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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7783368 -

I cannot adress it as a man, nor can anyone.

Ah, this is the "cover your ears and sing I CAN'T HEAR YOU" rebuttal.

I paint you into a logical corner, then instead of answering my pinning question and engaging in a constructive debate, you bail out by pulling this classic out of thin air:

"It is meaningless because you cannot tie god down logically."

Up until I tossed you this pivotal question, you seemed to know a hell of a lot about God. Now you're trapped and conveniently disavow any knowledge of how God works.

Intellectually dishonest and par for the course for most believers.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7783377 -

Maybe the choice you make is the choice god makes?

If God makes the choice, it's not my choice and there is no free will. Is there an echo in here?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7783382 -

Diploid said:
Maybe the choice you make is the choice god makes?

If God makes the choice, it's not my choice and there is no free will. Is there an echo in here?


You don't understand what I'm getting at.


--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

Edited by jonathanseagull (12/20/07 10:44 PM)

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7783396 -

Because it doesn't makes sense. I choose or God chooses. Or we agree on a mutual choice.

Which one?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7783407 -

Diploid said:
Because it doesn't makes sense. I choose or God chooses. Or we agree on a mutual choice.

Which one?


Quote:
Excluded Middle (False Dichotomy, Faulty Dilemma, Bifurcation)

Assuming there are only two alternatives when in fact there are more. For example, assuming Atheism is the only alternative to Fundamentalism, or being a traitor is the only alternative to being a loud patriot.



--------------------
Loving in truth, and fain in verse my love to show, That the dear She might take some pleasure of my pain: Pleasure might cause her read, reading might make her know, Knowledge might pity win, and pity grace obtain.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7783427 -

Quote:
For example, assuming Atheism is the only alternative to Fundamentalism


For some reason I see this a lot by people who have been raised by religious parents. I wonder if there is a correlation between people who do very strongly disbelieve in a fundamentalist concept of God (to the extent that it becomes the foundation for their outlook on life) and those people having parents who do believe in a fundamentalist concept of God and trying to force it on their child.


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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7783429 -

What the fuck are you talking about? This whole time my entire arguement has been that you cannot logically tie god down. It is completely impossible. Don't you think philosophers haven't talked about this very same question for almost as long as there have been philosophers? I am just starting my philosophy major, and even with my basic knowledge I can tell you that you cannot logically tie down god, and doing so just makes you look like someone who knows nothing about philosophy or god.

I hardly think I'm "on par" with most believers, seeing as how I'm, for all intents and purposes, an atheist. I was where you are once, and I was made a fool of too many times by too many intelligent people, I'm doing you a favor by correcting you now.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7783474 -

What the fuck are you talking about? This whole time my entire arguement has been that you cannot logically tie god down. It is completely impossible.

What I'm talking about is that this is pure made up stuff. Somehow you know all about God and make all sorts of matter-of-fact proclamations, then you get cornered and back track that nobody can know God so you can't answer my simple question.

I'm doing you a favor by correcting you now.

OMG, thanks for the help! Dunno what I'd do without ya! :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7783500 -

So basically you are saying that you are better than people who make up definitions of something called God which is made up, because of your own idea of God which you have made up


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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7783675 -

Fine then, wallow in your ignorance and paper tigers, you are not worth mine or anyone else's time if you refuse to acknowledge basic philosophical principles.

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7783749 -

if you refuse to acknowledge basic philosophical principles.

Ah, you've got philosophy all figured out and are ready to teach us. I'm more and more impressed. :rolleyes:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7783863 -

There are some who still adhere to what you are saying, don't get me wrong, but even those people acknowlege that there are forms of omnipotence that are absolute, for example:

Peter Geach describes and rejects four levels of omnipotence. He also defines and defends a lesser notion of the "almightiness" of God.

"1. Y is absolutely omnipotent means that Y "can do everything absolutely. Everything that can be expressed in a string of words even if it can be shown to be self-contradictory," Y "is not bound in action, as we are in thought by the laws of logic."[9] This position is advanced by Descartes. It has the theological advantage of making God prior to the laws of logic, but the theological disadvantage of making God's promises suspect. On this account, the omnipotence paradox is a genuine paradox, but genuine paradoxes might nonetheless be so."

