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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleDiglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
free will and the infallible god
    #7781009 - 12/20/07 10:17 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

an omniscient god and free will can not exist. this seems to be one of the more easily understood "haha's" of religion in general; yet i would still like to see someone argue this point. can anyone explain how a god who is all knowing, apparently infallible in knowing the outcome of ever situation, can co-exist with mans free will? that is, if mans outcome is understood before it is acted on, does he truly have free will?


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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 3,103
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7781101 - 12/20/07 10:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I think a lot could depend on how you define omniscient.

I know omniscient means all knowing. But couldn't it just as easily mean "all knowing, except for the future"?

I guess I'm not really arguing against your point because it is a good one. I'm just trying to offer another point.

I believe in some type of God but I think the idea of absolute destiny is absolutely ludicrous. We make decisions that effect our lives tremendously every day. So I see our free will as something tangible that's easy to believe in. But I also think there could be room for free will and destiny to co-exist. For example, maybe there are multiple destinies mapped out for each individual and the decisions that we make determine which one. A good thing to compare that to would be those books that were popular in elementary school where if you want to do this you go to page 171 and if you want to do that you go to 192. Remember them?


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OfflineWScott
´ ɑ `▽ ᑲᓇᑕ
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Registered: 07/31/05
Posts: 5,713
Loc: Nacada
Last seen: 9 months, 15 days
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7781114 - 12/20/07 10:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Infinite paths, one destination?


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InvisibleDiglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7781123 - 12/20/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

goosebumps, fuckin a dude.

even in that scenario tho, wouldn't god know the choices that you would choose anyway? i guess not if you choose to say that the god doesnt know the future, but to me that is one superpower i think a god would need.


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Invisibletruffleupagus
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Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 3,103
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7781155 - 12/20/07 11:05 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah man, I don't know. I feel pretty strong about my belief in some type of God.

What that God knows or It's capacity for knowledge is a whole 'nother story though. I try not to think about that stuff too much. I might fuck around and hurt my head or something.


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InvisibleDiglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7781167 - 12/20/07 11:09 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

we should challenge our beliefs, especially when we are the most certain. Socratic challenge right there. but your point makes sense. a god would be a little much for humanity to try and understand, but we have reason for something. perhaps its to find god reasonably.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 11 days, 14 hours
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7781175 - 12/20/07 11:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I know its tempting, as I am an agnostic myself, but you cannot argue against god, fallible or not. The religious argument will always be that you cannot put boundaries on god, as he is not bound to any of the human limits, including logic.


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Offlinesymbiotic
insighted
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Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7781202 - 12/20/07 11:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I have dreams of future events so I said no way do we have free will. But as I verbalized it I thought maybe our dreams manifest events into our lives? Then I heard this lyric. "everything i manifest in my life is that which i contemplate from the wake and dreaming"-satya yuga
I definately think we need to constantly question authority because the majority is to scared to do it or something. www.educate-yourself.org

This ones good "passengers on different cars steppin' off the same train"-Jurassic 5


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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.


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Offlinesymbiotic
insighted
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Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
    #7781212 - 12/20/07 11:20 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

beliefs build walls


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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.


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InvisibleDiglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7781217 - 12/20/07 11:21 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

if god can hide and not be questioned, then perhaps it (instead of he) could also be evil. but i guess that is just saying that morals are a mandate from heaven...and that should be another debate another day.


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InvisibleDiglottic_Sun
Stranger in astrange land


Registered: 12/15/07
Posts: 35
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
    #7781227 - 12/20/07 11:25 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

symbiotic said:
beliefs build walls




but if they arent the right beliefs, or morally not correct, than they would build the wrong walls. just know why you believe something.


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OfflinexFrockx
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Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,455
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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7781290 - 12/20/07 11:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

God could be good, evil, both, or neither, and all of these at the same time and there would still be no conflict, because its god.


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Offlinesymbiotic
insighted
Male

Registered: 12/18/07
Posts: 105
Loc: ok,nm,co,ca,or
Last seen: 15 years, 1 month
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7781295 - 12/20/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I am saying keep an open mind or you might be closing yourself off to something greater than what you believe


--------------------
The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.


