|
Diglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
|
free will and the infallible god
#7781009 - 12/20/07 10:17 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
an omniscient god and free will can not exist. this seems to be one of the more easily understood "haha's" of religion in general; yet i would still like to see someone argue this point. can anyone explain how a god who is all knowing, apparently infallible in knowing the outcome of ever situation, can co-exist with mans free will? that is, if mans outcome is understood before it is acted on, does he truly have free will?
|
truffleupagus



Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 3,103
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7781101 - 12/20/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I think a lot could depend on how you define omniscient.
I know omniscient means all knowing. But couldn't it just as easily mean "all knowing, except for the future"?
I guess I'm not really arguing against your point because it is a good one. I'm just trying to offer another point.
I believe in some type of God but I think the idea of absolute destiny is absolutely ludicrous. We make decisions that effect our lives tremendously every day. So I see our free will as something tangible that's easy to believe in. But I also think there could be room for free will and destiny to co-exist. For example, maybe there are multiple destinies mapped out for each individual and the decisions that we make determine which one. A good thing to compare that to would be those books that were popular in elementary school where if you want to do this you go to page 171 and if you want to do that you go to 192. Remember them?
|
WScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ


Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
#7781114 - 12/20/07 10:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Infinite paths, one destination?
--------------------

|
Diglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
#7781123 - 12/20/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
goosebumps, fuckin a dude.
even in that scenario tho, wouldn't god know the choices that you would choose anyway? i guess not if you choose to say that the god doesnt know the future, but to me that is one superpower i think a god would need.
|
truffleupagus



Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 3,103
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7781155 - 12/20/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah man, I don't know. I feel pretty strong about my belief in some type of God.
What that God knows or It's capacity for knowledge is a whole 'nother story though. I try not to think about that stuff too much. I might fuck around and hurt my head or something.
|
Diglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
#7781167 - 12/20/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
we should challenge our beliefs, especially when we are the most certain. Socratic challenge right there. but your point makes sense. a god would be a little much for humanity to try and understand, but we have reason for something. perhaps its to find god reasonably.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7781175 - 12/20/07 11:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I know its tempting, as I am an agnostic myself, but you cannot argue against god, fallible or not. The religious argument will always be that you cannot put boundaries on god, as he is not bound to any of the human limits, including logic.
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7781202 - 12/20/07 11:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I have dreams of future events so I said no way do we have free will. But as I verbalized it I thought maybe our dreams manifest events into our lives? Then I heard this lyric. "everything i manifest in my life is that which i contemplate from the wake and dreaming"-satya yuga I definately think we need to constantly question authority because the majority is to scared to do it or something. www.educate-yourself.org
This ones good "passengers on different cars steppin' off the same train"-Jurassic 5
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
#7781212 - 12/20/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
beliefs build walls
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
Diglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7781217 - 12/20/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
if god can hide and not be questioned, then perhaps it (instead of he) could also be evil. but i guess that is just saying that morals are a mandate from heaven...and that should be another debate another day.
|
Diglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
#7781227 - 12/20/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
symbiotic said: beliefs build walls
but if they arent the right beliefs, or morally not correct, than they would build the wrong walls. just know why you believe something.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7781290 - 12/20/07 11:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
God could be good, evil, both, or neither, and all of these at the same time and there would still be no conflict, because its god.
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7781295 - 12/20/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I am saying keep an open mind or you might be closing yourself off to something greater than what you believe
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7782277 - 12/20/07 04:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diglottic_Sun said: an omniscient god and free will can not exist. this seems to be one of the more easily understood "haha's" of religion in general; yet i would still like to see someone argue this point. can anyone explain how a god who is all knowing, apparently infallible in knowing the outcome of ever situation, can co-exist with mans free will? that is, if mans outcome is understood before it is acted on, does he truly have free will?
Speaking from a Christian perspective man does not have a free will. Man only acts according to his internal inclination, only in this sense is the will free. Man has no ability to alter himself to change this inclination. Only by the power of God does that internal nature change, and then he will act according to the new nature which has been implanted.
God Himself either leaves a person alone or converts them, either way all things are ordained according to God's decree and will. This is the classic Protestant Reformed/Calvinistic (the Christian) position on the matter.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
#7782298 - 12/20/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
truffleupagus said: I think a lot could depend on how you define omniscient.
I know omniscient means all knowing. But couldn't it just as easily mean "all knowing, except for the future"?
I guess I'm not really arguing against your point because it is a good one. I'm just trying to offer another point.
I believe in some type of God but I think the idea of absolute destiny is absolutely ludicrous. We make decisions that effect our lives tremendously every day. So I see our free will as something tangible that's easy to believe in. But I also think there could be room for free will and destiny to co-exist. For example, maybe there are multiple destinies mapped out for each individual and the decisions that we make determine which one. A good thing to compare that to would be those books that were popular in elementary school where if you want to do this you go to page 171 and if you want to do that you go to 192. Remember them?
You might want to check out this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology
--------------------
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: fivepointer]
#7782311 - 12/20/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
in response to the OP:
Omniscience and free will can co-exist. For example, god knows the outcome of what you are doing while you are doing it, not before and after. Our actions are free but God still knows what we would choose in a given circumstance because he knows us all personally. A timeless God means paradoxically he only exists in the eternal present, knowing his creation as it unfolds.
Not my personal belief, but a valid argument.
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
#7782340 - 12/20/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yeah man, I don't know. I feel pretty strong about my belief in some type of God.
What that God knows or It's capacity for knowledge is a whole 'nother story though.
If it's not omniscient, it's not God, by definition.
A non-omniscient creature with a lot of knowledge is essentially just a very technologically advanced creature, but fundamentally no different than you or me.
Why worship such an ordinary creature?
Respect, maybe. Admire, sure. Be impressed by its knowledge, absolutely. But kneel down, bow my head, and worship it?
Get real!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7782369 - 12/20/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
God is so far out of our comprehension that we can't even imagine what it is.
Yet somehow, you know enough to explain to us how God treats free will and chooses our destiny, and you even make matter-of-fact statements about its basic nature and physical non-existence.
That's a good one! Is there anything else you'd like to tell us about this thing that's "so far out of our comprehension that we can't even imagine what is is"?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782415 - 12/20/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: If it's not omniscient, it's not God, by definition.
This seems a very narrow definition of God. God is, as Markos often puts it, The Ground of Being. God is the source of all creation from whom all of reality flows out. Such a being need not be omnipotent to fit such qualifications.
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
god knows the outcome of what you are doing while you are doing it, not before and after
BZZT! Then it's not God. God, by definition in this context, is omniscient. That means he knows EVERYTHING, including before and after and during.
It's the absolutist concept "omniscient" that fucks the True Believer's position. If God knows everything, then he can't not know something and that's required for a choice (free will) to exist.
The option of picking what God wasn't anticipating IS free will. If he was anticipated by an omniscient being, then the unanticipated choice must be either impossible to choose or by choosing it, God is rendered wrong and so not omniscient (not God) after all.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782429 - 12/20/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
what does "knowing everything" mean? before and after wouldn't exist for god because he is TIMELESS. I don't think you understand what that really means.
--------------------
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782487 - 12/20/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: BZZT! Then it's not God. God, by definition in this context, is omniscient. That means he knows EVERYTHING, including before and after and during.
It's the absolutist concept "omniscient" that fucks the True Believer's position. If God knows everything, then he can't not know something and that's required for a choice (free will) to exist.
The option of picking what God wasn't anticipating IS free will. If he was anticipated by an omniscient being, then the unanticipated choice must be either impossible to choose or by choosing it, God is rendered wrong and so not omniscient (not God) after all.
For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure seem to know a lot about him.
--------------------
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: fivepointer]
#7782504 - 12/20/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Whatever man profoundly BELIEVES himself to be, good or bad, that will he become. Whatever man FEARS others will do to him, so will they do. Whatever man HOPES that others will do to him, he must first do to them, since he is then creating a ‘consciousness pattern’ which will return to bless him to the extent he has blest others. Whatever disease man DREADS so will he become prey to it for he will have created a ‘consciousness pattern’ of the very thing he least wants to experience. Whatever is sent forth from man’s mind and heart - returns to him in due course in some form or another, but remember that like always breeds like. Strongly emotional thoughts are ‘consciousness- seeds’ planted within a man’s own orbit of consciousness. These will grow, bearing a like harvest for his reaping.
These are the fruits of free will.
There is no way that man may escape what he thinks, says or does - for he is born of the Divine Creative Consciousness power and is likewise creative in his imagining.
christsway.co.za
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Silversoul]
#7782760 - 12/20/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure seem to know a lot about him.
All I know about God I get from you guys.
The things I have personal knowledge of is how contradictory the idea of an infallible, all-knowing God who infallibly knows you're choosing #7 on the menu for lunch tomorrow rendering any alternate choice, and therefore the free will opportunity to choose it, unavailable.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782783 - 12/20/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Thats where you go wrong. You cannot "tie down" god, reguardless. There is no such thing as contradiction to an omnipotent being, you cannot logically bind its power, it will always just be a paper tiger.
(And this is from someone who does not believe in god)
|
Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782794 - 12/20/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure seem to know a lot about him.
All I know about God I get from you guys.
And yet when someone offers certain ideas of God, you say that their idea doesn't meet the definition of God. Your idea of God seems very Aristotelean -- an omnipotent "unmoved mover." This idea, though it has been incorporated into Christian orthodoxy, is not the way most of the world's religions conceive of God. It isn't even consistent with many of the ideas within the Abrahamic tradition. The Old Testament is full of examples where God is swayed by the pleas of a prophet. Kabbalists especially can understand how God doesn't really control creation as much as he interacts with it. If you're a gamer, you might actually have some clue about this, as many god games operate on a similar principle.
--------------------
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782799 - 12/20/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
If I knew you were going to choose #7 because you are my friend and we've been eating at the same place for 10 years and you always get #7... does that mean I chose #7 for you? Think about it...
--------------------
|
jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
|
|
Maybe the choice you make is the choice god makes?
Maybe free-will and determinism don't clash, but to compare them is to make the category mistake?
Dunno.
--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
|
that's pretty much what i'm saying, god knows what you are doing in the present because he is doing that with you, he doesn't know what you are going to do in the future because the future doesn't exist so the argument that diploid presented is inherently flawed
--------------------
|
jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
|
|
If you consider time to be much like a spacial dimension, and were able to transcend it, you'd see all of time laid out in a non-moving fashion, but sequentially throughout space. In Hindusim this is called the Lira Shingra (Long Body), I think. The idea is that free-will and choice is an illusion. Nothing is happening but linear movement along this spacial dimension we call time. If you could learn how to move non-linearly, you might figure out time travel :shroom:. But my point is that to even ponder free-will may be an absurdity and irrelevant.
--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
Edited by jonathanseagull (12/20/07 08:12 PM)
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
|
Ya, I know what you mean.
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Silversoul]
#7783173 - 12/20/07 08:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
And yet when someone offers certain ideas of God, you say that their idea doesn't meet the definition of God. Your idea of God seems very Aristotelean
Nope. Again, my definitions of God, like everything God, I get from believers.
The two most populous religions on Earth are Catholicism and Suni Islam. Together they account for over 2 billion believers. Both those religions define God as omniscient and infallible.
Since I have no experience of God whatsoever, I can only set my God-definitions to match theirs.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
If I knew you were going to choose
This is neither here nor there. You're not omniscient.
And if you claimed you were (as is claimed for God), then I'd ask you what number I'm going to choose, and when you say #7, I'd choose #8, thus proving you fallible and so your claim of omniscience false.
Same goes for God. If I ask him what #, then I choose another number, God cannot be omniscient. If I ask him what number and, because of God's foreknowledge, it cannot happen that I choose another one, then I don't have the free will to choose another one.
Think about it...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783236 - 12/20/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yes, he can be omniscient, because he is god. I feel like a broken record that no one is listening to. I mean Christ, I've had this same arguement with people a hundred times. I always tried to make the same arguement that you are making diploid, but the fact of the matter is that its doesn't mean anything. IT will always come down to: "You cannot speak about that which you cannot know."
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783258 - 12/20/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
who are these believers and where can i see the scripture they adhere to. it sounds like the definition you are using is a projection of your own need for god's definition to be contrary to his nature, which you do not believe in, for the apparently sole reason that the definition, which is the one that you have created in your own mind as a distorted version of the "enemies" idea. all of your posts come off as if you are scared of the possibility that you could one day believe in the idea of God because you have distanced that idea from yourself by projecting an "enemy" status on that idea and then you actually stand there and say that this enemy idea is wrong
but of course it's wrong, because you created it that way. and then you want to say "only look at my creation, it is the one and true creation" and then when other's point to their own creation, you say that they don't even exist. my god man, you've made yourself out to be some kind of god.
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7783263 - 12/20/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Then explain to me what happens at the juncture when I ask God what menu number I'm going to choose, then I choose another one.
If you're tired of going around like a broken record, just address that scenario.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783296 - 12/20/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I cannot adress it as a man, nor can anyone. However, god can address it as god. Its only a paper tiger, just like "Can god create a boulder he himself cannot lift?" It is meaningless because you cannot tie god down logically. I think you need to read some Kant.