It is my belief that by simple definition, omnipotence must be absolute, if you choose to disagree, thats fine, whatever, but keep in mind that to think of gods omnipotence as anything other than absolute would mean that god would simply not be god. If there is a god, it made natural law, and it can change it. There's nothing wrong with a genuine paradox. This sentence is false.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7783913 -

OK, now that you're dropping the pretentious "I know more philosophy than you do, neener neener" stance, we can make some progress.

If there is a god, it made natural law, and it can change it.

What made God?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7783951 -

God is.

(If there is one anyway, I don't see a problem with it being omnipresent.)

edit: found this and thought it was hilarious and somewhat relevant, its from the Principa Discordia.

" GREATER POOP: Are you really serious or what?
MAL-2: Sometimes I take humor seriously. Sometimes I take seriousness humorously. Either way it is irrelevant.

GP: Maybe you are just crazy.
M2: Indeed! But do not reject these teaching as false because I am crazy. The reason that I am crazy is because they are true.

GP: Is Eris true?
M2: Everything is true.
GP: Even false things?
M2: Even false things are true.
GP: How can that be?
M2: I don't know man, I didn't do it.

GP: Why do you deal with so many negatives?
M2: To dissolve them.
GP: Will you develop that point?
M2: No.

GP: Is there an essential meaning behind POEE?
M2: There is a Zen Story about a student who asked a Master to explain the meaning of Buddhism. The Master's reply was "Three pounds of flax."
GP: Is that the answer to my question?
M2: No, of course not. That is just illustrative. The answer to your question is FIVE TONS OF FLAX!"

Edited by xFrockx (12/21/07 01:21 AM)

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: jonathanseagull]
    #7783975 -

Excluded Middle (False Dichotomy, Faulty Dilemma, Bifurcation)

False Dichotomy? I offered the three options available in ALL combination of two active bits, Me and God:

01 - I choose
10 - God chooses
11 - We both agree on a choice

Those are all the combinations available and it's far and away more than your 'False Monotomy' one and only God explanation that doesn't even make sense.

"The choice I make is the choice God makes?" What?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784012 -

Perhaps at your moment of decision an infinite number of realities are formed for all possibilities that may happen, with each reality persisting into infinity. You choose the outcome of one reality, but through being omnipotent, god knows what will happen in the infinite number of realities so he can tell you what you will pick, because at that point the realities are not split, and he can definitely confirm that your being will pick it, but when you choose another you become a part of one of these different realities, where not only did you pick the number you chose, but god just got done telling you which one it was.


Wait... what? I'm not even high, thats right, booya.

Edited by xFrockx (12/21/07 01:36 AM)

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7784023 -

God is.

No, Nature is.

And that's as valid an answer as yours, in every way.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784037 -

Yes, but saying that "Nature is" doesn't make "God is" any less valid either.

(which is another reason why I believe it is impossible to pin god down with words)

Edited by xFrockx (12/21/07 01:43 AM)

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Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: xFrockx]
    #7784046 -

Perhaps at your moment of decision an infinite number of realities are formed for all possibilities that may happen, with each reality persisting into infinity. You choose the outcome of one reality, but through being omnipotent, god knows what will happen in the infinite number of realities so he can tell you what you will pick, because at that point the realities are not split, and he can definitely confirm that your being will pick it, but when you choose another you become a part of one of these different realities, where not only did you pick the number you chose, but god just got done telling you which one it was.

Holy shit! Can you say Contrived? Ever heard of Occam's Razor? :whoa:

Wait... what? I'm not even high, thats right, booya.

/Dip passes xFrockx the bong. :bigweed:


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: free will and the infallible god [Re: Diploid]
    #7784053 -

Contrived? Absolutely. I didn't know that was against the rules. Occam did say that the simplest solution is best. When I think of one simpler, I'll report back, but until then, I'm the best! Err... My arguement is the best.


As for the bong, I wish... I haven't had a proper bong rip in more than 24 hours, this shit is getting out of hand.

Edited by xFrockx (12/21/07 01:51 AM)

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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