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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784195 -

All these people saying they were God, yet not one can perform even a minor miracle (like using logic), never mind jump-starting a new universe.


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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784212 -

Maybe you've convinced yourself that you believe nature to exist? "Since there is no way to address what is in someone's head, who can say?"

I think at best, one can say "I perceive god to exist" and likewise "I perceive nature to exist" or really, "I perceive _______ to exist"

Everything that you can sense requires you to filter it through your senses, so in some sense god is just as real (or unreal) as everything else, depending on your perception. Yet another reason why god can't really be tied down with words, because any arguement against his existence could be used as an arguement about anything's existence.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784214 -

Maybe there is a consensus, but our human idiosyncrasies make us express something in a different way? That's why I don't like using the word God to explain something.. because it causes people such as yourself to instantly bring up catholic programming in their mind and instantly rationalize the statement away because it brings to mind negative memories or just reactionary behavior.

That's why I don't believe in God, because if I believed in God, I would apparently be believing in a God as defined by someone else which could never be my own understanding because it comes from the extra baggage of this other person's baggage of their desires or fears of what God, or Everything, is.

Quote:
Nope. There are plenty of experiences of something. That's all that can be said.


Yes, that is true. And which is why talking about God is not going to get us towards any kind of truth, but if we are talking about a hypothetical God, then there should be no problem comparing hypothetical arguments. Some people choose to call this experience of something "God" and assign properties to their experience - I don't believe this is in itself a delusion, but only becomes a delusion when one mistakes these hypothetical properties to be intimate knowledge of God's nature or ultimate reality. Nobody on this board is currently having the experience of timelessness or making choices with God, at least I don't think so, but it would not be logically impossible for these properties to be real.


The statement "God exists" tells us as much about God as the statement "Existence". So why do we need the word God? Because you wouldn't understand what I meant if I just made a thread with the title "Existence".

"Existence? What about it? It exists, duh!"


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Edited by EternalCowabunga (12/21/07 01:17 AM)

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7784599 -

You are basing your post on some of the grandiose assumptions of humankind, namely, claiming to know and understand God. The word denotes certain gross anthropomorphic projections of the human psyche onto The Transcendent, which is always a The Mystery. Omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence are frequently applied attributes based on certain classic conceptions of perfection.

Conversely, there may be a certain sense of 'Becoming,' as well as Being when it comes to the nature of God in creation. This is called 'Process Theology' and it has been around since Charles Hartshorne at the turn of the 20th century
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hartshorne
In India there has long been a notion of God a s gradually coming to consciousness from unconsciousness (Vishnu dreams the universe into existence!)
So, while it is fascinating fun to discuss these possibilities, one must be careful to examine one's philosophical assumptions before proceeding.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7787651 -

Why would God have to explain God to God? :confused:


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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7788355 -

Diploid said:
Are you a Catholic?

I was raised Catholic. I was even an altar boy.

why do you place so much importance on their beliefs?

Because I have to start somewhere. As I've already said, if you ask 100 True Believers what God is, you'll get 100 inconsistencies. Just look at the myriad definitions for God that have popped up in this thread alone.

Because TBs can't come to any sort of consensus on what God is (surprised?), I have to pick a golden standard and a billion Catholics in the world follow what the infallible Vatican says. It's from the Vatican that I get my working definition.

Give me a better one and I'll use it.


If you want to start somewhere why not start at the scripture alone as your authority for Christian doctrine? Roman Catholic doctrine sets aside scripture and replaces it what it declares in plain defiance of scripture on most essential / non-essential points.

Truth is not decided by numbers of people believing something, truth just is. I could go on and on about how Catholics have set aside God's Word and replaced it with vain imaginations.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Silversoul]
    #7788489 -

Couldn't an omniscient 'god' be all-knowing about what path our free will will take us

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: fivepointer]
    #7792022 -

Roman Catholic doctrine sets aside scripture and replaces it what it declares

So do you. So does every True Believer. And none agrees with any other.

Your advice is no better than the Vatican's. :shrug:


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7792488 -

How about the argument that God does not have to exist? There is no need for a God, we coexist and thrive without it. People use the name of god to bring upon morals, but society all ready has its own notions.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Anarleaf]
    #7792521 -

Quote:
How about the argument that God does not have to exist? There is no need for a God, we coexist and thrive without it.


