled threads I made in my search were for a purpose....  I don't doubt that at all now....  I made a lot of mistakes in my search, kinda~ taking a lot of things out of context, and I was shown by all what I was wrong in....  I asked many many questions, asked of the then *seemingly* contradictions I had seen on the surface, and the good people around me corrected me and my mistakes.... 

In the end, I found what I almost did not expect to find....  I am truly greatful for that, as it has changed my life so much....  I didn't have anything in my life to be as "bad", but my finding Truth has miraculously changed it for SO much in the betterment of my self.... 

Religion is a very touchy thing for people, as it is very personal, and it is of one's belief in something that one cannot show to others with proof....  Well sort of, Not in physical proof anyways.... 

I have offered my reasons, and the way I had found to work for me....  Some people are very much like I was, not knowing of anything to exist....  I wanted to present to those people a way that I found to work for me, to help me find that Truth....  As MANY MANY people have shared with me, I feel I must now share what I KNOW with everyone....    It  would be a terrible unjust to not share this wonderful joy that has been shared upon me....   

I posted so much last night....    Something was driving me, and now that feeling is calm tonight....  I wish people could just step in my shoes for a moment and see life thru my eyes....  In how I see things now....  Such beauty that is this world, and the life that is all around me....    I never have been able to see such things with clarity like this before....  There is a beauty within that itself....  It is of the devine....  Nothing words can describe....  And it was literally a flick of a switch....  There is just NO WAY that it is just my imagination....  I never spoke like this ever in my life....  And now it is effortless and with meaning that I speak.... 

I hope the faith that you have decided to believe in, if you do, has brought you the happiness that I have found....  It is of a fearlessness joy and happiness that I have never felt before....    And it has not changed since the moment it happened....  It is of God.... 

I used to take Xanax to help me with anxiety....  There is no need for that anymore....  I would only smile when in the comapny of friends when we were telling jokes, now I smile all of the time....  With this fearlessness has brought a new confidence within myself that I never had before....  And such clarity of thought as to see the truth in an answer, or a question that I have never seen before.... 

A complete and understandment of myself, and aslo within others....  This is not just a delusional fluke, how could SO much positive change happen from just a "realization"....?  All I did was let the doubt go that GOD existed, and it all just changed....  EVERYTHING changed....  And now my life is beautiful....  As I see the beauty in all around me....  A beauty that was there all along, I had just not been able to see....  And was not ANYTHING that I could have dreamt to having expected or foreseen.... 

Yeah, something like all of that, times about 100....  That is why I speak with such passion about it....  Such conviction....  As I have no doubts in my words....  I feel more like my words are guiding me than I am guiding them....  Sound strange....?   

Now I am VERY interested in exploring my new found friend, and I was a fool to not have made my search much sooner....  But for this gift, I share of others wishing to find Truth, like I have definately found....  I seeked an answer, and I found GOD....  With intents of having an open heart, open mind, and open ears....  Nothing more, nothing less.... 

Can you ask your GOD of help....?    Are you truly happy, and see life and everything about it as beautiful....?    Do you live seeing the negative and perpetuating it....?    Do you complain about stuff, and get frustrated easily....?  If not, or even if so, what harm would there be in seeking the truth for yourself....?    It seemed to be petty simple just to ask for help, not knowing in a million years that my plee would lead me in the right direction....  So I will share my way of finding Truth again....








You want proof....?  Do you REALLY want proof to finding Truth and endless Love....?  If you do, there is something I did to find GOD on my own, and it was very very simple....  I did it on my own without being told to do so....  I am assuming that it will also work for others....  I guess there is only one way to find out....!?  Repeat these words OUT LOUD when ever you CHOOSE to find the proof you need to believe for yourself....:


"PLEASE GOD, if you do exist, give me the help of your guiding hands for me to find the proof of your existance...."


The only way that I can proove any of my words is with my intentions....  As again, I am not writing this for me....  :heart:


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineCyber
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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3899534 - 03/10/05 06:57 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

PhanTomCat,

Please excuse me for being a little blunt and to the point here. I have read your posts and am happy that you have found your "TRUTH" but they seem to come across as if you need a validation of your belief. You need proof that you are right in your believes as if to justify the way you feel about god. You do not need a justification, proof, or validation of your beliefs. You need only accept that what has happened in your life is for you. Each person has there paths to follow and each learns of there truth in due time. Proselytizing and preaching does not hurry them along or put them on "The right Path".

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3899619 - 03/10/05 07:12 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

that is a different god you are talking about, not the one I was refering to in my post


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: god proof [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3899688 - 03/10/05 07:32 PM (19 years, 13 days ago)

"When we blindly adopt a religion, a political system, a literary dogma, we become automatons. We cease to grow."

-Anais Nin

How about making up a god instead of using everyone else's? :lol:


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: god proof [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3899797 - 03/10/05 07:53 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Well, each man, no matter how religious has his own god, or image of god. Because any image of god, or a vision of god, or a description of god is a reduction of god to something less than god.
I even doubt that you can think about god, because you are reducing it to less than everything and ultimate.
You can perhapse live god, and be god (be one with god), but there is nothing to be said about god.

What can be said about being? Well, what is just is, you can't describe it. You can only be being, nothing else.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: god proof [Re: Cyber]
    #3899932 - 03/10/05 08:29 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Preach --  To deliver a religious address publicly as to expound the gospel....

Cyber, You can be as blunt as you would like, is this how you have interpreted of my words....?    Preaching the gospel...?    I did answer a post of OldWoodSpecter, to which he just stated (I think) that he was not indeed speaking to me as it would appear(even tho~ he did reply to my post).... 

And, I am most certainly NOT looking for ANY proof, validation, or justification, as I have not asked for any....  I have all the proof I need....  Quite simply....  I don't understand that comment....?

I am not telling anyone to do anything, people believe in what they believe in....  As I said very clearly, I shared in my personal experience what has happened with me in my very search....  I then shared with how I found the means to get here....  That is not preaching, for I do not know the gospel....  Nor have any of my words been about any of the stories within the gospel.... 

The very title of this thread is called "GOD PROOF"....  What were you expecting to find in here....?    Quite simply, I am on the topic of the thread, and I have not told ANYONE what they should do, or need to do, thus, not preaching any words - at least how I understand....  I shared, as many kind people here have shared their experiences with me.... 

Quote:

Each person has there paths to follow and each learns of there truth in due time. Proselytizing and preaching does not hurry them along or put them on "The right Path".



It is ALL about choice, and nothing is stated differently....  I am sorry you have somehow gotten the wrong intent of my words of sharing my personal experience.... 

If I had known a long time ago what I do now, I would most certainly be greatful for someone giving me the information on how to find that proof that I was looking for....  I just didn't know what I would find with my simply asking for it....  And maybe this little sharing WILL help someone that is indeed looking, but didn't know they could ask for help, or how to ask.... 

With my sharing the means to which I found my own proof, with such BOLDED words such as "Do you want proof...?", "When ever you choose to find proof", etc. etc., I have not "preached" anything, and again, stayed within the very topic of the thread....   

I am not really sure what you are seeing in my sharing of how I found my proof to be "preaching"....  :shrug:

I dunno~ what else to say....?  I guess my appollogies would go to TheShroomHermit for not starting my own thread with the same title so as to not have such a presence here in this one....  And my appllogies to anyone else that found my words to be "preachy", "pushy", or "offensive"....  Perhaps the way it worked for me will not work for others that wish, eeehhh....  Yeah.... 


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3899941 - 03/10/05 08:33 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

~chill, words are always just words till you let them bother ya.


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3900167 - 03/10/05 09:21 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

PhanTomCat said:
GOD....You do NOT need church to find GOD, that is where you go to celebrate with people once you do find him..."




That is right. You find the kingdom of God within yourself. The kingdom of heaven is not only within us, but all around us. It is us. When you love, you are bennefitting and adding to the kingdom of God!


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: god proof [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3900208 - 03/10/05 09:32 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

For, come all yee children, I will saveth you from eternal damnation, :hellfire: you MUST ALL follow me INTO the light..... 
Or, you will SURELY go to HELLLLLLLLLLLL.......



>>>>HONK HONK<<<<

:lol:  :rotfl:  :lol:  :rotfl:  :lol:  :rotfl:  :lol:


I am chilled, :sick: sometimes I just don't understand others intents when I get accused, as I have no other intents than to share....  I have been accused twice this week of "rewording" other axiom "things"....  Some shit I just thought up on my own, to which I knew nothing about in the first place....  I wouldn't even know what to call this stuff to look em' up on Google anyway.... 

:shrug:    Whatcha~ gonna~ dew~....?  :shrug:

I got an idea for a "perfect" Yin Yang that I am working thru right now, and *should* finish over the weekend....  A long with a few other "cool" or "neat"  things, that seemingly "plopped" into my head....    But if I post them, I will prolly be accused of copying something else....  :lol:  Perhaps the knowledge I "realize" or my personal creations are just meant to be kept within my notebooks as my ideas....  :smirk:  As my little thought up ideas and stuff ain't gonna~ change anything anyways....!  :tongue:

I have to say that these ideas MUST be coming to me because I found GOD(just to stay on topic),
but then I might be nailed as a "preacher" once again....  :shake: :lol:


ME....


:heartpump::heartpump:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: god proof [Re: MAGnum]
    #3900232 - 03/10/05 09:35 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

MAGnum, sorry for putting the devil under you...!!  :blush:


:heartpump:

I love ya~ man....!    Thanks for sticken up for me guys....


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<

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OfflineMAGnum
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Re: god proof [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3900287 - 03/10/05 09:48 PM (19 years, 12 days ago)

A proof of God is that God is exsistance. The cosmos mirrors all the properties of God because everything is God. Someone once asked, "why do you call it God," and I answerred that I call this exsistance, "God" because it is all very alive. Just look at exsistance itself and you have the proof of God.


--------------------
Agent 727
7

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Offlinerdnp2035
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Re: god proof [Re: MAGnum]
    #3900846 - 03/11/05 12:09 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Yeah..the proof of a higher is existence is all around us. How could something so completely absurdly complex exist without a conscious, creative spark behind it?

Our existence is marked by a crazy twist on the law of entropy. Things aren't getting more random, the chemicals on this planet have organized themselves self to ridiculous and ever increasing levels. But even as things intertwine more finely, the possibilities for randomness go through the roof...somehow balancing the equation.

Our ability to manifest the world around us is what god is all about...our skills are increasing at such a rate that the future is becoming less and less imaginable. Soon we'll be living in a world so rich in personal expression that our giant alien brains will reveal their long forgotten true nature.

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InvisiblePsychoactive1984
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Re: god proof [Re: rdnp2035]
    #3900903 - 03/11/05 12:30 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Quote:

rdnp2035 said:
Yeah..the proof of a higher is existence is all around us. How could something so completely absurdly complex exist without a conscious, creative spark behind it?





?

Just because we don't know about something doesn't mean we justify it with some degree of a contrived notion. Everything in the past, including phenomena that we're well aware of what it is now on the basis of our knowledge... was attributed to many things, the primary being it came from a metaphysical/supernatural origin.

