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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784061 -

i think it's contrived to spout out "occam's razor!" as if saying that was just as good as actually making an argument

come on diploid, you can be more creative than that


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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7784071 -

Yes, but saying that "Nature is" doesn't make "God is" any less valid either.

This is true. We can't know it's God and we can't know it's not-God.

But we can use reason to see that if God is primacy and inevitable and you supply some argument, then you can also say that Nature is primacy and inevitable and you can defend it with the exact same argument.

In other words, any reason you can come up with for why God must be at the top of the construct can be used to to state that Nature is at the top of the construct because in the end there is no evidence either way.

When you take both arguments and compare them, the God argument is contrived and doesn't conform to the available observations. It injects anthropomorphic constructs that are not necessary to explain existence. Meanwhile, the Nature argument flows, um, naturally with no anthropomorphic coloration. It's the simpler and more elegant of the two explanations.

Doesn't make it THE explanation, but barring some reason to lean toward the more-complicated God explanation it makes more sense to keep anthropomorphism out of the picture and tacitly go with the Nature explanation until something better (read: simpler, more elegant, better aligned with Occam, consistent with available observations) comes along.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7784074 -

These are pretty much my exact beliefs
http://educate-yourself.org/mbc/


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The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7784086 -

How about you are standing there at the restaurant with god, chillin, talking about what you want to eat. God wants the chicken sandwich, but they only have fried chicken and he is on a diet (prediabetic, go figure). So, needless to say, he's a little pissed off. God has never been known as one to keep his temper, so as you try to pull one over on him, he enacts his wrath. I believe the dialogue would go something like this:

God: So Diploid, what do you think you're getting?

You: I'm not sure, what am I getting god?

God: Hmm... (furrows brow) you're getting killed for being a heretic.

You: WRONG! I'm getting the #5... wait, what?

*BOOM*

You explode for disobeying god's will, you get no sandwich.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784098 -

While we can perceive nature, I think it would be as hard to prove it exists as it would be to prove god exists. Similarly, it would be hard to prove that god and nature are not one in the same.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
    #7784104 -

You aren't going to last very long like this, you know that, right?

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
    #7784114 -

From your link: We are all IMMORTAL SPIRIT BEINGS who have lived out THOUSANDS of other physical lives here on earth before this one. Each time we die, we return to the spirit world...

This is EXACTLY the kind of stuff I DON'T believe. Why not? Because it's just a narrative; a story. The guy just starts talking and provides no reasons other than because he said so.

True Believers who buy into this sort of stuff never seem to apply critical thinking. They never demand at least some semblance of a rational, thought out explanation and instead eat up any sufficiently long, rambling story even when that story reads more like a kid's fairy tale than adult discourse. :shrug:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diglottic_Sun]
    #7784127 -

I think some of us are misinterpreting how we should understand the word "omniscient". Let's take a look at the dictionary:

omniscient:
1. having complete or unlimited knowledge, awareness, or understanding; perceiving all things.

I think when this word or idea was originally used to describe God it suggested that God knew everything that IS. That is, God experiences and has knowledge of all things or events that are happening NOW. An All Seeing Eye. I am reminded of this Christmas song, I was just thinking about it earlier today:

Santa Claus is coming to town:
"He knows when you are sleeping
He knows when you're awake
He knows when you've
been bad or good
So be good for goodness sake"

This expresses the idea of Santa being omniscient. Santa is sort of a God Lite for children. Someone knows everything, and will reward or punish you. Hell vs. Heaven, Coal vs. Toys. But he certainly isn't going to punish you for something you are yet to do, it hasn't happened yet! Anyway..

God experiences through his creation. He experiences through us (and everything else). It is because God experiences all things at once that he is described as omniscient. I don't think there was originally an intimation that God should know the future.

And if he were to know the future, then omniscient would imply that he knows all possibilities. He must experience all these possibilities in order to know them. In essence, everything has happened and is happening now. Every possibility has been fulfilled. You simply perceive things along one strand of possibility, but every other possibility also happens. You are a function of one possibility that needs to be experienced. Humans happen to have consciousness, so you play out this role as a conscious being.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7784140 -

While we can perceive nature, I think it would be as hard to prove it exists as it would be to prove god exists.

