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InvisibleSwami
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God Helps Those Who Help Themselves
    #856281 - 09/01/02 08:25 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

What in the hell does this little witticism mean and how is it different from the atheist model of rewarded effort? Gee, if I am unemployed and send out 100 resumes and regularly call / visit potential employers, I will have better "luck" or "assistance from God" than if I sat home smoking a blunt and channel surfing?

This reminds me of the advertisement for a popular weight-loss product: Taking four capsules of XYZ along with regular aerobic exercise, a restricted-calorie diet and weight training will result in substantial weight loss.

Well, duh! Taking two tablespoons of dirt daily, along with regular aerobic exercise, a restricted-calorie diet and weight training will result in substantial weight loss.

Anyone care to enlighten the Swam how this mysterious assistance works and can be personally confirmed?



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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: Swami]
    #856286 - 09/01/02 08:29 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

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Edited by enter (09/01/02 08:30 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: Swami]
    #856362 - 09/01/02 09:27 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Enter is right. That little witticism is from Benjamin Franklin who was a Deist and fathered so many illegitimate children he was jokingly referred to as the father of our country.

Cheers,


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: ]
    #856411 - 09/01/02 09:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Please don't mock my great-great-great-great-great-great grandpappy...


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Offline11polakie11
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: ]
    #856415 - 09/01/02 09:51 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

and that statements comes back to the issues some people have, and that is that they make statements as if they know exactley what goes does, how god thinks and why god does what god does. Which really doesn't make him an all mysterious, profound force if some measly human can completely breakdown the psychological nature of that which created everything.

adam


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OfflineZahid
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: World Spirit]
    #856518 - 09/01/02 10:42 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

"God Helps Those Who Help Themselves" is a statement quoted by many religious people yet they fail to realize they are not quoting any particular author of the Bible. IMO this is an incorrect statement. God provides assistance to all of us on one level or another whether or not we feel that assistance is timely or adequate.

I don't think it's completely incorrect. Lets say someone is crying out to God for help regarding a certain problem (drug addiction, for example). Obviously God isn't going heal your addiction right there that very second, rather if the person helps his or herself by taking steps outward from the problem/addiction, God will be more than happy to give that person the strength they need. Once you get going, God will give you a little a push on the way to help you. But He's not going to brush your teeth for you. :laugh: 


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Anonymous

Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: Swami]
    #856534 - 09/01/02 10:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Please don't mock my great-great-great-great-great-great grandpappy...

If that isn't a case for genetic determinism I don't know what is. :grin:

Cheers, 


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OfflineIni
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: Swami]
    #856537 - 09/01/02 10:49 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

It means that everyone has to be his/her own god/godess.
IMO, there is no great god to pull us out of the mess we stumbled in. To me, life itself is the thing so many call "god".
Life shows no mercy.



--------------------
Remain in Light
Greez Ini


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: Zahid]
    #856538 - 09/01/02 10:50 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: World Spirit]
    #856549 - 09/01/02 10:54 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Are saying that God can do anything?

Can He violate His own nature?

Can He will Himself into non-existence?

Can He violate our Freewill?

Can he do that which is logically impossible?

The answers to these and other questions are not easy to answer.

Cheers,


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: ]
    #856559 - 09/01/02 11:02 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

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OfflineZahid
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: World Spirit]
    #856566 - 09/01/02 11:05 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

THere's nothing obvious about that statement. God, who is all-powerful, can do whatever He so chooses. This would include healing someone psychologically and/or physically from an addiction, and furthermore God has no time limits for healing an individual as far as I know - so an instant healing is quite possible if God desires it.

Of course! Maybe I used obvious as the wrong choice of words. I was saying that God might be more willing to help those who put an effort to better themselves, that is all. If God wishes to instantly heal someone, that is more than fine too.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: Zahid]
    #856572 - 09/01/02 11:08 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

But He's not going to brush your teeth for you.

Yeah, but what about a little assist getting that tough spot behind the rear molars...