Proof > Conviction

my $0.02


--------------------
"Their is one overriding question that concerns us all: How can we get out of the fatal groove we are in, the one that is leading towards the brink?" Albert Szent-Gyorgyi
"We may not be capable of eradicating the corruption of reason, but we must nevertheless counter it at every instance and with every means." Dan Agin
"Politics is the best religion and politicians are the worst followers."
-It's ok to trip as long as you don't fall.
-Substance over Style.
-Common sense is uncommon.

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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: god proof [Re: Psychoactive1984]
    #3901187 - 03/11/05 03:40 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

i can't wait till im in hell. then no one will ever try converting me again

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Invisiblefearfect
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Re: god proof [Re: fearfect]
    #3901191 - 03/11/05 03:45 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

its kinda funny how our innate desire for survival has surpassed "life" and has extended to the survival of our "soul".

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OfflineThe_Walrus
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3901241 - 03/11/05 04:32 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

I don't understand this 'infinite pain' malarkey. If there is no afterlife, and you die, then you will be too dead to experience pain.
My belief on the matter is that it is impossible to prove or disprove the existence of god. If there is a higher power, then there is no way in which we would be able to understand it fully, since we would be products of it. I believe in the latter really, this 'higher power' is probably not a concious being like us at all, it would probably go beyond the concepts of consciousness, and also the very laws of nature itself. We can get slight glimpses of this higher power when we see elegant scientific models/theories such as Einsteins relativity, or superstring theory, we can also get a glimpse of it by looking at works of art that have stood the test of time. There are many ways in which we can 'glimpse' this higher power, but our minds are not capable of fully understanding it. People have certainly got closer to it than others. I believe scientists like Darwin, Newton, Einstein, Max Planck et all got closer to it. Artists like Dali, MC Escher, Picasso, et all also got closer to it. The same goes to philosophers such as Plato, Descarte, Socrates, Buddha et all, and the major religious figures like Jesus, Mohammed, Abraham et all. In my opinion it was people who mixed together all these various things, science, art, religion, philosophy etc that got closest to it, Leonardo Da-vinci springs to mind as a good candidate.


--------------------
'Everything that can be counted does not necessarily count; everything that counts cannot necessarily be counted' - Albert Einstein

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Offlinerdnp2035
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Re: god proof [Re: The_Walrus]
    #3901626 - 03/11/05 08:56 AM (19 years, 12 days ago)

Yeah, good luck on that..you're in hell, the punishiment realm..and you're living up the good life knowing that no one can proove to you why you are being punished or that there is another way. Soak up the pain.

I used to feel the same way psycho, until it started to dawn on me that the difference in complexity between..say..a rock and dna is about 1 : 23049702893709. I guess it could be meaningless.
Just as all the increadible gifts growing out of the ground, falling from the sky, sustaining, tasty, pleasurable, mind expanding things that surround us...might have just landed there.

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InvisibleBillyGrass
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Re: god proof [Re: rdnp2035]
    #3950003 - 03/21/05 04:40 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Eh.. I think that GOD is a term that needs some clarification:
The whole point of believing in GOD in the first place is to give yourself a better AUTOPILOT, right? You see, if you can muster %100 belief in an all-powerfull entity that smoothes and defocuses all your errors, guides and inspires you when you get stuck, and gently dissolves you into his/her/it's holy presence when you die, then YES your life and your death are going to be better. Because, IT's YOU! (which, usually is the best answer to the who question).

The problem is, once you realize this point, then you no longer have that %100 beLIEf. Unless you can some how have both at the same time. That's a trick I'd like to see! Maybe with a combo of a mind-altering drug we haven't discovered yet, and some self-hypnosis. Anyway, anything's possible.

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InvisibleeMotionALLmotion
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Re: god proof [Re: BillyGrass]
    #3950150 - 03/21/05 05:02 PM (19 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

BillyGrass said:
Eh.. I think that GOD is a term that needs some clarification:
The whole point of believing in GOD in the first place is to give yourself a better AUTOPILOT, right? You see, if you can muster %100 belief in an all-powerfull entity that smoothes and defocuses all your errors, guides and inspires you when you get stuck, and gently dissolves you into his/her/it's holy presence when you die, then YES your life and your death are going to be better. Because, IT's YOU! (which, usually is the best answer to the who question).
.
The problem is, once you realize this point, then you no longer have that %100 beLIEf. Unless you can some how have both at the same time. That's a trick I'd like to see! Maybe with a combo of a mind-altering drug we haven't discovered yet, and some self-hypnosis. Anyway, anything's possible.



.
Hhhhmmmm, I have never really heard or thought of a point in believing in GOD....  Perhaps if you just believe in yourself 100% of the time, that is all that matters....(?)  Weather you believe in GOD or not is up to you, just as long as you find internal peace and joy, that is all that really matters....  When you believe in yourself, that is where unconditional LOVE is spawned from....  Then you can SHINE like the sun....  :sun:  If you so choose anyways....  I choose to believe in GOD, and that strengthens belief in myself....    It is all a matter of personal choice....  :heart:


:sun:


--------------------
Uni-VersALL      MasterPeace
eMotive  :sun: Divinity NowThere Infinity :sun:  eMelody

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Offlineadam_p88
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Re: god proof [Re: eMotionALLmotion]
    #3951446 - 03/21/05 10:04 PM (19 years, 1 day ago)

I think to myself: Since the Universe, or the meanings of those things which the Universe contains, only have their given meanings as a consequence of Duality, nothing can have any meaning unless its opposite exists. We would have no definition for cold if heat did not exist, nor vice versa. We would have no sense of weak if something strong did not exist, nor vice versa. So, I think to myself, since something imperfect exists, something Perfect must exist, or else we would not know what something Imperfect is, or what it means to be something Imperfect. Similarly, since an imperfect or limited consciousness exists, a Perfect and unlimited consciousness must exist. Once again, if it did not, we could not know what an imperfect consciousness was, or what something finite was.

So, I think, if this Unlimited, Perfect being exists, let us call him by any name, be it Allah, God, Yahweh, Vishnu, etc. For what we call him does not affect him at all. Why? Because if anything we did or said affected him, He would not be Unaffectable, for to be affected by something shows that the thing that affects has power over the thing which is affected, and if we had power over this One Mind, this Absolute Being, then it would not be perfect by definition. Since we are obviously not perfect, we can see that the being which we call God can not be affected by us, as proven above.

If we cannot affect God, it follows for us to ask, Why should one worship Him? The answer lies that the goal of worship is not to affect God, but to affect ourselves. For God to be Perfect, He must have existed before Time. If He existed before Time, then He existed before Existance, because Time begins when Existance begins (in terms of the Existence of the Universe). So, If this being we call God existed before Time, then He is Eternal and Timeless. It would follow that since he was a Supreme Consciousness and posessor of all Truth and Knowledge (for if He possessed not all of the preceding he would not be Perfect), that He should want to Create so as to give meaning to Truth. And thus He is known as the Origin of the Universe, as it followed from Him. Whether you believe in Evolution of Creationism is irrelevant, the fact is that the source of Universal Existence is in fact God, as proven above. It can be seen that when One creates something, he maps a part of Himself onto his Creation. When a writer writes something, a part of Himself is illustrated in his points or in his characters. When an artist paints something, a part of himself shows through the paint. Similar is the case when a musician writes some form of music, or a sculptor sculpts a sculpture; the imprint of his hands upon that which he has made is a characteristic of the thing made. So, it would follow that if God made the Universe (by which means above is irrelevant to the matter at hand) that that which He created should have a "handprint" of God upon it. In other words, its original essence should be the Will of God, or the essence of God's All-Benevolent nature. It would follow that if ultimately the nature of Creation is a Good one, to lead a good life would be to follow the Will of God. Actions done following the will of God constitute the thing known as piety. As a consequence of Free Will, the ultimate gift which proves the All Benevolence of God (So Benevolent is He that He gives his Creation the choice to disbelieve in Him and to go against his Will) man has the capacity for evil and for falsehood. It would follow that while doing these things might bring some form of temporary pleasure, the pleasure brought by doing good and following Truth should be more greater and lasting, as doing such would be to follow the Will of God. It would follow that leading a pious life would be to follow the Will of God, and thus the best choice of way of life to achieve personal peace and happiness. To follow or know Truth is also the highest pleasure as this constitutes the knowing of God, as all Knowledge can be summed up in the statement: "God Is." and whoever knows this knows all things.

None can say only one religion is right and all others are wrong. To say this is foolish, for all religions come from the same Source, the One God whom all religions have had originally as Source. To follow any religion which encourages good life and a relationship with the Creator is to lead a good life.

So, regardless of religion we are all brothers and sisters to one another. We are all members of one family under one Original Consciousness.

This is what I thought to myself.

Adam

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InvisibleBillyGrass
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Re: god proof [Re: adam_p88]
    #3952314 - 03/22/05 03:01 AM (19 years, 1 day ago)

eMotionALLmotion: I think you are so right! Even if GOD is merely our own "observer", the all powerful part of OURSELVES, that influences everything around and inside us, does that make GOD any less wonderful?

Oh boy! This turned into a good thread.

adam p88: Most (western) religions lump EVERY act into the very limited catagories of GOOD vs EVIL. This is SOOO outdated. We need a better gradient scale, wouldn't you say? Like AWESOME THINGS, GOOD THINGS, NOT SO GOOD THINGS, REALLY BAD STUFF, etc...

There is this film called "What the Bleep(#@*%) Do We Know?". You can find it circulating on Gnutella or Kazaa or other file share program. WORTH THE DOWNLOAD! (it's supposed to be "What the Fuck Do We Know?")

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Offlinea_h_w
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Re: god proof [Re: BillyGrass]
    #3952408 - 03/22/05 05:13 AM (19 years, 1 day ago)

all I know is that I'm here, I exist. the planet around me is true, the earth, the water, fire and air. all the trees and their million leaves. all the animals and flowers. rocks, volcanoes, seas and rivers, deserts and lakes. life spreading and blooming in a mind-blowing multiplicity of forms.

I don't need anything more to fulfill my soul. life is so rich and mystical in its own nature.

why worry about god?

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InvisibleAutonomous
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #3953045 - 03/22/05 10:45 AM (19 years, 1 day ago)

God is a concept, nothing more.


--------------------
"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain

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OfflineGomp
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Re: god proof [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #3953694 - 03/22/05 01:13 PM (19 years, 1 day ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Well, each man, no matter how religious has his own god, or image of god. Because any image of god, or a vision of god, or a description of god is a reduction of god to something less than god.
I even doubt that you can think about god, because you are reducing it to less than everything and ultimate.
You can perhapse live god, and be god (be one with god), but there is nothing to be said about god.

What can be said about being? Well, what is just is, you can't describe it. You can only be being, nothing else.




:sun: :thumbup:
:heart:


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?

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Offlineadam_p88
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Re: god proof [Re: BillyGrass]
    #3967150 - 03/24/05 11:06 PM (18 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

BillyGrass said:
adam p88: Most (western) religions lump EVERY act into the very limited catagories of GOOD vs EVIL. This is SOOO outdated. We need a better gradient scale, wouldn't you say? Like AWESOME THINGS, GOOD THINGS, NOT SO GOOD THINGS, REALLY  BAD STUFF, etc...