edit: this may help somewhat, although some of it is, admittedly, over my head.
Quote:
As such, the noumenal 'world' of freedom can be regarded simply as the phenomenal world viewed from the standpoint of freedom.
This means freedom is found in immediate experience, though not as 'an object of experience' [Kt7i:195], but 'by its possible effect ['in nature']' [Kt7: 474]; its effect is undetectable only when experience is viewed from the standpoint of systemt [Kt1:843]. As Vleeschauwer puts it in V4:120-1: 'If the subject is considered in so far as he is temporally conditioned, his acts are physically determined...;
http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/ksp1/KSP8A.html
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 08:34 PM)
|
jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783315 - 12/20/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Then explain to me what happens at the juncture when I ask God what menu number I'm going to choose, then I choose another one.
If you're tried of going around like a broken record, just address that scenario.
Quote:
jonathanseagull said: Maybe the choice you make is the choice god makes?
Maybe free-will and determinism don't clash, but to compare them is to make the category mistake?
Dunno.
--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
who are these believers and where can i see the scripture they adhere to
Catholics: http://www.vatican.va/ -- And take it from me, I was raised Catholic. They believe God is omniscient and infallible. Hell, they believe the pope is infallible too.
Muslims: http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1b/5.html -- They believe Allah is omniscient and infallible and by extension, their Imams who communicate directly with God are infallible too.
Interesting how two groups of people with incompatible beliefs both claim infallibility.
Gotta love those True Believers!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783343 - 12/20/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
So, True Believers = Catholics and Muslims = Believe in a God based on the definitions I have decided
Was that your argument?
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7783368 - 12/20/07 08:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I cannot adress it as a man, nor can anyone.
Ah, this is the "cover your ears and sing I CAN'T HEAR YOU" rebuttal.
I paint you into a logical corner, then instead of answering my pinning question and engaging in a constructive debate, you bail out by pulling this classic out of thin air:
"It is meaningless because you cannot tie god down logically."
Up until I tossed you this pivotal question, you seemed to know a hell of a lot about God. Now you're trapped and conveniently disavow any knowledge of how God works.
Intellectually dishonest and par for the course for most believers.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
Maybe the choice you make is the choice god makes?
If God makes the choice, it's not my choice and there is no free will. Is there an echo in here?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783382 - 12/20/07 08:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Maybe the choice you make is the choice god makes?
If God makes the choice, it's not my choice and there is no free will. Is there an echo in here?
You don't understand what I'm getting at.
--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
Edited by jonathanseagull (12/20/07 08:44 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
Because it doesn't makes sense. I choose or God chooses. Or we agree on a mutual choice.
Which one?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783407 - 12/20/07 08:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Because it doesn't makes sense. I choose or God chooses. Or we agree on a mutual choice.
Which one?
Quote:
Excluded Middle (False Dichotomy, Faulty Dilemma, Bifurcation)
Assuming there are only two alternatives when in fact there are more. For example, assuming Atheism is the only alternative to Fundamentalism, or being a traitor is the only alternative to being a loud patriot.
--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
|
Quote:
For example, assuming Atheism is the only alternative to Fundamentalism
For some reason I see this a lot by people who have been raised by religious parents. I wonder if there is a correlation between people who do very strongly disbelieve in a fundamentalist concept of God (to the extent that it becomes the foundation for their outlook on life) and those people having parents who do believe in a fundamentalist concept of God and trying to force it on their child.
--------------------
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783429 - 12/20/07 08:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
What the fuck are you talking about? This whole time my entire arguement has been that you cannot logically tie god down. It is completely impossible. Don't you think philosophers haven't talked about this very same question for almost as long as there have been philosophers? I am just starting my philosophy major, and even with my basic knowledge I can tell you that you cannot logically tie down god, and doing so just makes you look like someone who knows nothing about philosophy or god.
I hardly think I'm "on par" with most believers, seeing as how I'm, for all intents and purposes, an atheist. I was where you are once, and I was made a fool of too many times by too many intelligent people, I'm doing you a favor by correcting you now.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7783474 - 12/20/07 09:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
What the fuck are you talking about? This whole time my entire arguement has been that you cannot logically tie god down. It is completely impossible.
What I'm talking about is that this is pure made up stuff. Somehow you know all about God and make all sorts of matter-of-fact proclamations, then you get cornered and back track that nobody can know God so you can't answer my simple question.
I'm doing you a favor by correcting you now.
OMG, thanks for the help! Dunno what I'd do without ya!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783500 - 12/20/07 09:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
So basically you are saying that you are better than people who make up definitions of something called God which is made up, because of your own idea of God which you have made up
--------------------
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783675 - 12/20/07 10:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Fine then, wallow in your ignorance and paper tigers, you are not worth mine or anyone else's time if you refuse to acknowledge basic philosophical principles.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7783749 - 12/20/07 10:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
if you refuse to acknowledge basic philosophical principles.
Ah, you've got philosophy all figured out and are ready to teach us. I'm more and more impressed.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783863 - 12/20/07 10:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
There are some who still adhere to what you are saying, don't get me wrong, but even those people acknowlege that there are forms of omnipotence that are absolute, for example:
Peter Geach describes and rejects four levels of omnipotence. He also defines and defends a lesser notion of the "almightiness" of God.
"1. Y is absolutely omnipotent means that Y "can do everything absolutely. Everything that can be expressed in a string of words even if it can be shown to be self-contradictory," Y "is not bound in action, as we are in thought by the laws of logic."[9] This position is advanced by Descartes. It has the theological advantage of making God prior to the laws of logic, but the theological disadvantage of making God's promises suspect. On this account, the omnipotence paradox is a genuine paradox, but genuine paradoxes might nonetheless be so."
It is my belief that by simple definition, omnipotence must be absolute, if you choose to disagree, thats fine, whatever, but keep in mind that to think of gods omnipotence as anything other than absolute would mean that god would simply not be god. If there is a god, it made natural law, and it can change it. There's nothing wrong with a genuine paradox. This sentence is false.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7783913 - 12/20/07 11:06 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
OK, now that you're dropping the pretentious "I know more philosophy than you do, neener neener" stance, we can make some progress.
If there is a god, it made natural law, and it can change it.
What made God?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783951 - 12/20/07 11:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
God is.
(If there is one anyway, I don't see a problem with it being omnipresent.)
edit: found this and thought it was hilarious and somewhat relevant, its from the Principa Discordia.
" GREATER POOP: Are you really serious or what? MAL-2: Sometimes I take humor seriously. Sometimes I take seriousness humorously. Either way it is irrelevant.
GP: Maybe you are just crazy. M2: Indeed! But do not reject these teaching as false because I am crazy. The reason that I am crazy is because they are true.
GP: Is Eris true? M2: Everything is true. GP: Even false things? M2: Even false things are true. GP: How can that be? M2: I don't know man, I didn't do it.
GP: Why do you deal with so many negatives? M2: To dissolve them. GP: Will you develop that point? M2: No.
GP: Is there an essential meaning behind POEE? M2: There is a Zen Story about a student who asked a Master to explain the meaning of Buddhism. The Master's reply was "Three pounds of flax." GP: Is that the answer to my question? M2: No, of course not. That is just illustrative. The answer to your question is FIVE TONS OF FLAX!"
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 11:21 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
Excluded Middle (False Dichotomy, Faulty Dilemma, Bifurcation)
False Dichotomy? I offered the three options available in ALL combination of two active bits, Me and God:
01 - I choose 10 - God chooses 11 - We both agree on a choice
Those are all the combinations available and it's far and away more than your 'False Monotomy' one and only God explanation that doesn't even make sense.
"The choice I make is the choice God makes?" What?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784012 - 12/20/07 11:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Perhaps at your moment of decision an infinite number of realities are formed for all possibilities that may happen, with each reality persisting into infinity. You choose the outcome of one reality, but through being omnipotent, god knows what will happen in the infinite number of realities so he can tell you what you will pick, because at that point the realities are not split, and he can definitely confirm that your being will pick it, but when you choose another you become a part of one of these different realities, where not only did you pick the number you chose, but god just got done telling you which one it was.
Wait... what? I'm not even high, thats right, booya.
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 11:36 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7784023 - 12/20/07 11:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
God is.
No, Nature is.
And that's as valid an answer as yours, in every way.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784037 - 12/20/07 11:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yes, but saying that "Nature is" doesn't make "God is" any less valid either.
(which is another reason why I believe it is impossible to pin god down with words)
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 11:43 PM)
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7784046 - 12/20/07 11:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Perhaps at your moment of decision an infinite number of realities are formed for all possibilities that may happen, with each reality persisting into infinity. You choose the outcome of one reality, but through being omnipotent, god knows what will happen in the infinite number of realities so he can tell you what you will pick, because at that point the realities are not split, and he can definitely confirm that your being will pick it, but when you choose another you become a part of one of these different realities, where not only did you pick the number you chose, but god just got done telling you which one it was.
Holy shit! Can you say Contrived? Ever heard of Occam's Razor? 
Wait... what? I'm not even high, thats right, booya.
/Dip passes xFrockx the bong.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784053 - 12/20/07 11:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Contrived? Absolutely. I didn't know that was against the rules. Occam did say that the simplest solution is best. When I think of one simpler, I'll report back, but until then, I'm the best! Err... My arguement is the best.
As for the bong, I wish... I haven't had a proper bong rip in more than 24 hours, this shit is getting out of hand.
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 11:51 PM)
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784061 - 12/20/07 11:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
i think it's contrived to spout out "occam's razor!" as if saying that was just as good as actually making an argument
come on diploid, you can be more creative than that
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7784071 - 12/20/07 11:54 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Yes, but saying that "Nature is" doesn't make "God is" any less valid either.
This is true. We can't know it's God and we can't know it's not-God.
But we can use reason to see that if God is primacy and inevitable and you supply some argument, then you can also say that Nature is primacy and inevitable and you can defend it with the exact same argument.
In other words, any reason you can come up with for why God must be at the top of the construct can be used to to state that Nature is at the top of the construct because in the end there is no evidence either way.
When you take both arguments and compare them, the God argument is contrived and doesn't conform to the available observations. It injects anthropomorphic constructs that are not necessary to explain existence. Meanwhile, the Nature argument flows, um, naturally with no anthropomorphic coloration. It's the simpler and more elegant of the two explanations.
Doesn't make it THE explanation, but barring some reason to lean toward the more-complicated God explanation it makes more sense to keep anthropomorphism out of the picture and tacitly go with the Nature explanation until something better (read: simpler, more elegant, better aligned with Occam, consistent with available observations) comes along.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7784074 - 12/20/07 11:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
These are pretty much my exact beliefs http://educate-yourself.org/mbc/
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7784086 - 12/21/07 12:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
How about you are standing there at the restaurant with god, chillin, talking about what you want to eat. God wants the chicken sandwich, but they only have fried chicken and he is on a diet (prediabetic, go figure). So, needless to say, he's a little pissed off. God has never been known as one to keep his temper, so as you try to pull one over on him, he enacts his wrath. I believe the dialogue would go something like this:
God: So Diploid, what do you think you're getting?
You: I'm not sure, what am I getting god?
God: Hmm... (furrows brow) you're getting killed for being a heretic.
You: WRONG! I'm getting the #5... wait, what?
*BOOM*
You explode for disobeying god's will, you get no sandwich.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784098 - 12/21/07 12:03 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
While we can perceive nature, I think it would be as hard to prove it exists as it would be to prove god exists. Similarly, it would be hard to prove that god and nature are not one in the same.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
#7784104 - 12/21/07 12:04 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You aren't going to last very long like this, you know that, right?
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
#7784114 - 12/21/07 12:08 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
From your link: We are all IMMORTAL SPIRIT BEINGS who have lived out THOUSANDS of other physical lives here on earth before this one. Each time we die, we return to the spirit world...
This is EXACTLY the kind of stuff I DON'T believe. Why not? Because it's just a narrative; a story. The guy just starts talking and provides no reasons other than because he said so.
True Believers who buy into this sort of stuff never seem to apply critical thinking. They never demand at least some semblance of a rational, thought out explanation and instead eat up any sufficiently long, rambling story even when that story reads more like a kid's fairy tale than adult discourse.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand


Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7784127 - 12/21/07 12:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I think some of us are misinterpreting how we should understand the word "omniscient". Let's take a look at the dictionary:
omniscient: 1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.
I think when this word or idea was originally used to describe God it suggested that God knew everything that IS. That is, God experiences and has knowledge of all things or events that are happening NOW. An All Seeing Eye. I am reminded of this Christmas song, I was just thinking about it earlier today:
Santa Claus is coming to town: "He knows when you are sleeping He knows when you're awake He knows when you've been bad or good So be good for goodness sake"
This expresses the idea of Santa being omniscient. Santa is sort of a God Lite for children. Someone knows everything, and will reward or punish you. Hell vs. Heaven, Coal vs. Toys. But he certainly isn't going to punish you for something you are yet to do, it hasn't happened yet! Anyway..
God experiences through his creation. He experiences through us (and everything else). It is because God experiences all things at once that he is described as omniscient. I don't think there was originally an intimation that God should know the future.
And if he were to know the future, then omniscient would imply that he knows all possibilities. He must experience all these possibilities in order to know them. In essence, everything has happened and is happening now. Every possibility has been fulfilled. You simply perceive things along one strand of possibility, but every other possibility also happens. You are a function of one possibility that needs to be experienced. Humans happen to have consciousness, so you play out this role as a conscious being.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7784140 - 12/21/07 12:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
While we can perceive nature, I think it would be as hard to prove it exists as it would be to prove god exists.
Well, if you want to get all technical, there exist persuasive arguments that say I am the only thing in the universe and you're are a figment. 
Similarly, it would be hard to prove that god and nature are not one in the same.
It would be impossible to prove. But again, you reject the simple explanation (Nature) that already covers primacy as well as the God idea, and you replace it with the complicated God-Nature-Same-Thing idea that again states God, by an AMAZING coincidence, is anthropomorphic.
I don't buy it. We create God in our image.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784144 - 12/21/07 12:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Doesn't make it THE explanation, but barring some reason to lean toward the more-complicated God explanation it makes more sense to keep anthropomorphism out of the picture and tacitly go with the Nature explanation until something better (read: simpler, more elegant, better aligned with Occam, consistent with available observations) comes along.
You are obviously referencing the FSM.
--------------------
|
Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand


Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Amber_Glow]
#7784147 - 12/21/07 12:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
StreetFreak put it quite nicely in a thread currently in the Pub:
"God is everything at the same time."
|
symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784151 - 12/21/07 12:27 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Or maybe they've been blest to experience the "other side" before death so they can be messengers of truth.
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Amber_Glow]
#7784153 - 12/21/07 12:28 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
I don't think there was originally an intimation that God should know the future.
Well, the billion or so Catholics on the planet believe God knows EVERYTHING, including the future. He created time, no?
Their view is absolutist: God konws E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G! No exceptions of any kind whatsoever.
And I'm pretty sure the billion or so Muslims believe this too.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784158 - 12/21/07 12:33 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Are you a Catholic? If not, why do you place so much importance on their beliefs? Live and let be, my good man. If you have a personal vendetta against the catholic church, I'm afraid you're not going to find many to debate on your grounds because a lot of the posters here are not representative of the catholic church
--------------------
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
So basically you are saying that you are better than people who make up definitions of something called God which is made up, because of your own idea of God which you have made up
Nope.
Like I already said: I have exactly ZERO experience of God. Everything I know about God I get from True Believers.
And since 100 TBs will give 100 different, contradicting explanations of what God is (just read this thread if you don't believe me) I go with the two biggest authorities on Earth: the Vatican and the leaders of Sunni Islam who account for over two billion TBs.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7784161 - 12/21/07 12:36 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The answer to your question is FIVE TONS OF FLAX!"
Last time I ate that much flax, I got constipated.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Amber_Glow
Sat Chit Anand


