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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736871 -

Silversoul said:
Paleocon said:
it's whether or not God asks you to kill that differs.


And therefore God has changed his mind.


No. The law against murder is the same, the only difference is that human beings and their situation have changed. Like I said--some of those pagan countries were committing crimes like infant sacrifices, and legally sanctioned rape. Those were probably the reason why God ordered so many people killed.

Now at days such practices are not legal, so God has no reason to order killings like he did before.

The standards have remained the same-God's specific orders given to specific people in specific times are different.

Hence God has remained constant, it is only the secular world that has changed.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736879 -

Icelander said:
I just can't get mad at the little buggers anymore. Posting with them has helped me work that out. I now just try to have some fun with them and spread the joy. Besides, they're terrified and so cannot help being the way they are.Their god just made them a little bit dysfunctional because he has a sense of humor but lacks compassion.:lol:


Well I can't blame you for making the wrong choices. I can only tell you the truth.

If you refruse to acknowledge the truth however you will have to pay the consequences. I'm trying to help youavoid that, but ultimately its up to you to save yourself.

In any event, I am glad I have been able to make your day a little brighther with humor if such is the most I have been able to do and I will pray for your well being. =)

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736880 -

Paleocon said:
So you think its right to murder people in order to save a cow? Because if you think it's wrong then *ding* you are arguing that their moral code is less legitimate then your own.


Nice dodge. That would only be true if they thought murdering people was ok. And how can any moral code be more legitimate than another if they are all based on intuition, which we all share?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736887 -

Silversoul said:
Paleocon said:
So you think its right to murder people in order to save a cow? Because if you think it's wrong then *ding* you are arguing that their moral code is less legitimate then your own.


Nice dodge. That would only be true if they thought murdering people was ok.


It's not murder in the first place. Like I said before, God had his reasons. What you are talking about occurred thousands of years ago, and we have no details as to what was happenning. Simply saying it was murder makes a lot of assumptions.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736889 -

I can only tell you the truth.


:rofl2: You aught to be on stage dude. That's rich.:thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736896 -

Paleocon said:
No. The law against murder is the same, the only difference is that human beings and their situation have changed. Like I said--some of those pagan countries were committing crimes like infant sacrifices, and legally sanctioned rape. Those were probably the reason why God ordered so many people killed.


So every fortune teller was killing babies? I fail to see your logic(mainly because you have none). Either God says you must kill fortune tellers or he doesn't. If he says it at one point and it no longer applies, that means he changed his mind.


Quote:
Now at days such practices are not legal, so God has no reason to order killings like he did before.


I see. So the laws of man trump the laws of God. Nice show of faith.

Quote:
The standards have remained the same-God's specific orders given to specific people in specific times are different.


And if God's orders change, then that means God has changed his mind.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736903 -

Paleocon said:
Silversoul said:
Paleocon said:
So you think its right to murder people in order to save a cow? Because if you think it's wrong then *ding* you are arguing that their moral code is less legitimate then your own.


Nice dodge. That would only be true if they thought murdering people was ok.


It's not murder in the first place. Like I said before, God had his reasons. What you are talking about occurred thousands of years ago, and we have no details as to what was happenning. Simply saying it was murder makes a lot of assumptions.


What the hell does this have to do with what I said?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736909 -

I'm wondering here if Fivepointer and Johnathan206 had illegitimate sex and someone is the result of that unholy union.

Just thinking out loud.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736916 -

Icelander said:
I can only tell you the truth.


:rofl2: You aught to be on stage dude. That's rich.:thumbup:


rofl I know. I am just that good. =)

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736942 -

Silversoul said:
Paleocon said:
No. The law against murder is the same, the only difference is that human beings and their situation have changed. Like I said--some of those pagan countries were committing crimes like infant sacrifices, and legally sanctioned rape. Those were probably the reason why God ordered so many people killed.


So every fortune teller was killing babies?


Maybe, maybe not. Likely the society as a whole was engaged in something extremely barbaric. Indidvidually they probably didn't kill babies, but as a community they probably gathered around to watch ritualized executions or legally sanctioned atrocities. It is similiar to how Muslims will watch public beheadings now at days.


Quote:
Silversoul said:Either God says you must kill fortune tellers or he doesn't.


No God says murder is wrong no matter what. Whether or not he orders people to do anything about it is what is different.

Under the old covenant God judged us by deeds and considered the Israelis his people. Under the New covenant God only asks us to have faith, and considers all who accept Him his people.

The difference is not in legislation but in execution.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736957 -



No God says murder is wrong no matter what. Whether or not he orders people to do anything about it is what is different.



And how does one know when God orders them to kill another?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7736965 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
No God says murder is wrong no matter what. Whether or not he orders people to do anything about it is what is different.



And how does one know when God orders them to kill another?


Well now at days you simply have to look at His words. The NT says we should be passive--turn the other cheek. So obviously killing is out of the question. At least God isn't ordering it.

If your government orders it that is different however. Give Ceasar's things to Ceasar.

Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 02:42 PM)

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736971 -

Quote:
No God says murder is wrong no matter what.


Either killing a fortune teller is murder or it is not. If what God commands is not murder then it is not murder to kill a fortune teller. If it is murder, then God commands us to murder a fortune teller. Whether or not you call it murder, the fact is that God commands that these people be killed. If God once saw it fit to have them killed, but no longer feels that way, then it means God has changed his mind. For someone who argues the consistency of morality, you certainly seem to be very inconsistent with your reasoning.

Quote:
Under the New covenant God only asks us to have faith, and considers all of manking his.


I see. So since God demands faith and not morality, then he cannot be considered the source of morality.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736973 -

There are many religious texts. How does one know which came from the Source?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7736979 -

OrgoneConclusion said:
There are many religious texts. How does one know which came from the Source?


Intuition, of course. And if someone doesn't follow the Bible, they are denying God's intuition which he has given them, since we all have the same intuition.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736984 -

Silversoul said:
[Either killing a fortune teller is murder or it is not.


"Either killing a person is murder or it is not"--false. If you kill a known serial killer it is not murder even by secular definitions.


Quote:
Silversoul said:I see. So since God demands faith and not morality, then he cannot be considered the source of morality.


God demands both because being moral is part of having true faith.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736990 -

Our "morality" simply comes from the social contract that members of a society form. I love my family, and you loves yours. I'll agree not to murder your family, if agree not to murder mine. Those who do not wish to adhere to this contract must be punished to secure the interests of those who do. Your hypothetical situation "What if there was someone who *didn't* care about his family is a pointless one, because the reality is that the vast majority of people do care about their families. They do so because of the evolutionary advantage of the family group (but WHY we love our families really has nothing to do with the argument about God and morality).

You think that Absolute morality came from God, and not the other way around? I'll bet you the gods that cannibals pray to are fine with the consumption of human flesh.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736993 -

Paleocon said:
Silversoul said:
[Either killing a fortune teller is murder or it is not.


"Either killing a person is murder or it is not"--false. If you kill a known serial killer it is not murder even by secular definitions.


Why must you twist my words?

The Bible says to kill fortune tellers. If it's not murder to do so, then fine. It's not murder. But it's still commanded by God. Therefore, it is your moral obligation to kill fortune tellers.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7737018 -

Therefore, it is your moral obligation to kill fortune tellers.


Silversoul you will bear the responsibility when this zealot goes out and commits mayhem.:nono:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7737038 -

Icelander said:
Therefore, it is your moral obligation to kill fortune tellers.


Silversoul you will bear the responsibility when this zealot goes out and commits mayhem.:nono:


Sorry.  I just really hate Ms. Cleo. :crazy:


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