In your suggestion of a new gradient scale, you mention the words "good" and "bad". In the current system of evaluation of the nature of a thing or action, there are already different levels of "good" and "bad". So in a sense, your system already exists.

A point has been made, I cannot recall by whom, that cold and evil do not really exist. For what is cold but the absence of heat? And what is evil but the absence of good? Thus, those who are truly evil are those who have no good in them. So, it is unrealistic to ever think any person was ever truly evil.

I suppose in the judging of one's self, one must look to the majority of one's acts. Are the majority of one's acts "good" or are the majority "evil"? The problem lies in the individual's personal definition of something good and something evil. Perhaps this is what led Socrates to conclude that no one would ever do a bad thing, for the sheer reason that the deed they did they did not consider bad, and thus it was not a bad thing to do for them.

Notice how everything we study and attempt to explain leads into something else? The Universe is One.. :mushroom2:

Adam

Edited by adam_p88 (03/24/05 11:21 PM)

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Offlinepaisley1123
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Re: god proof [Re: shroomydan]
    #5721128 - 06/06/06 10:56 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thank you very much for putting in the original "Pascal's Wager" text. It's interesting, if you read it. The whole chart thing is an implication of what he's saying; he doesn't actually outline the exact conclusions the chart draws. Pascal's pretty good with math, but his philosophical writings are his most interesting

Thanks

Edited by paisley1123 (06/06/06 10:59 PM)

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Offlinewilshire
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #5721200 - 06/06/06 11:12 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

this is known as pascal's wager, and it's flawed for a few reasons.

the biggest is: what if you believe in the wrong god?

good reading on it here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#pascal

and much more here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/wager.html



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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: wilshire]
    #5721335 - 06/06/06 11:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I can put a person inside of a box that proves the existence of God to them.

Would you believe in God if you witnessed an impossible miracle?
And then another one, just to back up the first one, and then another one just to back up the other two?
Would that be enough for you?
Or do you need more than that?
What exactly do you need?

In the old days you'd need a Temple.
A place that surrounded you with Art
So that if you turned east or west, or north or south
Your mind would be filled with certain images or symbols
And this would be enough to enter into a trance to communicate directly with God.

But things don't work like that anymore.
It's even more simple now.

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #5722086 - 06/07/06 06:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

TheShroomHermit said:
A friend once drew this chart for me, and said it was the most convincing arguement to believe in god that she has ever seen.

......................God exists...............God doesn?t exist
Believe.............Infinite pleasure.......Finite pain
Don?t believe.....Infinite pain.............Finite pleasure

If you don?t believe, and when you die you just rot, then your existence was wholly pleasurable. If you do believe, and when you die thats it, then your existence was wholly painful. But if you don?t believe, and that turns out to be wrong, you spend the forever in pain. But your existence was not wholly painful. If you believe, and you turn out to be right, you spend forever in pleasure. But your existence was not wholly pleasurable, either.

But this chart compares only two groups, believers of a monotheistic (belief in god) with a ?heaven-hell? scenario as an afterlife, and while everyone else, including those who believe in a different god or gods, are lumped into the ?don?t believe? category. I think this chart was designed so simply to ignores a strong, real-life, point. Why have hundreds of religions claimed to be the one true faith, and how can you discount hundreds of religions by believing in just one? Each has its own wide base of believers, of which there are many willing to die for their belief. Going by the chart, if billions of people are picking the wrong god, they will live a wholly painful existence. There isn?t a way to tell for sure if you?ve picked right, and your chances of picking the one right one are terrible. Much less than 1%, if you go by how many religions there are to choose from.

And it seems pPlenty of people go to church as ?just in case? patrons of that faith. Of course, nobody wants to spend existence in infinite pain, but should the fear of that be enough to perpetuate the very rules that caused that fear? To me, it was a great liberation when I realized that the biggest argument for believing in god is a looped; you first must believe to be afraid of not believing.




all these religions believe in the same god, but in different ways, some are more foolish in their aproximation of devine truth, some less foolish, neither is 100% accurate.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5722088 - 06/07/06 06:58 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
I can put a person inside of a box that proves the existence of God to them.

Would you believe in God if you witnessed an impossible miracle?
And then another one, just to back up the first one, and then another one just to back up the other two?
Would that be enough for you?
Or do you need more than that?
What exactly do you need?

In the old days you'd need a Temple.
A place that surrounded you with Art
So that if you turned east or west, or north or south
Your mind would be filled with certain images or symbols
And this would be enough to enter into a trance to communicate directly with God.

But things don't work like that anymore.
It's even more simple now.




you can't see a miracle if you don't believe in miracles.
Even if you see that which is a miracle for believers, it won't be a miracle for you because you don't believe.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: god proof [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5722293 - 06/07/06 09:41 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If any definition of god doesn't help you fullfill a better life then that definition of god useless.

What god is, is it energy, is it a supreme being, is it everything, is it us, is it nothing, is it a concept, is it all the above, is it even a part of evil, is it something thats inconceivable from the human mind and pointless talk about, is it anything good which opposes bad, is it the father of jesus, is it allah, is it visnu,

I say who knows, the truth of it all is that we know theres more than meets the eye, some people are sick of other peoples rants about god and say hey I rather be in hell, others are confused, being condemned to hell shows no mercery which is a contridiction to the nature our being, for we were born in a world of duality, good and evil, knowledge and ignorance, and what is "free will" when your only are free to the extent of the circumstances you live in.

But we all must take responsiblity for our circumstances in our lives, I for one don't really even think about god 95% of the time, If there is one teaching that I do agree with Buddha, is that I don't concern myself with what I don't know, raving about how I found god, and saying I found proof, is only good for the person that believes it, for many it looks silly, for it seems to me that we could interpret anything as proof, this is the birth of self rightousness in opinion, and orgin of destruction, I can't stand people who claim they know something, and they're special, and superior in a certain light, because if they really were I doubt they would continuely have to profess it, to me this is the least humbling stance that a person can have and the biggest turn off.

These people continually profess, postulate, assume, things that really show nothing but their ignorance. I don't have all the answers, maybe its nothing about knowing, but still I can't adopt this behavior, to me truly wise people are just what they are, wise.

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Re: god proof [Re: capliberty]
    #5722658 - 06/07/06 12:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Humans are weak minded,.. and as something crosses there mind that is that important as what happens after death, they must believe or else.

Peace.
Octavius

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: Octavius]
    #5722925 - 06/07/06 01:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

oldwood said-"you can't see a miracle if you don't believe in miracles.
Even if you see that which is a miracle for believers, it won't be a miracle for you because you don't believe."


when you see a bullet with a tip made of lead, turn into solid gold in your hand, it doesn't matter if you believe in it or not.
it happened.

you can see miracles without believing in them

but more commonly, what happens is one will witness a miracle and then totally forget about it the next day.
and the fact that people do forget so easily, that isn't because they don't believe, it's because they are stupid, lol.

most people need to see miracles happen more than once to believe in them, that much is true.

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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5723390 - 06/07/06 04:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

If I seen a lead bullet turn into gold, I would definitely believe in a supernatural being with a higher level of consciousness, that much I could say for sure.

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Re: god proof [Re: shroomydan]
    #5723660 - 06/07/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Pascal said:
Let us then examine this point, and say, "God is, or He is not." But to which side shall we incline? Reason can decide nothing here. There is an infinite chaos which separated us. A game is being played at the extremity of this infinite distance where heads or tails will turn up.




The coin is an abstract one which will never be flipped.

Quote:


What will you wager? According to reason, you can do neither the one thing nor the other; according to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.




Sounds great.

Quote:


Do not, then, reprove for error those who have made a choice; for you know nothing about it.




Yes, making a choice to believe in something that will never be substantiated is to be accepted because "one knows nothing about them making their choice". :lol:

Quote:


Yes; but you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked.




It is not optional, eh? I don't believe it is to be demonstrated exactly how this is not optional. I am in no manner forced to choose to believe that Saddam Hussein has installments on the surface of Mars or not... so what is the difference between these two choices that necessitates that one of them is not optional? :rolleyes: Cannot the jury remain out? :confused:

Quote:


Which will you choose then? Let us see. Since you must choose...




He has already accepted as evident something which has absolutely no basis. Since we must choose? Well, we do not have to make a choice. The fact that his point and analysis rests upon a faulty assumption, it is baseless, and needs not be addressed.

To feel compelled to believe in something when one has no means to actually know and understand the nature of what they wish to believe in is ridiculous, and it is detrimental to one's ability to effectively navigate reality, as one's mind does not accurately reflect reality and its nature as it can be directly perceived.

A sign at a church on my way to work proclaims:

"Love God.
Love others."


:lol:

Why don't we focus inward on our experience of reality, and bring awareness into our direct perception of reality, to exist in direct communion with reality, as reality. To do so would negate the need for such meaningless suggestions. Talk of God, an abstract concept, as though it were an absolute aspect of reality, is inherently obstructive of one's direct perception and subsequent understanding of reality.

Do we really need God? :shrug: :lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5725274 - 06/08/06 12:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The proof of God’s existence rests with the etymology of languages. The first word of any language is the infinitive of “to be”. Who are we except human beings? So, what being is God?

The state of our human being is transient from past, present or future. Yet, God’s being is always in the present. He doesn’t change with time or dimensions.

William Shakespeare posed us a question: “To be or not to be”? Many of us may have neglected to ponder the answer.

If we as human beings were to ponder upon the message of the Apostle Paul, we would learn that God calls all things to transit from our state of existence of: “be not” to “be” and back again to “be not”.

Rom.4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Ultimately, the proof of God’s existence is in his name which is not I WAS or I WILL BE, rather I AM.

Exod.3:14 And God said unto Moses, I am that I am: Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

Edited by solemntruth (06/08/06 12:17 AM)

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5725727 - 06/08/06 04:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Why don't we focus inward on our experience of reality, and bring awareness into our direct perception of reality, to exist in direct communion with reality, as reality. To do so would negate the need for such meaningless suggestions. Talk of God, an abstract concept, as though it were an absolute aspect of reality, is inherently obstructive of one's direct perception and subsequent understanding of reality.




Exactly what is your interpretation of "God" - (Logos, whether called Allah, Brahman, Jehovah, etc) ? Is it strictly in the fundamentalist sense (ie, bearded guy in the sky) or do you reject the possibility of anything outside what is registered by human sense data? What about the contention of the preceding Ground of Being by Gnostics, the Clear Light of Buddhists, the "Beloved Spectacle" of Sufis?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5725892 - 06/08/06 06:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

It's impossible to find proof of god right now because god means so many things.
For some it is an abstract concept, for others it is some kind of oneness of the universe, for others it is some kind of a spirit within all things, for some it is a singular entity with great power with a specific relationship with human race..
Some give god to little credit and deminish him, others give him too much credit and absolutise him, others relativise him.


really how do you find proof of something that you can't make up your mind what it is?

Imagine if someone sent to you to the marketplace to find a Thing, and they just said you should buy The Thing. What would you buy? And where would you even look for it?