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Anonymous

Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: World Spirit]
    #856624 - 09/01/02 11:26 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

A bit off topic, don't you think?

Not all at since we were discussing what God can and cannot do. It is highly germane in my view.

These are not that tough to answer btw.

Simple answers are easy answers but they can be incorrect ones as all of yours are.

Are saying that God can do anything?
Yes, but He chooses not too and has told us through the prophets how he conducts Himself.


Please give a scripture reference with the conext that means this.

[note]: With God all things are possible is NOT one.

Can He violate His own nature?
He does not have a nature as far as I know at the moment. He has personality and identity based on what He wills to be.


Absolutely incorrect. The nature of God has been a discussion among theologians for centuries. Are you implying that all of them are wrong or that you alone have the only correct answer?

Can He violate our Freewill?
Yes. As far as the Bible's authors are concerned, God does give us free will but He also operates through many of us without asking. Remember when Saul, who was evil and condemned at the moment, began prophesying by the word of the Lord? I highly doubt he did so by choice. Thus, he was not initiating/exercising free will. Thus, God in a sense overtook Saul's will.


Saul aka Paul chose to follow God after He revealed Himself to him. It was entirely a matter of choice.

Can he do that which is logically impossible?
Of course. Logic, as well as beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. God's wisdom contradicts mankind's logic on a daily basis, don't you think?


I think you know less about logic than you do about God and that is saying a lot. The laws of logic are immutable.

I wish I had time to quibble with you but each question has entire volumes written about it.

Easy answers are simple answers because they reflect the source of their origin, a simple mind.

Not trying to be hard on you but you have a lot to learn and maybe a lot to unlearn as well.

Cheers,


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: ]
    #856672 - 09/01/02 11:53 AM (14 years, 5 months ago)

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OfflineFliquid
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: Swami]
    #856739 - 09/01/02 12:15 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Somebody i know said:

To be blessed by someone from the point of the persons believe, is the most powerfull thing for me. I don't believe in god, but the power of the persons believe is what gives me the true blessing.

My mind is always spinning, but when he told me this the sunshine became clear and i understood why you should not be super anti god. People who believe in god don't always suppress other to become believers of god. Jadda jadda jadda.. Enough... I hope this adds some ambiance to you text.  :wink: 


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Anonymous

Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: World Spirit]
    #856749 - 09/01/02 12:19 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

I don't recall even mentioning any theologians nor do I care to. If I'm wrong, correct me with truth. If I'm right, well, then I'm right.

Brilliant. So you are saying that unless I take the necessary time, which I do not have, to correct your misperceived notions you will assume you are correct. Perhaps, and I am just spitballing here, you might do a little study on your own. Unless you have always known the truth about everything. If that is the case, then by all means, do not bother.

The scriptures you mentioned do not give evidence that God usurped anyone's freewill.

>I wish I had time to quibble with you but each question has entire volumes written about it.

As I said.

Cheers,


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InvisibleWorld Spirit
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: ]
    #856794 - 09/01/02 12:36 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

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Anonymous

Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: World Spirit]
    #856826 - 09/01/02 12:52 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

Yeah, don't take it the wrong way.

I may seem affable but underneath that thin veneer is a person who despises nonsense, especially Christian nonsense. I have been around the board many many times. I have lived in Christian communes like the ones Sclorch describes in his latest thread. I have communed with Christian idiots who wouldn't know how to interpret a scripture if their life depended on it. I have been to over thirty denominations and watched plenty of theatre while the unwashed masses pretend to know God and at the same time their actions reveal they despise Him. If some of that resentment/anger gets spilled on you I am sorry. Some things get under my skin in a hurry.

At times my strong feelings of dislike for certain ideological errors leak through like so much acid on a sponge. Most of the time I keep it in check.

Cheers,


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OfflinePhred
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Re: God Helps Those Who Help Themselves [Re: ]
    #857732 - 09/01/02 08:41 PM (14 years, 5 months ago)

...acid on a sponge.

Mmmmmmmmmm.... sponge acid!

*drool*

pinky


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