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OfflinePaleocon
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Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality
    #7735909 - 12/09/07 09:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You need to have faith in a Higher Being to justify morality. Why? Because otherwise why choose to be moral?

Throughout life we can choose to be anything we want. If someone pulls a gun on me, and demands my money or my life-I can choose to comply, to do a dance, to fight back, etc.

Likewise, I can to an extent choose why kind of person I am, and what kind of values I adhere to. I can choose to be a religious person or a hedonistic person. I can choose to be a person who values their family, or a person who only cares about themselves.

Likewise I can choose to be a moral person, or an immoral person. But what exactly decides morality?

Does choice alone decide morality? Now that wouldn't make much sense. For that would be circular. I mean, I could choose to have murder moral or immoral-as pro-choicers tend to do. Or I can choose to have stealing be moral (as socialists/communists believe) or immoral (as capitalists and libertarians believe). But that is definately absurd. How can murder be moral and immoral at the same time? And does anyone intuitively agree with the claim that murder is moral?

The fact is choice is infinite, but morality is definite. So to have morality, there must be something outside of choice. Outside of consciousness, and mere subjectivity, and that means a Higher Power. Some conscious will which makes the ultimate choice which we can all choose to either follow or ignore.

That is why I don't believe in secular morality or government, as neither can explain what makes one set of choices true morality, and another set of choices false morality. The only opinion which allows for any functional morality-that which can allow one to definitely say "murder is immoral"-is one based on some sort of divine commandment. Anything else is nothing more then mere nihilism and subjectivism.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7735954 - 12/09/07 10:13 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Frankly, I don't see how avoiding something for fear of divine retribution is any more moral than avoiding it for fear of legal retribution. Morals are fundamentally a function of us being social animals. In order for society to operate, we have to have a certain agreed upon set of rules. Not murdering would be pretty high on that set of priorities, as would stealing. Note that both murder and theft are typically defined in terms of what the individual can do, not the state. Incidentally, Buddhists don't believe in God, and yet I think you'll find Buddhists countries on average have a much lower murder rate than Christian countries.


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7735995 - 12/09/07 10:26 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Frankly, I don't see how avoiding something for fear of divine retribution is any more moral than avoiding it for fear of legal retribution. Morals are fundamentally a function of us being social animals. In order for society to operate, we have to have a certain agreed upon set of rules. Not murdering would be pretty high on that set of priorities, as would stealing. Note that both murder and theft are typically defined in terms of what the individual can do, not the state. Incidentally, Buddhists don't believe in God, and yet I think you'll find Buddhists countries on average have a much lower murder rate than Christian countries.




Buddhists still believe in a Higher Power.

In any event, its not up to you to decide what is real morality or not. That is, like I said, just subjectivism and nihilism. Why can't we just have murder be moral under such a system?

As far as defining morality as social utility-give me a break. If we prove that it is more useful for society to murder the diabled should we do so? Again we are stuck with the problem of moral nihilism, we are only moving the problem to the social level instead of the individual. And what you speak of is collectivism.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736007 - 12/09/07 10:29 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
In any event, its not up to you to decide what is real morality or not.



Decide? No. Use my reasoning skills? Yes, that makes more sense than following a burning bush(or our current Bush).


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736011 - 12/09/07 10:31 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

What's morality? Sounds like an imaginary game to me.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736045 - 12/09/07 10:40 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
In any event, its not up to you to decide what is real morality or not.



Decide? No. Use my reasoning skills? Yes, that makes more sense than following a burning bush(or our current Bush).




And then maybe you can tell me the axiom which shows that murder is immoral. Because if not, then you have to admit logic is morally neutral.

And if logic is morally neutral, that means morality exists outside of reason. Morality exists in the Mind of God.


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #7736051 - 12/09/07 10:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
What's morality? Sounds like an imaginary game to me.




You wouldn't say that if someone raped your sister or murdered your family. I see people like you all the time, people who dismiss morality, the police, and the law. But when something bad happens to them it is truly amazing how quickly they change their story.

Perhaps some people can only learn the hard way-that is by their own experience. But those who are truly wise learn from the experience of others.


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Invisibledemiu5
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736078 - 12/09/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
In any event, its not up to you to decide what is real morality or not. That is, like I said, just subjectivism and nihilism. Why can't we just have murder be moral under such a system?




it is, just look at our and most other militaries


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channel your inner Larry David


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736082 - 12/09/07 10:47 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

And then maybe you can tell me the axiom which shows that murder is immoral.