Everyone comes here with their own vision of what god is and then a discussion begins, while the only thing all have in common is the word god. It's funny really.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5725898 - 06/08/06 07:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:

Do we really need God? :shrug: :lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




Some people need god, some don't, but that question excludes the possibility that god is something real.
Supose god is real in that way as it is described in the Bible,
did citisens of Gomorah need god? Certainly not, but it was besides the point because they got burned by god for real wheather they accepted him as a part of reality or not. Also they may have chosen not to believe and worship in such a cruel god, but again he had power over them right or wrong, and that didn't save them from disaster.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlinekotik
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Re: god proof [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5725921 - 06/08/06 07:19 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

ive always had a theory that when you die, you exist as your last thought, until it finally gets absorbed into the aether (for lack of a better term?)

so i guess if you are in the middle of a nightmare...

bring a camera  :wink:


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: god proof [Re: kotik]
    #5726219 - 06/08/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You can kind of relate to god as a person who takes care of a small fish aquarium,

the person who takes care of a small fish aquarium, sets up the aquarium or creates a world, which is the fishes world, he also dictates what fish are going to swim and live in aquarium to create a perfect habitat, big fish or aggressive fish maybe rejected because of imbalanced ecosystem,

the fish depend on the higher conscious for food, regulation of temperature, law, meaning population control, weeding out bad fish, PH level, equivalent to air etc. If the environment is instable fish die or live in stressed environment, maybe the owner loses interest and stops feeding them, sometimes the owner may want to revamp the ecosystem,

but the main objective is create a beautiful environment, in which he can observe and be entertained, if it happens on smaller level with simpler animals, is it unreasonable to speculate that happens on the larger with more complex animals, and the owner having even more control. In his eyes we're nothing but simple fish that act and react in an aquarium which is the world.

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Re: god proof [Re: capliberty]
    #5726322 - 06/08/06 11:08 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:

Well, each man, no matter how religious has his own god, or image of god. Because any image of god, or a vision of god, or a description of god is a reduction of god to something less than god.
I even doubt that you can think about god, because you are reducing it to less than everything and ultimate.
You can perhapse live god, and be god (be one with god), but there is nothing to be said about god.

What can be said about being? Well, what is just is, you can't describe it. You can only be being, nothing else.





I 100% support your opinion!

Thank you very much!


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Offlineultrafeel
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G.O.D. [Re: ultrafeel]
    #5726363 - 06/08/06 11:20 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

But let us try this one:

Imagine there is indeed god, whatever it is (some 'personal perfect entity', some 'energy', a 'spirit', whatever)

Imagine after death, you finally see him/her/it.

You shout: "Wow, finally I see you, from 'face to face'!"


really think about this.
Maybe you 'see' him/her/it, or you 'feel'the presence of some enormous love, or you confront infinity/eternety which you identify as god, or however the 'contact' will look like.

So, there is god, and there is you.

:confused: But then: WHO ARE YOU THEN?!

There is god in its infinite glory, BUT WHO IS WATCHING THIS GOD ?!?!



Folks, if you really dig deep into this, enlightenment is very close...!!

:thumbup: :laugh:  :thumbup:


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Re: god proof [Re: ultrafeel]
    #5726680 - 06/08/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ultrafeel said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:

Well, each man, no matter how religious has his own god, or image of god. Because any image of god, or a vision of god, or a description of god is a reduction of god to something less than god.
I even doubt that you can think about god, because you are reducing it to less than everything and ultimate.
You can perhapse live god, and be god (be one with god), but there is nothing to be said about god.

What can be said about being? Well, what is just is, you can't describe it. You can only be being, nothing else.





I 100% support your opinion!

Thank you very much!




where did you dig up that old quote, it must have been a year since then


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: G.O.D. [Re: ultrafeel]
    #5726697 - 06/08/06 01:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ultrafeel said:
But let us try this one:

Imagine there is indeed god, whatever it is (some 'personal perfect entity', some 'energy', a 'spirit', whatever)

Imagine after death, you finally see him/her/it.

You shout: "Wow, finally I see you, from 'face to face'!"


really think about this.
Maybe you 'see' him/her/it, or you 'feel'the presence of some enormous love, or you confront infinity/eternety which you identify as god, or however the 'contact' will look like.

So, there is god, and there is you.

:confused: But then: WHO ARE YOU THEN?!

There is god in its infinite glory, BUT WHO IS WATCHING THIS GOD ?!?!



Folks, if you really dig deep into this, enlightenment is very close...!!

:thumbup: :laugh:  :thumbup:




I can see what you mean, but the god you speak of is a little different from the Jewish god, in fact it is above him.
You can look at Jehowah/Father/Alah, but you can't look at this philosophical god you are talking about, because you are a part of him.
On the other hand the Jehowah/Father/Alah is a separate being from you, and you are his creation. He is the master of all you can touch and see and of the other world, but he is not the essence of the universe, simply the master, like a boss in a company. The boss is not the company, it is simply the supreme part of it.

There is a difference between these two gods


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine

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Offlineultrafeel
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Re: G.O.D. [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5727005 - 06/08/06 02:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

There is a difference between these two gods




There might be a difference between various gods, but there is only one consciousness watching all the gods...!

If we 'find' this 'one consciousness', what will happen?  :confused:


:sun:


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: G.O.D. [Re: ultrafeel]
    #5727431 - 06/08/06 04:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

as soon as a persons memory is erased, they have to start over, understanding to harness fire or find food.

the tribe encounters sickness or disease or famine, it is suffering, it is evil.
or if there is abundance of health, then it is joy and good.

most of life in the universe is very healthy and well put together.
humans are weird for many reasons, that's not the issue here.

so what happens is the tribe ascribes names for the powers that be-
like SunLight, or Fire, or Fertility, or Destruction, or whatever.
And these descriptive names become gods.
or godforms within the godhead.

then eventually the tribe comes to the astonishing realization that the whole time there was only One God behind everything, and we were only seeing different masks of the same being.

once this realization occurs, next comes the conculsion that eventually at the end of things, we are pretty much all the same person.
and you are responsible for co-creating all the death and life upon the face of the earth somehow mysteriously between your own personal interaction with God, who is you, who is me, who is everyone involved with us.

when you find this one consciousness, i'll tell you what will happen.
you will have a choice, you can die and enter heaven.
or, you can come, as a teacher or prophet
or, you can join with the darkness, using the information you've drawn about things to manipulate things according to your mental logic rather than your heart.
or you can agree to totally forget about it, which is the way most of us want it.

when you attain to union with God
you're going to realize that everyone who has similar DNA structures, are all apart of a greater being.
as if to say, we are all essentially more than one person.
more specifically you might say, there are 12 types.
or 36 types.
and as we move through a singularity effect, we are squished into One Being. (or 36 primaries, into twelve, into a single thirteenth.)

think of a black hole, before it destroys everything, at first what it's gonna do is reduce everything to its primary components
the periodic table of elements.
now imagine every single atom entering the singlarity just becoming ONE Master Atom, so there is just one Master Hydrogen, and One Master Nitrogen, and One Master Gold atom or whatever.

The same thing happens with all the cats, or dogs, or people.

So when you become One with All Consciousness
It's like you have x-ray vision suddenly, and you can see through walls or anything North South East and West
It will seem as if you are rising
And this landscape comes into focus
Then you will notice ancestors out there- in the beyond as if a mile away, but you can see them, as a tiny point of light usually, in your minds eye. tapped into the earths consciousness grids then you will volley messages and signals back and forth with them across the entire globe. (using gesture & glance)
and you will remember these ancestors only while you are in this Union with the One (technically we are still at Union with Many but...)
you will suddenly remember many things about your family spirit, your tribe, yourself which is infact many many people at once.
and then you will realize that you are very close with God, and the entire world is co-created and governed and managed by your own personal relationship with God. The things you are doing are effecting things. and, those who understand Oneness, they Knowing Uphold Creation, while people who "know not what they do" they are Unknowingly Upholding Creation.

Many people chose to forget and not remember for the simple reason that the responsibility of knowing is a duty that isn't worth the reward of knowing, to most people.

when you become one with all, lessons come each time
it is like witnessing the end of all things
because it is the timeless space that is the beginning and ending
you will feel sadness, but fear cannot exist where you are, only love
and there will be other beings about you, family and friends, and they are sad too.
but there will be great joy too that compliments the sorrow,
knowing that WE are ALL in the SAME boat together in this.
And what we did together was we created a vast universe of Life and Love, every thought you ever had- you created that.
and whenever you created things together with other people, you're essentially shooting your energy across the entire planet then.
this is why some hermit prophets, or powerful artist never say a word about what they know, (except maybe in code for only the family to hear) there is great power in secrecy sometimes.

you cannot reach One Consciousness without Honesty.
and when you become Honest, you will have access to it freely.
In fact that is the only way. (Honesty & Love)

Honesty isn't always pretty, it's a tender area, and often sore.
It can be awful or comical.
hONEsty is AtONEment to be true purely honest on all levels is Sinlessness which can only be touched by a Christed Being.
In the muddle of the Lie-Cycle, sinners can teach us alot about ourselves for we are all together on this- which is why people are so scared to look at IT.
Look at a guy like Charles Manson, or G.G. Allin.
Sometimes people have see them as spiritual or Godlike.
It is because they were being Honest on certain high levels , yes.
But very dishonest on other levels.

Becoming Honest with yourself and the world is the same as uncovering Mystery.
You can think of a human mind as a rubics cube, and it's thoughts are shapes, chaotic shapes that can come into a perfect order sometimes, with a little love
In the End, for Human Beings, if you are working with Oneness & the Light, eventually it all comes down to One Thing-
Womanhood is Mystery.
She is the embodiment of mystery because the womb itself is a natural organic Zero Point Machine.
Zero Point is the place where all reality and existence comes into place. namely Life itself, and specifically yours and mine.

when you finally realize that it all comes down to this trinity of Male and Female and Child(which is neither and both, and defines 3=4).
and thusly, if you begin to make a study of human relationships and child development, pregnancy, the processes of human life, mostly the geometries of the human body-
if you really take a close look at the human body, you will find evidence of proof of god within there, for sure.
God hid the secrets of becoming God in a place he knew that nobody would ever look for it.
Within our own hearts.
As we approach the end of human history again, we are becoming wise to the clever ways he tests us.


Edited by Telepylus (06/08/06 04:28 PM)

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Invisibledorkus
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Re: G.O.D. [Re: Telepylus]
    #5727453 - 06/08/06 04:16 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What a wonderful post. I mean WOW!

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Re: god proof [Re: MAGnum]
    #5727589 - 06/08/06 04:53 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Magnum said:
When you love, you are bennefitting and adding to the kingdom of God!




But why does it have to benefit and add to the [kingdom of God!]? Why can't it just be love?


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Re: god proof [Re: demiu5]
    #5727675 - 06/08/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

God has everything to do with everything. God is the Source of Love.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5727705 - 06/08/06 05:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

not to someone who doesn't believe


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Re: god proof [Re: demiu5]
    #5727707 - 06/08/06 05:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That's the way she goes


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: god proof [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5727741 - 06/08/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Some people need god, some don't




No one needs an abstract concept as such, no.

Quote:


but that question excludes the possibility that god is something real.




No it doesn't. It realizes that referencing a God is an abstract concept, based on an aspect of reality or not (which, the entire point was, of course, that one cannot know if it is an aspect of reality or not, and that we must "wager" on it :lol:).

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Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5727750 - 06/08/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Exactly what is your interpretation of "God" - (Logos, whether called Allah, Brahman, Jehovah, etc) ?