Registered: 09/02/02
Posts: 1,543
Last seen: 10 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784172 - 12/21/07 12:41 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Some people in this thread said they were God. All of those people are having an experience. If you are God, you are experiencing God by having your personal experience.
You have plenty of experience of God.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
#7784179 - 12/21/07 12:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Or maybe they've been blest to experience the "other side" before death so they can be messengers of truth.
Again, there is as much evidence of this as there is of the Tooth Fairy. Why do so many people reject the Tooth Fairy's existence but accept God's existence based on the same non-existing evidence?
I'll tell you why again: anthropomorphism. We create God in our image. The Tooth Fairy isn't human, so she's rejected but God, well, he's an old guy in the sky with white hair and a beard. That's plenty human enough for religion! Yeah!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
|
Are you a Catholic?
I was raised Catholic. I was even an altar boy.
why do you place so much importance on their beliefs?
Because I have to start somewhere. As I've already said, if you ask 100 True Believers what God is, you'll get 100 inconsistencies. Just look at the myriad definitions for God that have popped up in this thread alone.
Because TBs can't come to any sort of consensus on what God is (surprised?), I have to pick a golden standard and a billion Catholics in the world follow what the infallible Vatican says. It's from the Vatican that I get my working definition.
Give me a better one and I'll use it.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Amber_Glow]
#7784193 - 12/21/07 12:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Some people in this thread said they were God. All of those people are having an experience. If you are God, you are experiencing God by having your personal experience.
Maybe they experienced God. Maybe they WANT to experience God so much that they've convinced themselves that they did. Since there is no way to address what is in someone's head, who can say?
You have plenty of experience of God.
Nope. There are plenty of experiences of something. That's all that can be said.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784195 - 12/21/07 01:00 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
All these people saying they were God, yet not one can perform even a minor miracle (like using logic), never mind jump-starting a new universe.
--------------------
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784212 - 12/21/07 01:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Maybe you've convinced yourself that you believe nature to exist? "Since there is no way to address what is in someone's head, who can say?"
I think at best, one can say "I perceive god to exist" and likewise "I perceive nature to exist" or really, "I perceive _______ to exist"
Everything that you can sense requires you to filter it through your senses, so in some sense god is just as real (or unreal) as everything else, depending on your perception. Yet another reason why god can't really be tied down with words, because any arguement against his existence could be used as an arguement about anything's existence.
|
EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7784214 - 12/21/07 01:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Maybe there is a consensus, but our human idiosyncrasies make us express something in a different way? That's why I don't like using the word God to explain something.. because it causes people such as yourself to instantly bring up catholic programming in their mind and instantly rationalize the statement away because it brings to mind negative memories or just reactionary behavior.
That's why I don't believe in God, because if I believed in God, I would apparently be believing in a God as defined by someone else which could never be my own understanding because it comes from the extra baggage of this other person's baggage of their desires or fears of what God, or Everything, is.
Quote:
Nope. There are plenty of experiences of something. That's all that can be said.
Yes, that is true. And which is why talking about God is not going to get us towards any kind of truth, but if we are talking about a hypothetical God, then there should be no problem comparing hypothetical arguments. Some people choose to call this experience of something "God" and assign properties to their experience - I don't believe this is in itself a delusion, but only becomes a delusion when one mistakes these hypothetical properties to be intimate knowledge of God's nature or ultimate reality. Nobody on this board is currently having the experience of timelessness or making choices with God, at least I don't think so, but it would not be logically impossible for these properties to be real.
The statement "God exists" tells us as much about God as the statement "Existence". So why do we need the word God? Because you wouldn't understand what I meant if I just made a thread with the title "Existence".
"Existence? What about it? It exists, duh!"
--------------------
Edited by EternalCowabunga (12/21/07 01:17 AM)
|
MarkostheGnostic
Elder