Well, if you want to get all technical, there exist persuasive arguments that say I am the only thing in the universe and you're are a figment. :tongue:

Similarly, it would be hard to prove that god and nature are not one in the same.

It would be impossible to prove. But again, you reject the simple explanation (Nature) that already covers primacy as well as the God idea, and you replace it with the complicated God-Nature-Same-Thing idea that again states God, by an AMAZING coincidence, is anthropomorphic.

I don't buy it. We create God in our image. :yesnod:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784144 -

Quote:
Doesn't make it THE explanation, but barring some reason to lean toward the more-complicated God explanation it makes more sense to keep anthropomorphism out of the picture and tacitly go with the Nature explanation until something better (read: simpler, more elegant, better aligned with Occam, consistent with available observations) comes along.



You are obviously referencing the FSM.


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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #7784147 -

StreetFreak put it quite nicely in a thread currently in the Pub:

"God is everything at the same time."

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784151 -

Or maybe they've been blest to experience the "other side" before death so they can be messengers of truth.


--------------------
The greatest journey we can make is about 12 inches, from our heads to our hearts.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #7784153 -

I don't think there was originally an intimation that God should know the future.

Well, the billion or so Catholics on the planet believe God knows EVERYTHING, including the future. He created time, no?

Their view is absolutist: God konws E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G! No exceptions of any kind whatsoever.

And I'm pretty sure the billion or so Muslims believe this too.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784158 -

Are you a Catholic? If not, why do you place so much importance on their beliefs? Live and let be, my good man. If you have a personal vendetta against the catholic church, I'm afraid you're not going to find many to debate on your grounds because a lot of the posters here are not representative of the catholic church :shrug:


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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7784159 -

So basically you are saying that you are better than people who make up definitions of something called God which is made up, because of your own idea of God which you have made up

Nope.

Like I already said: I have exactly ZERO experience of God. Everything I know about God I get from True Believers.

And since 100 TBs will give 100 different, contradicting explanations of what God is (just read this thread if you don't believe me) I go with the two biggest authorities on Earth: the Vatican and the leaders of Sunni Islam who account for over two billion TBs.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7784161 -

The answer to your question is FIVE TONS OF FLAX!"

Last time I ate that much flax, I got constipated. :whoa:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784172 -

Some people in this thread said they were God. All of those people are having an experience. If you are God, you are experiencing God by having your personal experience.

You have plenty of experience of God.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: symbiotic]
    #7784179 -

Or maybe they've been blest to experience the "other side" before death so they can be messengers of truth.

Again, there is as much evidence of this as there is of the Tooth Fairy. Why do so many people reject the Tooth Fairy's existence but accept God's existence based on the same non-existing evidence?

I'll tell you why again: anthropomorphism. We create God in our image. The Tooth Fairy isn't human, so she's rejected but God, well, he's an old guy in the sky with white hair and a beard. That's plenty human enough for religion! Yeah!


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: EternalCowabunga]
    #7784183 -

Are you a Catholic?

I was raised Catholic. I was even an altar boy.

why do you place so much importance on their beliefs?

Because I have to start somewhere. As I've already said, if you ask 100 True Believers what God is, you'll get 100 inconsistencies. Just look at the myriad definitions for God that have popped up in this thread alone.

Because TBs can't come to any sort of consensus on what God is (surprised?), I have to pick a golden standard and a billion Catholics in the world follow what the infallible Vatican says. It's from the Vatican that I get my working definition.

Give me a better one and I'll use it.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Amber_Glow]
    #7784193 -

Some people in this thread said they were God. All of those people are having an experience. If you are God, you are experiencing God by having your personal experience.

Maybe they experienced God. Maybe they WANT to experience God so much that they've convinced themselves that they did. Since there is no way to address what is in someone's head, who can say?

You have plenty of experience of God.

Nope. There are plenty of experiences of something. That's all that can be said.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Shop: Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order   Myyco.com Golden Teacher Liquid Culture For Sale

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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