My interpretation is not the issue. :smirk:

Quote:


do you reject the possibility of anything outside what is registered by human sense data?




No possibillity has been rejected. Please demonstrate where such possibillity has been rejected, clearly reproducing such rejection in a manner that will effectively show where and how such rejection occured.

Quote:


What about the contention of the preceding Ground of Being by Gnostics, the Clear Light of Buddhists, the "Beloved Spectacle" of Sufis?




What about it?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #5727755 - 06/08/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Or what if you're wasting your only life and short time in existence believing in something that's as true as the easter bunny? All I see everywhere is scare tactics to believe in god and surrender your free will.

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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5727763 - 06/08/06 06:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
God has everything to do with everything. God is the Source of Love.




God is an idea, a word and a vocal frequency which exists as nothing more than that. The "Source Of Love" is the "Source Of Love". Reality is reality.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: stantonfreedom]
    #5727769 - 06/08/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

stantonfreedom said:
Or what if you're wasting your only life and short time in existence believing in something that's as true as the easter bunny? All I see everywhere is scare tactics to believe in god and surrender your free will.




Ah yeah, good ole' God the authority figure. The church is big on that interpretation IME.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5727770 - 06/08/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

My interpretation is not the issue.




I'm just curious - just trying to understand where you're coming from  :smirk:

Quote:

No possibillity has been rejected. Please demonstrate where such possibillity has been rejected, clearly reproducing such rejection in a manner that will effectively show where and how such rejection occured.




I was just asking a question.

Quote:

What about it?




Well, is there anything wrong with calling the Ground of Being, the Clear Light *gasp* "God"?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5727773 - 06/08/06 06:07 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
God has everything to do with everything. God is the Source of Love.




God is an idea, a word and a vocal frequency which exists as nothing more than that. The "Source Of Love" is the "Source Of Love". Reality is reality.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




God is God, an idea is an idea.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: god proof [Re: stantonfreedom]
    #5727831 - 06/08/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

stantonfreedom said:
Or what if you're wasting your only life and short time in existence believing in something that's as true as the easter bunny? All I see everywhere is scare tactics to believe in god and surrender your free will.




I know what a bunch of lunatics,

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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5727864 - 06/08/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
God is God, an idea is an idea.




God is an idea, reality is self-evident.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5727873 - 06/08/06 06:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
God is God, an idea is an idea.




God is an idea, reality is self-evident.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:




God is self-evident :smirk:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5727880 - 06/08/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Why spend so much energy arguing whether to call it Energy, Reality, Self, Big Mind, Brahman, Dog or God?

:grin:

It seems like a neverending story to me. :wink:

(eta; She is a girl and she is 5.)

Edited by dr_mandelbrot (06/08/06 06:38 PM)

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Re: god proof [Re: dorkus]
    #5727893 - 06/08/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The Holy One and the Great Love are my favorite nicknames for "God"


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

Edited by Basilides (06/08/06 06:46 PM)

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Re: god proof [Re: dorkus]
    #5727894 - 06/08/06 06:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dr_mandelbrot said:
Why spend so much energy arguing whether to call it Energy, Reality, Self, Big Mind, Brahman, Dog or God?

:grin:

It seems like a neverending story to me. :wink:

(eta; She is a girl and she is 5.)





Last time I checked, She came to Light the Lamp for EveryOne.


--------------------

Law of Love

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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #5727938 - 06/08/06 06:52 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You can't reason your way to eternity. It's already here, right now.

I see the fundamental problem not so much a question of wether or not GOD exists, but wether or not people are willing to surrender the external definiton of who they are, anchored by their ego, as their true essence. Instead of trying to rationalize proof of "God" or a lack thereof, I think most people in this society would greatly benefit from quietting their internal dialogue instead.

It's happening every moment. Soak it up, stop grasping at it. Focus your intention on what you're manifesting with all your thoughts and actions, instead of feeding a model or intellectual construct with that energy. Those things are just maps and in the words of R.A.Wilson: The map is not the territory.

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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5727957 - 06/08/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
The Holy One and the Great Love are my favorite nicknames for "God"




Where can the Holy One be found?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5727963 - 06/08/06 07:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Cleave a piece of wood, lift a rock


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5727976 - 06/08/06 07:06 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Ok I've just done both, and I didn't see anyone. What am I doing wrong?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5727990 - 06/08/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

God/Supreme force/consciousness exists outside of time and space! When you learn how to transcend time and space you will start getting answers.

Religions praise perfectionalism and because trying to be perfect/find perfect place under religion, failure becomes inevitably and often. Fear of failure then leads to unrelenting anxiety, only fleetingly relieve by occasional feelings of accomplishment and success.

But the thing is every failure leads to self-anger/hatred for being weak and to anger and rage towards "THOSE" we think make us feel that way. But because parents and cultures and society demand that we suppress these feelings as being socially unaccpetable. Furthermore, so painful are they that the mind goes till further and represses them, and thus prevents them from ever rising into awareness.

The repression leads to depression, which is a feeling of hopelessness, helplessness and weakness. This is occasionally relieve by anger, which is welcomed for its feeling of power and strength. Over the long term depression can cause changes in the brains chemistry. Then regardless of later achievements and successes, deep down there is still a feeling of worthlessness often there for the remainder of ones life. Even drugs or therapy may not relieve this feeling.

However since repression/expression is a polar pair, what is repressed must be expressed. The mind does this in a way that concels what is repressed. Self hatred is converted into the hatred of the controllers. This is where the ego is at it's most supreme and thinks "I will get them before they get me" Or the self hatred is converted into illness thereby earning ones own grief and sadness of others which then is converted into turning back to religion, who actually got them to the state they were in, in the first place.

Sort of see the cycle do you? The last thing I want to do is offend anyone, but that is what religions do to people.

People are allowed to believe whatever they want to believe. Some choose to put blind faith into what they believe instead of actually asking questions and seeking.
There is no problem with that at all if the person is happy.

When you realise that objective reality (observed by another) is exactly the same as subjective reality (observed in your head) since all external observers are only images in your mind. Objective reality becomes nothing but an appearance or image in your mind, just as subjective reality.

The world in your mind is the only world that you can perceive directly. All bodies and other objects in this world are nothing but images in your mind.

Therefore when you realise they both the same then there is no need for conflict. Everyone needs to go on their own journey for the truth, those who are happy finding the truth by putting blind faith and not seeking the answers themselves then that is ok too. THERE is not right or wrong answer!

You see Time and Space is an illusion. All concepts that we have are branched off from those two main concepts.

Space makes us feel separate, and in turn makes us feel like an individual. Hence the ego is born (false self) and more concepts are born from fear/desire and what the ego wants. When you realise the feelings you are feeling aren't yours and that all these feelings are born from the ego, you start to wonder, I shouldn't be feeling this because the ego is only an image in your mind. Then you are able to disidentify with your ego, so you are free!

The first law of the ego, is there there is ALWAYS someone to blame. There is no “THEY”. “They” is what you have made up in your head. Since the ego is nothing but a concept, other concepts can appear to be threats to it including some concepts about the ego itself. Some of these conflict with the ego's self-esteem, such as concepts of being wrong, weak, defective, unattractive or guilty. The ego reacts to any of these threats by attacking, and thereby tends to see other seeming individuals or made up entity's as guilty, enemies or victimizers.

You see the ego always sees itself as the victim, never as the victimizer, and thus is able to justify virtually any action in defence of itself. The ego finds it very easy to ally itself with other "Concepts" because it finds strength in concepts. Since the concept of "I" requires the concept of it's polar opposite the non-"I" the "I" see's everything being into divided pairs. The concept of right necessarily requires the concept of wrong, good requires evil, God requires Satan, guilty requires innocence, light requires darkness, health requires illness, rich requires poor, knowledge requires ignorance etc. All these are merely concepts that are formed by drawing conceptual boundaries between the opposites in an inseparable pair of concepts. These boundaries are purely arbitrary and can be moved as the occasion demands. THERE IS NO GOOD/EVIL GOD/SATAN they are all concepts stemmed from the ego and made up in your mind!!!!

The ego does not exist. It is nothing but a presumption--the presumption that if thinking experiencing, or doing occurs there must be an entity that thinks experiences, or does. It is the identification of nonlocal consciousness with a thought in the mind. As a result of this identification, the experience of freedom that is really a property of the quantum self becomes limited and is falsely attributed to the ego, resulting in the assumption that the "I" entity has free will instead of being a completely conditioned product of repeated experiences.

The faith of violent clashes between religions have ended in executions massacres and wars for many many centries.
What is weird is religions often preach love without knowing what love is. Many fundamentailists interpret their god's love for them to be inseparable from its hatred for others. So they often create enemies on whom to displace their feelings of self-hatred, self fear, and self anger. Their (unrecognised) self hatred can be so unbearable that they try to compensate by believing that they are god's favoured few, and in the name of this god, endeavor to eliminate a competing religion by trying to convert, demonise or kill its adherents. Their fear of another religion or reaching can be even greater than their fear of death.

So in religion, mankind creates gods in its own images, and each religion then justifies its actions by claiming it speaks for its god. The more vengeful and punitive is the god, the more vengeful and punnitive are the people who believe in it. There for many adherents to Christianity are described as god fearing, and not god loving.

In the end, to be truely free it is about disidentifying with your ego.

Edited by Evan_1107 (06/08/06 07:15 PM)

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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5727999 - 06/08/06 07:14 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

What did you see?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: god proof [Re: Evan_1107]
    #5728030 - 06/08/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

God/Supreme force/consciousness exists outside of time and space!

First, how can something (in this case, consciousness) which arises from the coming together of various causes and conditions within space-time be transcendent of space-time (and don't say "it just is")? Second, how can you (also within space-time), know this?

You see Time and Space is an illusion.

Why not take this to the next step and recognize that reality is illusionary/like a dream/unsubstantial. It lacks any inherent existence indepedent from any causes or conditions. Reality is empty!

And yes, I agree that most organized religion is a sham and a means of control.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5728033 - 06/08/06 07:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Some wood shavings and some dirt.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5728041 - 06/08/06 07:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

That's odd. Keep trying, I guess.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5728052 - 06/08/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Some wood shavings and some dirt.




And oh how beautiful it was, wasn't it?

What you see in front of you is the clear light of the void. It is all the same.

Reality is nothing. Expectation is everything.

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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5728054 - 06/08/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:

I thought you were going to reply saying that the dirt and the wood shavings were the Holy One, I just didn't recognize them!

To which I would have replied that if the Holy One is one, without a second, if It is nondual, then why bother saying that the Holy One is One or all that other jargon? It just becomes a tautology: "God is everything" = "Everything is everything".


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibledorkus
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5728058 - 06/08/06 07:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
:lol:

I thought you were going to reply saying that the dirt and the wood shavings were the Holy One, I just didn't recognize them!

To which I would have replied that if the Holy One is one, without a second, if It is nondual, then why bother saying that the Holy One is One or all that other jargon? It just becomes a tautology: "God is everything" = "Everything is everything".




Ops.  :grin:

Can you say Fractal?

Edited by dr_mandelbrot (06/08/06 07:33 PM)

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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5728072 - 06/08/06 07:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

90% of this forum is semantical jibberish


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5728082 - 06/08/06 07:36 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:



Where can the Holy One be found?