Registered: 12/09/99
Posts: 14,279
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 2 days
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7784599 - 12/21/07 05:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
You are basing your post on some of the grandiose assumptions of humankind, namely, claiming to know and understand God. The word denotes certain gross anthropomorphic projections of the human psyche onto The Transcendent, which is always a The Mystery. Omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence are frequently applied attributes based on certain classic conceptions of perfection.
Conversely, there may be a certain sense of 'Becoming,' as well as Being when it comes to the nature of God in creation. This is called 'Process Theology' and it has been around since Charles Hartshorne at the turn of the 20th century http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hartshorne In India there has long been a notion of God a s gradually coming to consciousness from unconsciousness (Vishnu dreams the universe into existence!) So, while it is fascinating fun to discuss these possibilities, one must be careful to examine one's philosophical assumptions before proceeding.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
|
OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
Loc: Under the C
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7787651 - 12/21/07 11:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Why would God have to explain God to God?
--------------------
|
fivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7788355 - 12/22/07 09:34 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Diploid said: Are you a Catholic?
I was raised Catholic. I was even an altar boy.
why do you place so much importance on their beliefs?
Because I have to start somewhere. As I've already said, if you ask 100 True Believers what God is, you'll get 100 inconsistencies. Just look at the myriad definitions for God that have popped up in this thread alone.
Because TBs can't come to any sort of consensus on what God is (surprised?), I have to pick a golden standard and a billion Catholics in the world follow what the infallible Vatican says. It's from the Vatican that I get my working definition.
Give me a better one and I'll use it.
If you want to start somewhere why not start at the scripture alone as your authority for Christian doctrine? Roman Catholic doctrine sets aside scripture and replaces it what it declares in plain defiance of scripture on most essential / non-essential points.
Truth is not decided by numbers of people believing something, truth just is. I could go on and on about how Catholics have set aside God's Word and replaced it with vain imaginations.
|
Boots
Disenchanted


