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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782429 - 12/20/07 05:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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what does "knowing everything" mean? before and after wouldn't exist for god because he is TIMELESS. I don't think you understand what that really means.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782487 - 12/20/07 05:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: BZZT! Then it's not God. God, by definition in this context, is omniscient. That means he knows EVERYTHING, including before and after and during.
It's the absolutist concept "omniscient" that fucks the True Believer's position. If God knows everything, then he can't not know something and that's required for a choice (free will) to exist.
The option of picking what God wasn't anticipating IS free will. If he was anticipated by an omniscient being, then the unanticipated choice must be either impossible to choose or by choosing it, God is rendered wrong and so not omniscient (not God) after all.
For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure seem to know a lot about him.
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symbiotic
insighted


Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: fivepointer]
#7782504 - 12/20/07 05:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Whatever man profoundly BELIEVES himself to be, good or bad, that will he become. Whatever man FEARS others will do to him, so will they do. Whatever man HOPES that others will do to him, he must first do to them, since he is then creating a ‘consciousness pattern’ which will return to bless him to the extent he has blest others. Whatever disease man DREADS so will he become prey to it for he will have created a ‘consciousness pattern’ of the very thing he least wants to experience. Whatever is sent forth from man’s mind and heart - returns to him in due course in some form or another, but remember that like always breeds like. Strongly emotional thoughts are ‘consciousness- seeds’ planted within a man’s own orbit of consciousness. These will grow, bearing a like harvest for his reaping.
These are the fruits of free will.
There is no way that man may escape what he thinks, says or does - for he is born of the Divine Creative Consciousness power and is likewise creative in his imagining.
christsway.co.za
-------------------- The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Silversoul]
#7782760 - 12/20/07 06:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure seem to know a lot about him.
All I know about God I get from you guys.
The things I have personal knowledge of is how contradictory the idea of an infallible, all-knowing God who infallibly knows you're choosing #7 on the menu for lunch tomorrow rendering any alternate choice, and therefore the free will opportunity to choose it, unavailable.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782783 - 12/20/07 06:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thats where you go wrong. You cannot "tie down" god, reguardless. There is no such thing as contradiction to an omnipotent being, you cannot logically bind its power, it will always just be a paper tiger.
(And this is from someone who does not believe in god)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782794 - 12/20/07 06:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: For someone who doesn't believe in God, you sure seem to know a lot about him.
All I know about God I get from you guys.
And yet when someone offers certain ideas of God, you say that their idea doesn't meet the definition of God. Your idea of God seems very Aristotelean -- an omnipotent "unmoved mover." This idea, though it has been incorporated into Christian orthodoxy, is not the way most of the world's religions conceive of God. It isn't even consistent with many of the ideas within the Abrahamic tradition. The Old Testament is full of examples where God is swayed by the pleas of a prophet. Kabbalists especially can understand how God doesn't really control creation as much as he interacts with it. If you're a gamer, you might actually have some clue about this, as many god games operate on a similar principle.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7782799 - 12/20/07 06:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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If I knew you were going to choose #7 because you are my friend and we've been eating at the same place for 10 years and you always get #7... does that mean I chose #7 for you? Think about it...
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
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Maybe the choice you make is the choice god makes?
Maybe free-will and determinism don't clash, but to compare them is to make the category mistake?
Dunno.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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that's pretty much what i'm saying, god knows what you are doing in the present because he is doing that with you, he doesn't know what you are going to do in the future because the future doesn't exist so the argument that diploid presented is inherently flawed
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
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If you consider time to be much like a spacial dimension, and were able to transcend it, you'd see all of time laid out in a non-moving fashion, but sequentially throughout space. In Hindusim this is called the Lira Shingra (Long Body), I think. The idea is that free-will and choice is an illusion. Nothing is happening but linear movement along this spacial dimension we call time. If you could learn how to move non-linearly, you might figure out time travel :shroom:. But my point is that to even ponder free-will may be an absurdity and irrelevant.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
Edited by jonathanseagull (12/20/07 08:12 PM)
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Ya, I know what you mean.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Silversoul]
#7783173 - 12/20/07 08:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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And yet when someone offers certain ideas of God, you say that their idea doesn't meet the definition of God. Your idea of God seems very Aristotelean
Nope. Again, my definitions of God, like everything God, I get from believers.
The two most populous religions on Earth are Catholicism and Suni Islam. Together they account for over 2 billion believers. Both those religions define God as omniscient and infallible.
Since I have no experience of God whatsoever, I can only set my God-definitions to match theirs.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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If I knew you were going to choose
This is neither here nor there. You're not omniscient.
And if you claimed you were (as is claimed for God), then I'd ask you what number I'm going to choose, and when you say #7, I'd choose #8, thus proving you fallible and so your claim of omniscience false.
Same goes for God. If I ask him what #, then I choose another number, God cannot be omniscient. If I ask him what number and, because of God's foreknowledge, it cannot happen that I choose another one, then I don't have the free will to choose another one.
Think about it...
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783236 - 12/20/07 08:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yes, he can be omniscient, because he is god. I feel like a broken record that no one is listening to. I mean Christ, I've had this same arguement with people a hundred times. I always tried to make the same arguement that you are making diploid, but the fact of the matter is that its doesn't mean anything. IT will always come down to: "You cannot speak about that which you cannot know."
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783258 - 12/20/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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who are these believers and where can i see the scripture they adhere to. it sounds like the definition you are using is a projection of your own need for god's definition to be contrary to his nature, which you do not believe in, for the apparently sole reason that the definition, which is the one that you have created in your own mind as a distorted version of the "enemies" idea. all of your posts come off as if you are scared of the possibility that you could one day believe in the idea of God because you have distanced that idea from yourself by projecting an "enemy" status on that idea and then you actually stand there and say that this enemy idea is wrong
but of course it's wrong, because you created it that way. and then you want to say "only look at my creation, it is the one and true creation" and then when other's point to their own creation, you say that they don't even exist. my god man, you've made yourself out to be some kind of god.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
#7783263 - 12/20/07 08:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then explain to me what happens at the juncture when I ask God what menu number I'm going to choose, then I choose another one.
If you're tired of going around like a broken record, just address that scenario.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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xFrockx



Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 15 hours
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783296 - 12/20/07 08:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I cannot adress it as a man, nor can anyone. However, god can address it as god. Its only a paper tiger, just like "Can god create a boulder he himself cannot lift?" It is meaningless because you cannot tie god down logically. I think you need to read some Kant.
edit: this may help somewhat, although some of it is, admittedly, over my head.
Quote:
As such, the noumenal 'world' of freedom can be regarded simply as the phenomenal world viewed from the standpoint of freedom.
This means freedom is found in immediate experience, though not as 'an object of experience' [Kt7i:195], but 'by its possible effect ['in nature']' [Kt7: 474]; its effect is undetectable only when experience is viewed from the standpoint of systemt [Kt1:843]. As Vleeschauwer puts it in V4:120-1: 'If the subject is considered in so far as he is temporally conditioned, his acts are physically determined...;
http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/ksp1/KSP8A.html
Edited by xFrockx (12/20/07 08:34 PM)
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jonathanseagull
Cool!


Registered: 10/28/05
Posts: 993
Last seen: 10 years, 11 days
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783315 - 12/20/07 08:32 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Then explain to me what happens at the juncture when I ask God what menu number I'm going to choose, then I choose another one.
If you're tried of going around like a broken record, just address that scenario.
Quote:
jonathanseagull said: Maybe the choice you make is the choice god makes?
Maybe free-will and determinism don't clash, but to compare them is to make the category mistake?
Dunno.
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Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.
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Diploid
Cuban



Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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who are these believers and where can i see the scripture they adhere to
Catholics: http://www.vatican.va/ -- And take it from me, I was raised Catholic. They believe God is omniscient and infallible. Hell, they believe the pope is infallible too.
Muslims: http://www.al-islam.org/encyclopedia/chapter1b/5.html -- They believe Allah is omniscient and infallible and by extension, their Imams who communicate directly with God are infallible too.
Interesting how two groups of people with incompatible beliefs both claim infallibility.
Gotta love those True Believers!
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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EternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance



Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
#7783343 - 12/20/07 08:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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So, True Believers = Catholics and Muslims = Believe in a God based on the definitions I have decided
Was that your argument?
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