The Holy One is brought into clear view and found by every and all consciousness centers that are Whole.

Becoming Whole is a matter of Wholesomeness.

Maintaining Wholesomeness is a matter of observing what is TRUE.
To begin with, an opinionate egotistical mind cannot differentiate between True & False.

Jesus said, "the only way to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven is if you become as little children."
This Innocence is Wholesomeness, or Holiness.

So the answer-
Where can the Holy One be found?

The Holy One is found in all things that are Wholesome & Right and Beautiful with Goodness.

It's just a matter of perspective.
Is it so awful hard to try to believe in the Power of Honest Goodness & Righteousness?
Try it for awhile, and see what happens.
I gaurantee you'll get hooked on it.
The Truth hurts at first like a sharp needle, but the dope an all-healing medicine.

It isn't your job to be perfect, or to study the bible or whatever.
Your job is simply to TRY to be Honest & Good.
And we all know that if you just TRY, you will succeed over time.

Of course honesty is going to involve trial and tribulation.
It is constantly on trial, as it's position demands it be, to arrive at Justice between the Liar and the Enemy of the Liar.


--------------------

Law of Love

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OfflineEvan_1107
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5728102 - 06/08/06 07:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Would absolutely love you guys to read the SSUN Project I have posted in the Philosophy and Spirituality secton if you haven't already and give your opinions on it.:)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5725854/an/0/page/0

Time and space are only concepts devised by man. There is no scientific reason, why the future can't determine the past, rather than the past determine the future. Past, Present, And future are all happening at the same time. It is our emotions and memories that make it seem like time is real.

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: Evan_1107]
    #5728547 - 06/08/06 09:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i wasn't gonna say anything about the SSUN project
but since you've come all this way to ask opinions i'll give you mine

i've read the thread and i'm not impressed with it
it's a pale imitation of a model already put into place called
PST Mutual Dream Network

and i say this in all honesty, after considering the vast amounts of words needed to explain practically nothing but a vague general idea which that is already totally elementary to even the most amature initiate.

The statement "time and space are only concepts devised by man"
this is not altogether true.
it's a statement coming from a mind of a person who almost has a grasp on things(probably by listening to other people, or reading books),but not totally(because if you had actually traveled time you'd know that the statement you'd made is not altogether true, and you would've said it differently.)

the SSUN project is a nice idea
and i do hope that it brings together some friends and lasting bonds into some sort of sharing of loving wisdom,

but it's nothing new, there are thousands of identical models already floating around out there, built by good intentions usually.
only very rarely do they ever lift off the ground.
good luck with your project, and i hope you find it fulfilling.

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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5728675 - 06/08/06 09:54 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Thankyou Telepylus for your honest feedback. It was however only the introduction and workshop 1, that has been presented. I will post up the 2nd Workshop for you to read now if you wouldn't mind, as I am interested if you direct me to any other links out there with this same information. I myself are only learning. From the concepts of time and space what are the concepts before they are devised?

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5728996 - 06/08/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

The Holy One is found in all things that are Wholesome & Right and Beautiful with Goodness.

It's just a matter of perspective.
Is it so awful hard to try to believe in the Power of Honest Goodness & Righteousness?


What about things that are unwholesome and bad and ugly?

Different men have different views, "good"/"bad", "wholesome"/"unwholesome" are entirely subjective. And if you say that the Holy One is one but not the other, then it would be One of the Holy, not the Holy One.

It is by creating universal codes of "right" and "wrong" that the moralistic influence of the church has really impacted society, and IMO, it's been for the worse.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5729333 - 06/09/06 01:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?  :confused:

You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder :tongue:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5729393 - 06/09/06 01:56 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


Different men have different views, "good"/"bad", "wholesome"/"unwholesome" are entirely subjective.




This statement is False.
We all know that Child Abuse, or Torturing people for example, is bad and unwholesome, and there are no two ways about it.
Just because maybe you yourself haven't devised a method to determine what is good or bad, doesn't mean that nobody else has either.
Good and Bad are not subjective, unless your trapped in a system where you can't describe what you're seeing, you can't correlate events and circumstances into clear answers of what is wholesome or unwholesome.
And especially if there is no one wholesome around you to give you any validation.
In our culture, often dishonesty & sinister deeds are greatly rewarded, while good deeds go unnoticed.

I'll tell you something else that isn't subjective.
A mother breastfeeding her child, or a fireman risking his own life to save an elderly man who he doesn't even know.
Can you say these are Evil deeds?
That this sort of wholesomeness is somehow wrong or bad?
There is a clear distinction between the soul of a person who yearns to nurture life, and a person who gets off on torturing it or destroying it.

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5729960 - 06/09/06 08:11 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?  :confused:

You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder :tongue:




:grin:

Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5729993 - 06/09/06 08:39 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

We all know that Child Abuse, or Torturing people for example, is bad and unwholesome, and there are no two ways about it.

There are no two ways about it only because you aren't considering the other point of view. The man who abuses his child doesn't think he is bad. In fact he must think that it's an important thing and that some good will result. Otherwise he would be a sadist, and a sadist is someone who mistakenly thinks that the person being hurt actually derives pleasure from being hurt, probably from a poor psychological development. Either way, the abuser generally does not consider themself to be evil or bad.

Good and Bad are not subjective

Then would you be so kind as to define what is objectively and absolutely/universally good, and what is objectively and absolutely/universally bad?

A mother breastfeeding her child, or a fireman risking his own life to save an elderly man who he doesn't even know.
Can you say these are Evil deeds?


I could if the mother had AIDS and knew it, yet was breastfeeding anyways.

There is a clear distinction between the soul of a person who yearns to nurture life, and a person who gets off on torturing it or destroying it.

I think you're looking at things only in black and white. Destruction is just as much a part of nature as construction. It's folly to think that you are somehow above creation and destruction and can look down on them and declare one to be good and the other to be bad. They are interdependent and becoming attached to one and averse to the other generally results in suffering because nature keeps on destroying and keeps on creating.

Furthermore, if you simply look around the world and at history, you can see how different leaders have different (subjective) views on what is right and wrong. For instance, there have been men who had a view of what was right (such as a nation free of the Jews) and were willing to do anything to see that their view came to fruition. I'll bet you and I can both agree that the Holocaust was evil, but did Hitler think it was evil? No, I don't think so. He didn't wake up one morning and think to himself "Gee, I'm feeling really evil today, I think I'll exterminate an entire population or two." Rather, he did what he thought was right and necessary.

Also, you can't say that God is only Good. If you say that, and also say that God is omniscient and omnipotent, then how do you explain the presence of evil? Just from reading your post you can tell that you agree that there is evil. But if God is only Good then there wouldn't be evil. Thus we must conclude either there is no such God, or God doesn't discriminate between good and evil. If you choose the latter, then again, who are you to label something absolutely good or evil when even God doesn't do that? How do you know that such dividing and labelling isn't evil itself?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5730698 - 06/09/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Let me try to explain in a way that you can understand.

Let's take Osama Bin Ladin as an example
And set him right beside George Bush.

In the mind of extremist muslims like Osama Bin Ladin
America is evil

The way we take our liberties in the world is unwholesome to Osama.

So they attack us, causing destruction and killing innocents who most of them are really only trying to be good and raise their families the best way they know how.

So then George bush drops bombs on the terrorists, claiming that they are Evil- in fact he even used the word "evil" to describe them.

So the world kinda sees two factions, a Christian One, and a Muslim One.

Both of these men, Osama & George, they both believe that they are Holy, and that the other is Evil.

But the Truth of the matter is both are correct.
Both are evil.
They are not evil themselves, but they allow evil to move through them due to their timespace positions.
They both allowed themselves to be trapped in something they cannot get out of.
They are both examples of warriors who have succumbed to Dishonesty, and the Father of Lies.

If they held true to what is wholesome and right they would believe in the power of god, and therefore they wouldn't need weapons to fight with.

So, your ideas of the polarities of Good & Evil being generated by the Same God, this is true.
But your conclusion that this means everything is subjective or okay, is false.

Just because osama thinks he's right, or george thinks he's right, doesn't make it true.
Because only Honesty and Love ring True.

You asked what is universally good or bad, i've given many examples already.
Bad means assuming that you have the right to decide someone elses personal liberties.
God gave us free will for a reason, and to deny any other being personal liberties is to defy God.
And this is exactly what Osama Bin Ladin does, he's under control of Satan because he's trapped into a spacetime position that he cannot escape from. Like George being trapped in the Presidency.

Basically, if you see evil happening around you, it's really not your job to destroy it, because destruction is not honest, rearrangement is honest.
It doesn't take any skill to obliterate Life.
What takes skill is negotiating with Life.

A mother doesn't give her milk to destroy hunger, hunger cannot be destroyed only altered
Her milk is a creative wholesome force of creativity to the cells of her infants body & brain.

Destruction makes things unwhole by breaking them into primary constituents.
Creation makes things Whole, and together.


--------------------

Law of Love

Edited by Telepylus (06/09/06 01:09 PM)

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Invisibledorkus
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5730774 - 06/09/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Destruction feeds life.

It's only ignorance and misunderstandings, not evil. If a baby takes a toy from another baby it is not cause it's inheritly evil. He or she just doesn't see the consequences.

Edited by dr_mandelbrot (06/09/06 01:30 PM)

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: dorkus]
    #5730803 - 06/09/06 01:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

not an accurate statement.

you could say Deconstruction feeds life.

Deconstruction is the wholesome way to reduce things to their primary elements.

Destruction is ordained upon things which are already broken in such a way that Deconstruction is a futile option.
Evil constructions will fall to destruction, and annihilation.
While wholesome things are deconstructed and recycled.
An atomic bomb blast will utterly destroy whatever it hits.
But the Wind & Water that deconstruct a stone into dust, is not destructive, it is just gently rearranging things by the might of God.
All things seek whole patterns, because whole patterns are strong to withstand destruction and deceitful patterns.

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5731452 - 06/09/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?  :confused:

You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder :tongue:




:grin:

Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.




Hey - not everyone can escape the Wheel of Life in one lifetime, I guess :smirk:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5731463 - 06/09/06 05:29 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Ok I've just done both, and I didn't see anyone. What am I doing wrong?




You aren't deluding yourself... that is what you are doing wrong. You aren't suspossed to just engage in activity and directly perceive the experience of it, you are also suspossed to operate an abstract, mental program that will assign more meaning to it. Duh! :foreheadslap:

Reality is reality, but it is also God when you delude yourself. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5731467 - 06/09/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
To which I would have replied that if the Holy One is one, without a second, if It is nondual, then why bother saying that the Holy One is One or all that other jargon? It just becomes a tautology: "God is everything" = "Everything is everything".




Precisely. "God" is ineffective in representing any aspect of reality.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5731482 - 06/09/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

yes God = EveryThing is EveryThing
Man = HalfWay to EveryWhere

dblaney, it is possible for me to give you proof of God over the computer too, but you'd have to want it bad enough to follow my instructions.

have you ever done shrooms?
we'll call that Step 1.

before we continue,
can you handle Step 1 at least?

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OfflineBasilides
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5731511 - 06/09/06 05:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Just what is reality?