Registered: 07/25/07
Posts: 1,137
Loc: Northwood, Ohio, U.S.A.
Last seen: 15 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Silversoul]
#7788489 - 12/22/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Couldn't an omniscient 'god' be all-knowing about what path our free will will take us
|
Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: fivepointer]
#7792022 - 12/23/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Roman Catholic doctrine sets aside scripture and replaces it what it declares
So do you. So does every True Believer. And none agrees with any other.
Your advice is no better than the Vatican's.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
|
Anarleaf
Teotihualto



Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 156
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7792488 - 12/23/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
How about the argument that God does not have to exist? There is no need for a God, we coexist and thrive without it. People use the name of god to bring upon morals, but society all ready has its own notions.
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Anarleaf]
#7792521 - 12/23/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Quote:
How about the argument that God does not have to exist? There is no need for a God, we coexist and thrive without it.
I like 
Quote:
People use the name of god to bring upon morals, but society all ready has its own notions.
Yes, people hide behind what god means to justify their own fears and create laws and rules against what they feel vulnerable. And as long as this happens, not much chance and room for healing.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Anarleaf]
#7792798 - 12/23/07 02:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
"There is no need for a God, we coexist and thrive without it. "
While this is one way of seeing our world, I'm sure there are plenty of religious folks who would argue that religion is the reason we thrive (after all, it is a little too popular to truthfully say that we thrive (or even suffer) without it. Religion most assuredly does affect our lives, even for those who are not affiliated with any particular one.
|
Diglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7792815 - 12/23/07 02:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
are morals a mandate from god, making them good because god says so. Or are there absolute truths in the moral realm, making them inherently good, while others are inherently evil. i say things are wrong because man kind would wish those things not to be done to them (the golden rule type thing). without religion, humanity in my eye would suffer the same morality.
|
ObliviousSeeker
Stranger


Registered: 08/25/06
Posts: 198
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
#7793455 - 12/23/07 06:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Why can't god and free will exist? How do you know that you have free will at all? We're all limited to laws of physics, we can't fly so my will to fly is useless. Do animals have free will? Does Hellen Keller have free will?
You're implying that God being omnipotent is like him knowing what he's going to do ahead of himself... and in essence know everything about everything before it happens...which doesn't even make sense!
Bottom line is you can't try to understand an infinite mind with a finite one because you have absolutely no way to conclude any kind of accuracy. Like you could be so way off on everything from the very core of your beliefs outward.. so yea, God's awesome.
|
MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



Registered: 12/02/05
Posts: 14,794
Loc: red panda village
Last seen: 2 years, 10 months
|
|
Yeah god's awesome. So is the easter bunny. And the tooth fairy. 
And yes, we are limited by the laws of physics. So what? What exactly is your point? How does that cancels free will? Free will is NOT about getting to do whatever you want. Free will is about acknowledging the multitude of options and opportunities that are around you, understanding their outcomes and DELIBERATELY choose the one that appeals to you.
--------------------
   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
|
crumblebum
The Guy Who's Really Bad At Sex


Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 1,459
Last seen: 3 years, 2 months
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Silversoul]
#7793673 - 12/23/07 08:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The only solution to the afformentioned problem I've heard of that wasn't total crap and easily tear apart able, is this:
God exists outside of time, and the humanly perceptable timeline does not apply to God, and exists only to create rationality for Man. Therefore, God is aware of existence as a single point, at best, after and before everything has happened.
The softer version was that God existed at all points on the timeline at once.
The real issue it boils down too is free will/determinism, which no one has come up with a "good" answer for. Determinism is represented in this case by the existence of God, and said being's foreknowledge ruling out Free Will.
Even without a god, there's physics. Free will is pretty fucked if you acknowledge mechanistic thinking, or anything like it.
The God spoken of here who simply has the capacity to predict possible outcomes is similar to a concept called "Laplace's Demon", a theoretical entity that has an accurate picture of the state of the universe at the "Big Bang" and a complete knowledge of the physical laws governing the universe, said entity could predict everything that would happen ever, as everything that happens must find it's root Cause in this event. Once you acknowledge that the universe is governed by physical laws, there's basically no room for "Free Will".
I've never encountered a defense of free will that didn't have serious flaws. They either make unproveable assumptions, or just ignore stuff.
--------------------
|
Anarleaf
Teotihualto



Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 156
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7795469 - 12/24/07 12:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
While I see your point, and I also believe that religion has done good things, it does not mean we still need it.
As of today, it is unnecessary and has led to violence and hatred from virtually all religions.
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Anarleaf]
#7795531 - 12/24/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
Violence and hatred are two things which can only be done by man, never by the concept of something like religion.
|
Anarleaf
Teotihualto



Registered: 01/19/07
Posts: 156
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7796457 - 12/24/07 07:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
But what are the excuses for war? Isn't there currently a battle between Sunni and Shiite due to holy land? Religion isn't causing the tensions, but people are excusing their violence because of their extreme convictions.
Edited by Anarleaf (12/24/07 07:24 PM)
|
xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
|
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Anarleaf]
#7796578 - 12/24/07 08:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
|
|
The excuse matters much less than most think. War is rarely fought for one reason alone.
You hit the nail right on the head that the religion is rarely the cause of tension, but I disagree with the motive of your second statement. There will of course, be apologists for religious war, but there will always be apologists, no matter what the cause (try starting a thread about the NSA or the patriot act if you want to see what I mean firsthand). When it comes down to it, it isn't Sunni vs. Shiite, its Group A vs. Group B.
|
|