I like :thumbup:

Quote:
People use the name of god to bring upon morals, but society all ready has its own notions.


Yes, people hide behind what god means to justify their own fears and create laws and rules against what they feel vulnerable. And as long as this happens, not much chance and room for healing.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Anarleaf]
    #7792798 -

"There is no need for a God, we coexist and thrive without it. "

While this is one way of seeing our world, I'm sure there are plenty of religious folks who would argue that religion is the reason we thrive (after all, it is a little too popular to truthfully say that we thrive (or even suffer) without it. Religion most assuredly does affect our lives, even for those who are not affiliated with any particular one.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7792815 -

are morals a mandate from god, making them good because god says so. Or are there absolute truths in the moral realm, making them inherently good, while others are inherently evil. i say things are wrong because man kind would wish those things not to be done to them (the golden rule type thing). without religion, humanity in my eye would suffer the same morality.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7793455 -

Why can't god and free will exist? How do you know that you have free will at all? We're all limited to laws of physics, we can't fly so my will to fly is useless. Do animals have free will? Does Hellen Keller have free will?

You're implying that God being omnipotent is like him knowing what he's going to do ahead of himself... and in essence know everything about everything before it happens...which doesn't even make sense!

Bottom line is you can't try to understand an infinite mind with a finite one because you have absolutely no way to conclude any kind of accuracy. Like you could be so way off on everything from the very core of your beliefs outward.. so yea, God's awesome.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: ObliviousSeeker]
    #7793463 -

Yeah god's awesome.
So is the easter bunny.
And the tooth fairy. :fairy:

And yes, we are limited by the laws of physics. So what? What exactly is your point?
How does that cancels free will?
Free will is NOT about getting to do whatever you want. Free will is about acknowledging the multitude of options and opportunities that are around you, understanding their outcomes and DELIBERATELY choose the one that appeals to you.


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs
:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Silversoul]
    #7793673 -

The only solution to the afformentioned problem I've heard of that wasn't total crap and easily tear apart able, is this:

God exists outside of time, and the humanly perceptable timeline does not apply to God, and exists only to create rationality for Man. Therefore, God is aware of existence as a single point, at best, after and before everything has happened.

The softer version was that God existed at all points on the timeline at once.

The real issue it boils down too is free will/determinism, which no one has come up with a "good" answer for. Determinism is represented in this case by the existence of God, and said being's foreknowledge ruling out Free Will.

Even without a god, there's physics. Free will is pretty fucked if you acknowledge mechanistic thinking, or anything like it.

The God spoken of here who simply has the capacity to predict possible outcomes is similar to a concept called "Laplace's Demon", a theoretical entity that has an accurate picture of the state of the universe at the "Big Bang" and a complete knowledge of the physical laws governing the universe, said entity could predict everything that would happen ever, as everything that happens must find it's root Cause in this event. Once you acknowledge that the universe is governed by physical laws, there's basically no room for "Free Will".

I've never encountered a defense of free will that didn't have serious flaws. They either make unproveable assumptions, or just ignore stuff.


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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7795469 -

While I see your point, and I also believe that religion has done good things, it does not mean we still need it.

As of today, it is unnecessary and has led to violence and hatred from virtually all religions.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Anarleaf]
    #7795531 -

Violence and hatred are two things which can only be done by man, never by the concept of something like religion.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7796457 -

But what are the excuses for war? Isn't there currently a battle between Sunni and Shiite due to holy land? Religion isn't causing the tensions, but people are excusing their violence because of their extreme convictions.

Edited by Anarleaf (12/24/07 07:24 PM)

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Anarleaf]
    #7796578 -

The excuse matters much less than most think. War is rarely fought for one reason alone.

You hit the nail right on the head that the religion is rarely the cause of tension, but I disagree with the motive of your second statement. There will of course, be apologists for religious war, but there will always be apologists, no matter what the cause (try starting a thread about the NSA or the patriot act if you want to see what I mean firsthand). When it comes down to it, it isn't Sunni vs. Shiite, its Group A vs. Group B.

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