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5731636 - 06/09/06 06:24 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?  :confused:

You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder :tongue:




:grin:

Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.




Hey - not everyone can escape the Wheel of Life in one lifetime, I guess :smirk:




:lol:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5731641 - 06/09/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Reality is reality, but it is also God when you delude yourself. :wink:





Sweet! That means that I'm typing this message into God RIGHT NOW! Now how many people can say that? Eh? Eh?

:cool: :tongue:


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5731644 - 06/09/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
dblaney, it is possible for me to give you proof of God over the computer too, but you'd have to want it bad enough to follow my instructions.

have you ever done shrooms?
we'll call that Step 1.

before we continue,
can you handle Step 1 at least?




Well sure! What's step 2?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5731669 - 06/09/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Just what is reality?




Reality can be anything.
But from our Human Perspective, reality is built of a Mutual Dream Network, bound together by people loving each other, and loving ideas, and loving life.
maybe this will help clarify the nature of how reality is constructed through Consciousness.
(And it must be first understood that there is only one thing in the universe: Consciousness. Even Atoms are conscious. All consciousness is is a feild of alternating Phi Ratio patterns moving through all things and connecting things into network.)
---------------------------------------------
ENOCHIAN AXIOMS.

1. Man, and every entity (thing) in existence, is in his (its) essence a monad. This monadic essence expresses itself as a subjective 'I' and an objective 'NOT-I'.
2. A monad's geometric equivalent is the sphere. The center is the 'I'. The surface of the sphere is the 'NOT-I'.
3. The 'I' is conscious individuality.
4. The 'NOT-I' is the world in which the 'I' finds itself at any given point in time and space.
5. Every geometric point in space is an 'I-NOT-I' monad in some stage of self-expression.
6. Any 'I' can communicate with any other 'I' only in so far as their 'NOT-I's' intersect.
7. A world is defined as a set of intersections of a host of 'NOT-I's' at any given point in time and space.
8. Subsets of 'I's' are mutually exclusive.
9. Subsets of 'NOT-I's' may be either exclusive or inclusive.
10. The monadic essence of each monad allows multitudinous expression, but no 'I' can ever separate itself from or exist independently of its 'NOT-I'.

THEOREMS OF ENOCHIAN PHYSICS.

1. Every person is an 'I-NOT-I' monad.
2. Every point in space is a consciousness center.
3. Energy flows from one cosmic plane or sub-plane to an adjacent cosmic plane or sub-plane through Laya centers, dimensionless points of space which serve as channels for the flow of energies and forces.
4. Spirit is unmanifested energy. Matter is manifested energy.
5. Every manifestation within space and time is dualistic.
6. Space, time, and consciousness come into existence simultaneously.
7. Every energy field and every force in our universe is directed by the True Will.



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OfflineBasilides
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5731684 - 06/09/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?  :confused:

You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder :tongue:




:grin:

Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.




Hey - not everyone can escape the Wheel of Life in one lifetime, I guess :smirk:




:lol:




So what book did you read?

I take it someone who bleeds, eats and shits wrote it?  :laugh:


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5731708 - 06/09/06 06:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

And it must be first understood that there is only one thing in the universe: Consciousness

Okay. In your post you acknowledge that there is an objective world (made up of things such as atoms).

Which came first, consciousness or the objective world?

1. If you say consciousness came first, then there would be a perceiving subject without any object to perceive. Furthermore, the object being perceived (the objective world) has a causal structure, so the only possible explanation by the "Self theory" would be that the objective world arose simultaneously with the Perceiver, consciousness. (see #3)

2. If you say that the perceived objective world came first, then you run into a problem: a perceived object cannot exist if there is no subject perceiving it - the term perceived object necessarily implies the presence of a perceiver.

3. If you say that consciousness and the objective world arose simultaneously, then you have the problem that two things that exist simultaneously cannot have any connection or relationship with each other. They cannot have the relationship of being cause and result, for example. This is because something that arises simultaneously with something else has no opportunity to be that second thing's cause. It only arises at precisely the same time as its supposed result, so how could it have produced that result? It would have had no time to do so. It can therefore only be that things that arise simultaneously do so independent of each other.

In this case, it would be impossible for the perceived object and the perceiving subject to be unrelated in the way that two things that come into existence simultaneously are unrelated, because the perceived object and perceiving subject are cause and result - the cause for there being a perceiving consciousness is that there is an object to perceive. If they arose simultaneously, however, they could not have such a relationship, because the perceived object would have no opportunity to cause the perceiving consciousness to arise.

So since consciousness and the objective world cannot exist sequentially OR simultaneously, and there is no other possibility, then we must conclude that neither consciousness nor the perceived objective world are inherently existent, since they necessarily depend on each other.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: Basilides]
    #5731713 - 06/09/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Quote:

dblaney said:
Quote:

Basilides said:
Man, what happened to you in the last few weeks?  :confused:

You seem to have undergone a massive philosophical shift. The Jesus quote has been replaced by Rotton's founder :tongue:




:grin:

Not too massive, but I have been reading a book that has shifted my metaphysical worldview and has helped get me more in touch with reality, I think.




Hey - not everyone can escape the Wheel of Life in one lifetime, I guess :smirk:




:lol:




So what book did you read?

I take it someone who bleeds, eats and shits wrote it?  :laugh:




Hehe, yeah. It's called "The Sun of Wisdom", an interpretation of the teachings of a man named Nagarjuna who lived in the second century and used logical argumentation to prove the Buddha's points.

I would highly recommend it. Or if you have more time, there is a 5 or 6 hundred page long book with an extremely in depth analysis of every verse.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5731879 - 06/09/06 07:37 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

i'll tell you what happens as the big bang unfolds.

you have the dimensions of space and time unfolding like 0=2, 0=2=3, 1+1=1, 3=4, etc... if you need examples of these concepts i'll provide them.

in this process you have what appears to be growth and expansion.
like a hole spilling out marbles, white and black or what you might call subjective and subjective aspects, male or female or positive & negative.

in this process two things will lose themselves in union to become a third thing altogether.
and it's through this interaction that makes it so hard to pinpoint where things are coming or going, where things are expanding or collapsing. because it is in fact doing both at the same time.

If you examine an inverted spheroid, what you're looking at is something which resembles the Sun, with the dense core as gravity, and the surface of spiraling energies, it is both pulling in energy through the spiral force pinwheels on the surface, toward the center(zero point, the moment of creation).
And simultaneously it can also spray yet unmanifest energy outward.

you'd have to rephrase question 3, or give me an example of what you mean.

Edited by Telepylus (06/09/06 07:54 PM)

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Re: god proof [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #5732171 - 06/09/06 09:01 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You do not prove God, you know God.

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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5732742 - 06/10/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe I'm just high, but I'm not sure how all of that relates back to the question of which came first. Would you elaborate to enlighten me, please?

As for the third argument, it's saying that the perceiving subject (which you say to be the one true reality) cannot arise simultaneously with the perceived object. If they did arise simultaneously, then they would be inherently existent and completely indepedent of each other, since they could not have any relationship such as being cause or effect. However, the perceived objective world causes the perceiving subject (one must arise from the objective world in order to perceive it[self]) to arise, so since they do indeed depend on each other, neither can be Real.

Since the perceiving subject and the perceived object cannot arise sequentially or simultaneously, neither are Real.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5733564 - 06/10/06 09:04 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

what you are saying
and the conclusions you are drawing
makes no sense

if you cannot see the underlying innermost machinations of the universe already, by what i've already said- you never will.

like the last sentence you wrote, it's absurd.
i would need some sort of an example involving a case of a subject and perceived object, and explaining how its "not real"?

rehashing old jargon gets nowhere
the concept of nihilism died and dropped of the face of the planet back in the 1980's.
lol, haven't you seen I heart huckabees yet?
lol

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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5733698 - 06/10/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
what you are saying
and the conclusions you are drawing
makes no sense




One can state that your conclusions make no sense. If you cannot demonstrate to us why they do not, then your claim that they make no sense if baseless, and might as well not be stated at all.

Quote:


if you cannot see the underlying innermost machinations of the universe already, by what i've already said- you never will.




Your way is The Way? :lol:

Quote:


the concept of nihilism died and dropped of the face of the planet back in the 1980's.




Riiight. :rolleyes: Do you even know what you are talking about?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5733743 - 06/10/06 10:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

what you are saying
and the conclusions you are drawing
makes no sense


Au contraire, it's a perfectly logical argument. Tell me what part you don't understand and I can elaborate.

if you cannot see the underlying innermost machinations of the universe already, by what i've already said- you never will.

Fine then!  :razz: Maybe I don't want to see the underlying innermost machinations of the universe! So there! :grin: :wink:

By the way, do you see/know the underlying innermost machinations of the universe?

i would need some sort of an example involving a case of a subject and perceived object, and explaining how its "not real"?

Okay, here's a nice quote that gives an example.

Quote:

Snap your fingers and then analyze by asking, "What comes first, the finger snap or the ear consciousness perceiving it?" we have to analyze based on our own experience, so how did they happen? Did the finger snap come first? Or did the ear consciousness perceiving the finger snap come first? Or did the finger snap and the ear consciousness perceiving it occur at the same time?

The snap you perceived could not have come before the consciousness that perceived it, or else there would have been a perceived object without any perceiver of that object. Similarly, the consciousness that perceived the finger snap could not have come first because then it would have preceded the finger snap that it perceived. Finally, the consciousness perceiving the finger snap and the finger snap could not have truly occurred simultaneously, because if they did, they would have been unrelated entities - the finger snap would not have been the cause of the arising of the consciousness that perceived it. Thus, they did not exist sequentially, they did not exist simultaneously, and there is no other possibility. Your finger snap and the consciousness that perceived it, therefore, were dependently arisen mere appearances that did not truly exist.




the concept of nihilism died and dropped of the face of the planet back in the 1980's.

Relevence?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineEvan_1107
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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5736765 - 06/11/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Objective reality and subjective reality are both the same as they are only images in the mind. The dual related perception of Right or Wrong does not exist in this perception. When you are able to merge the two polar pairs, that is when you become free and a new perspective on life is given. When you learn to be able to step outside your body and observe your life from a 3rd person view, whenever you like, this enables you to choose the emotions you want to and be free of all emotional attachments that makes you feel trapped. By stepping outside yourself and constantly acting from your future-self view then you are able to create a reality that you desire. There is no more fear, there is no more hatred, there is no instinctively reaction to situations you do not wish too. Yes that is what the SSUN Project teaches you to do.

A net of Jewels 1996 Ramesh says

"Belief, any belief, is based on the sense of insecurity. Only when all belief is given up are you free to know yourself. In self discovery what you find is the Truth- that Truth which is total, selfevident and which needs no outside support of justification."

Only the absolute is sacred. What I meant was, that which is sacred, is from beyond this world, is absolute. There is no 0% or 100% in our reality, only 0.0000...1% and 99.99999...%. We have conceived so much of our mathematics in terms of the absolute but really entire new realms of mathematics could be opened up based on this more accurate way of perceiving things. Things can gravitate to become an extremely biased ratio (hence the 0.0000...1% and 99.99999...%), but it is only by recognizing this and dwelling on the journey towards the absolute, and not putting what we observed up on a pedastal as having already reached this realm of the absolute, that we may transcend the border (as already recognized in the Law of Limits in Calculus) and reach the absolute INDIRECTLY.