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Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 7 years, 2 months
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7782277 - 12/20/07 04:34 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diglottic_Sun said:
an omniscient god and free will can not exist. this seems to be one of the more easily understood "haha's" of religion in general; yet i would still like to see someone argue this point. can anyone explain how a god who is all knowing, apparently infallible in knowing the outcome of ever situation, can co-exist with mans free will? that is, if mans outcome is understood before it is acted on, does he truly have free will?



Speaking from a Christian perspective man does not have a free will. Man only acts according to his internal inclination, only in this sense is the will free. Man has no ability to alter himself to change this inclination. Only by the power of God does that internal nature change, and then he will act according to the new nature which has been implanted.

God Himself either leaves a person alone or converts them, either way all things are ordained according to God's decree and will. This is the classic Protestant Reformed/Calvinistic (the Christian) position on the matter.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7782298 - 12/20/07 04:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

truffleupagus said:
I think a lot could depend on how you define omniscient.

I know omniscient means all knowing. But couldn't it just as easily mean "all knowing, except for the future"?

I guess I'm not really arguing against your point because it is a good one. I'm just trying to offer another point.

I believe in some type of God but I think the idea of absolute destiny is absolutely ludicrous. We make decisions that effect our lives tremendously every day. So I see our free will as something tangible that's easy to believe in. But I also think there could be room for free will and destiny to co-exist. For example, maybe there are multiple destinies mapped out for each individual and the decisions that we make determine which one. A good thing to compare that to would be those books that were popular in elementary school where if you want to do this you go to page 171 and if you want to do that you go to 192. Remember them?



You might want to check out this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process_theology


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InvisibleEternalCowabunga
Being of Great Significance
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Registered: 04/04/05
Posts: 7,152
Loc: Time and Space
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: fivepointer]
    #7782311 - 12/20/07 04:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

in response to the OP:

Omniscience and free will can co-exist. For example, god knows the outcome of what you are doing while you are doing it, not before and after. Our actions are free but God still knows what we would choose in a given circumstance because he knows us all personally. A timeless God means paradoxically he only exists in the eternal present, knowing his creation as it unfolds.

Not my personal belief, but a valid argument.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: truffleupagus]
    #7782340 - 12/20/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah man, I don't know. I feel pretty strong about my belief in some type of God.

What that God knows or It's capacity for knowledge is a whole 'nother story though.


If it's not omniscient, it's not God, by definition.

A non-omniscient creature with a lot of knowledge is essentially just a very technologically advanced creature, but fundamentally no different than you or me.

Why worship such an ordinary creature?

Respect, maybe. Admire, sure. Be impressed by its knowledge, absolutely. But kneel down, bow my head, and worship it?

Get real!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7782369 - 12/20/07 04:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

God is so far out of our comprehension that we can't even imagine what it is.

Yet somehow, you know enough to explain to us how God treats free will and chooses our destiny, and you even make matter-of-fact statements about its basic nature and physical non-existence.

That's a good one! Is there anything else you'd like to tell us about this thing that's "so far out of our comprehension that we can't even imagine what is is"? :confused:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7782415 - 12/20/07 05:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
If it's not omniscient, it's not God, by definition.



This seems a very narrow definition of God. God is, as Markos often puts it, The Ground of Being. God is the source of all creation from whom all of reality flows out. Such a being need not be omnipotent to fit such qualifications.


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InvisibleDiploidM
Cuban


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7782420 - 12/20/07 05:10 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

god knows the outcome of what you are doing while you are doing it, not before and after

BZZT! Then it's not God. God, by definition in this context, is omniscient. That means he knows EVERYTHING, including before and after and during.

It's the absolutist concept "omniscient" that fucks the True Believer's position. If God knows everything, then he can't not know something and that's required for a choice (free will) to exist.

The option of picking what God wasn't anticipating IS free will. If he was anticipated by an omniscient being, then the unanticipated choice must be either impossible to choose or by choosing it, God is rendered wrong and so not omniscient (not God) after all.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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