The old perspective and reality of viewing things seems to see everything in terms of absolute, ie. "this is this, that is that, etc.". And for the most part, this is fine, since this was indeed 99.9...% this and that was 99.9...% that, but what's important to realize is how little anything is really and truly 100% it. Think about it, take it down to the atomic scale, we really need to base our thinking models off of this most fundamental truth! It will change everything!

Why? Because conflict does not come from the absolute or near-absolute, the absolute is sacred, and the near-absolute is the foundation of our reality. It comes from the more ambiguous and subjective matter in our reality, and not acknowledging it as such. By doing so, we don't have to obligate our minds to categorize everything, it can, when given sufficient evidence, but when not given sufficient evidence, the mind should be free to leave said interpretation of stimuli in a state of flux for as long as necessary, and to treat it as such.

Anyways, They key concept for this adjustment is that we no longer see things as being "good" or "bad", but as in a state of flux between those poles, or any other poles, until really, honestly and truly, sufficient evidence is given to allow the sight of said thing to float into a status of near-absolution, and no sooner.

There can be no conflict with this type of thinking, as thus, nothing at all, at all at all, is seen as "good", or "bad", or even anything else. It either is what it is, or has the potential to be two or more things, or any combination of them, in any ratio.

The issue really at hand here is our definition of "purity". What on this world is truly 100% pure? Practically nothing is! Almost everything is at least a little impure if analyzed to a deep enough degree, and contains however infinitessimally small a percentage of something else to validate my claim.

Why is this important? Because EVERYTHING can be perceived in these terms! Take opinions - what opinions do you hold that you believe in the whole 100%? Or beliefs - is there anything you believe in so strongly you would say you are 100% sure about it?

Soon one can realize that there are indeed things that are absolute, much fewer things than things that are non-absolute, and the difference between them is that those which are absolute come from the realm of the sacred - our instincts, the elements, etc. EVERYTHING ELSE is so much more subjective than we ever realized!

As you can see, the potential barrier line between being RIGHT and Wrong. You see both observers have the same consciousness and awareness. If one person observes a red object then the other person also observes a red object. That is because the consciousness collapses the wave function, thus all consciousness is universal.

So in other words the concept of objective reality rests on the assumption that there exist observers who are external to me, and who can confirm my own observations. Ever since we have been young we grew up without questioning this concept. Hmm you may begin to make sense of this if you stop to consider that, not only is objective reality supposed to be external and independent of your mind, but so also the “external” observer who you depend to confirm you own observations of objective reality.

For example, the observer who is external to you is not in fact independent of your mind at all but is part of your subjective reality. Ie image in your mind. You need to understand reality is what is, without conceptualisation. Therefore objective reality is only a concept and cannot be proved. Even though it is use for communication, for health and for survival, it does not represent reality and therefore it will bring suffering if it is taken to be real.

The only reason we suffer is because it defines external observers as being objects that are external to me, so logically I am external to them. Thus it defines me as being part of their objective reality which means that I am separate from them. As long as you identify with a separate objective you, then you will unable to realise your true nature and suffer.

Do you see that objective reality(observed by another) is EXACTLY the same as subjective reality (observed in your head) since all external observers are only images in your mind?

Objective reality becomes nothing but an appearance or image in your mind, just as subjective reality. The world in your mind is the only world that you can perceive directly. All bodies and other objects in this world are nothing but images in your mind.

This is where it gets interesting, the ego is only an image in your mind of yourself and how you perceive yourself. So the ego is subjective. The ego is born because of the concept of space makes you feel like you are separate!

Everything you feel isn't yours at all. All your feelings are based around fear and desire.

YOU ARE AS MUCH AS GOD IS, AS GOD IS HIMSELF!

Remember whatever your aware of, cannot be you. Because you are what is aware!

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: Evan_1107]
    #5737347 - 06/11/06 09:22 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Step one-
how much do you usually take when you trip?
like a heavy dose.
can you trip alone right?
if you were to meet with god, would you like to do that in your bedroom or house, or outside?
you pick.
then we can move on to step2.

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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5737356 - 06/11/06 09:29 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

I'm sorry, but a psychadelic experience is not going to substantiate the existance of any "god".

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


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:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737358 - 06/11/06 09:30 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

o so now you're calling me a liar?

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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5737370 - 06/11/06 09:40 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

:lol:

We discuss ideas here, my friend, not those who are presenting them. Whether or not you are a liar is no issue here.

For example, the appropriate thing to do would be to explain exactly how a psychadelic experience could provide substantiation for God, and then we would involve ourselves with discourse on the matter, exchanging ideas and viewpoints. This works much more effectively, and is beneficial for all involved, than simply making accusations and resorting to tatics that lower it to a personal level.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737416 - 06/11/06 10:09 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

true.
just ask the question.
don't make up lies.

if you think a psychadelic experience wont provide proof of god
have you got some evidence against the fact that it could be possible?

am i going to waste my time offering proof of god to someone who really doesn't care at all about the truth, but rather just debating endlessly for fun.


there are many many many reasons why psychadelics are directly linked to proof of god.
and i'll name them for you.

the fact that you visit shroomery, yet you say psychadelic experience is not going to substantiate any existence of "god"
that is so repugnant
i dont even know where to begin

first of all, the mushroom itself, if you examine its life cycle, it is a symbolic representation of the entire universe.
the way the dimensions spring forth from the big bang.
beginning with the point, the spore, that sends out a ray,
eventually di-karyotic mycilium, and pins, to open caps with spores again.
lol
basically
you eat some shrooms
and sit by the tv
and computer maybe and run these programs of ideas through your head
and you will seizure
and witness an impossible miracle
that will prove to you without a doubt that a god is operating behind all things, and intimately connected to you

this will scare you and you will want for forget about it

that is why earlier in this thread i ask you
how many miracles do you need?
1 or 2 or 3?
would it ever be enough?
for some people the answer is no-
they are blind to god and miracles all the time.
even the mother of christ had her doubts about her son, saying "he is beside himself". despite the fact than an angel told her he was the son god. people forget. People ignore.

or it could be that you're assuming that this "god box" that i speak of, is something brand new, that i've never used before, or had success with. if you need to talk to someone who has entered in and come back out with proof of god, i could hook you up somehow-
but is that really gonna make you believe or care?

Edited by Telepylus (06/11/06 10:16 AM)

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Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5737476 - 06/11/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
don't make up lies.




I didn't lie. :lol:

Quote:


if you think a psychadelic experience wont provide proof of god
have you got some evidence against the fact that it could be possible?




Certainly. Any experience that one has is not any form of validation of the existance of some concept that one forms in relation to the experience. A moment of increased awareness that makes you exclaim "I know God! God is real!" isn't actually any form of basis that "god" exists. Sorry.

Quote:


am i going to waste my time offering proof of god to someone who really doesn't care at all about the truth, but rather just debating endlessly for fun.




I don't know about that, but it will likely be a waste of time offering proof of God in general, as it isn't something that can be done. :smirk:

Quote:


the fact that you visit shroomery, yet you say psychadelic experience is not going to substantiate any existence of "god"
that is so repugnant
i dont even know where to begin




Yeah, whatever dude. :rolleyes:


Quote:


first of all, the mushroom itself, if you examine its life cycle, it is a symbolic representation of the entire universe.
the way the dimensions spring forth from the big bang.
beginning with the point, the spore, that sends out a ray,
eventually di-karyotic mycilium, and pins, to open caps with spores again.
lol




I see....

Quote:


basically
you eat some shrooms
and sit by the tv
and computer maybe and run these programs of ideas through your head
and you will seizure
and witness an impossible miracle
that will prove to you without a doubt that a god is operating behind all things, and intimately connected to you




Sounds like a feeling while altered on a substance, and not any sort of "proof" of the existance of such God.

I'm sorry, but you haven't in any way substantiated a proof in God, or how psychadelics offer a proof in God. The fact that feelings are generated by ourselves and that our experience lies contingent upon ourselves demonstrates that our experience simply cannot exist as substantation to the existance of some aspect of reality.

Its all in your mind, my friend.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737503 - 06/11/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You've reminded me of a Fiona Apple song:

"He said 'it's all in your head'
and I said 'so's everything'
but he didn't get it.

I thought he was a man
but he was just a little boy."

:grin:

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737679 - 06/11/06 11:37 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Any experience that one has is not any form of validation of the existance of some concept that one forms in relation to the experience. A moment of increased awareness that makes you exclaim "I know God! God is real!" isn't actually any form of basis that "god" exists.

By extension, I'm curious about your thoughts on other 'dimensional' sentient beings. For instance, with DMT one often finds oneself in another realm that seems to be inhabited by autonomous elves. These beings have been described by a seemingly significant portion of the population that has taken DMT.

To me this indicates the definite possibility that there are other sentient beings and we can perceive them when the necessary causes and conditions arise.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5737698 - 06/11/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Do you know what an archetype is?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737734 - 06/11/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you haven't even bothered to read the thread, so this has become pointless.

the key word here is Miracle.

it's so ridiculous that you use christ as an avatar yet say that
proof of god cannot be done.

you've proven you have no ideas of your own, you don't think for yourself, and you're just regurgitating some atheist attitude with no other intention but to be obnoxious, you don't listen.

i have all sorts of evidence and proof of god to share
but it's really not at the top of my priority list right now
because i get the strong feeling that truly Nobody Cares
so...

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Invisibledblaney
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Re: god proof [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5737736 - 06/11/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah.

Do you think we have an elfin archetype?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: god proof [Re: Telepylus]
    #5737760 - 06/11/06 12:03 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
you haven't even bothered to read the thread, so this has become pointless.

the key word here is Miracle.

it's so ridiculous that you use christ as an avatar yet say that
proof of god cannot be done.

you've proven you have no ideas of your own, you don't think for yourself, and you're just regurgitating some atheist attitude with no other intention but to be obnoxious, you don't listen.

i have all sorts of evidence and proof of god to share
but it's really not at the top of my priority list right now
because i get the strong feeling that truly Nobody Cares
so...




No disrespect, but what is this nonsense?

Have you read this thread, because FG certainly responded to various things you said, and that would be slightly difficult to do without reading...

you've proven you have no ideas of your own, you don't think for yourself, and you're just regurgitating some atheist attitude with no other intention but to be obnoxious, you don't listen.

:wtf:

i have all sorts of evidence and proof of god to share
but it's really not at the top of my priority list right now
because i get the strong feeling that truly Nobody Cares
so...


I've got proof of sentient spaghetti, but I'm not going to share it with you!

Come on man, if you feel you have proof that will convince people, then don't be selfish, what is it?


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

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OfflineEvan_1107
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 06/08/06
Posts: 129
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
Re: god proof [Re: dblaney]
    #5740164 - 06/11/06 11:21 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

In altered states of consciousness, you are taking down the barrier of where the conscious and subconscious minds exists. To connect to God/universal consciousness/force or whatever you like to that is how to do it. Why do people pray.. Remote influencing is prayer on steroids.

It is all about connecting. Whether you believe it or not is not an issue. EveryONE can believe whatever they want to, and to them it is true.

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