I already did. See comments re: society and its functions.

Quote:

You wouldn't say that if someone raped your sister or murdered your family.



If that happened, I would have a subjective experience of outrage and unhappiness. The purpose of the rule of law is to prevent such tragedies. That doesn't make it moral or immoral. It's a matter of it being beneficial or harmful.

Your example just goes to show that morality is in the mind of man, not of God(actually, we are God, but that's beyond the grasp religious conservatives like yourself).


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: demiu5]
    #7736115 - 12/09/07 10:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

demius said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
In any event, its not up to you to decide what is real morality or not. That is, like I said, just subjectivism and nihilism. Why can't we just have murder be moral under such a system?




it is, just look at our and most other militaries




No murder happens. That doesn't mean it is moral. Just because something happens does not mean it is right.

If you think otherwise, then you may as well lie down and die the next time you get cancer. Because that is what naturally will happen. If you instead choose to go see a doctor, it is because you don't believe in inevitability, or the idea that something is right just because it is occuring.


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736126 - 12/09/07 11:01 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I already did. See comments re: society and its functions.




Nonsense. Logic is morally neutral because the epistemic and axiological are two totally different things. Again-show me the logical axiom that says murder is immoral.

Put up or shut up.

Quote:

Silversoul said:If that happened, I would have a subjective experience of outrage and unhappiness.




Because deep down you know its wrong. If it is just pure choice, why not just choose to be happy about your sister being raped, or your family being murdered?

I mean why not just define both acts as moral? You cannot actually justify your position without a higher power, and you deep down believe such justification exists.

That is because you expect the law to save you, even though it would be far more convenient for the politician and yourself to simply declare murder/rape "moral" in your head, and focus on acquiring power and profit.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736144 - 12/09/07 11:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Because deep down you know its wrong.



It's because deep down I love my family and those close to me.  You don't seem to mourn the losses of Iraqi families on the other side of the globe.

Quote:

You cannot actually justify your position without a higher power, and you deep down believe such justification exists.



I'm not the one arguing that morality is objective, so of course no higher power is needed for humans to agree to consider certain things moral and certain things immoral.

Quote:

That is because you expect the law to save you, even though it would be far more convenient for the politician and yourself to simply declare murder/rape "moral" in your head, and focus on acquiring power and profit.



Oh please. :rolleyes:

"Moralists" like yourself have been the biggest power-mongers ever.  See: Pat Robertson and Jerry Faldwell.


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736158 - 12/09/07 11:10 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Ok SilverSoul let me ask you a question, why should I pay taxes to enforce a law to protect *your* family? You may love your family, but that doesn't mean I care about your family one bit. And lets pretend I don't care about my family either. Lets say I don't care about murder. Lets say the majority of people don't.

On what grounds can you then argue that we should outlaw murder? You will search in vain for such an answer. Yet you still seem to believe murder is wrong.

So either you acknowledge that there is a higher power, something outside your mere subjecivity, or you are simply a hypocrite with a contradictory point of view.

Or you admit that murder can be moral, in which case we may as well abandon the legal system all together and live in a state where the only laws enforced are to protect those in power. I mean, if I was a politician, and I had the power, and I thought murder can be moral I would just use that power to murder anyone who got in my way. And why shouldn't I?

And you couldn't say I was wrong in any objective sense. Sure you could whine about it, but your whining would have absolutely no legitimacy whatsoever.


Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 11:13 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736188 - 12/09/07 11:18 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Ok SilverSoul let me ask you a question, why should I pay taxes to enforce a law to protect *your* family?



Because the same law protects your family as well. That's how laws work. They're set up for the benefit of society and the individual. If you don't personally care about your family, that's your problem, but most people in society care about their families, and also don't want to be murder victims themselves. Thus, we outlaw murder and pay a special group of people to "serve and protect."

You seem to have the deluded belief that subjectivity means only the beliefs of one person. You don't seem to understand the concept of inter-subjectivity.


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736201 - 12/09/07 11:23 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
Ok SilverSoul let me ask you a question, why should I pay taxes to enforce a law to protect *your* family?



Because the same law protects your family as well. That's how laws work.




Did you not read my post? I'm saying IF I don't care about my family. And lets say nobody else cares either. Then what's your point? Ultimately all you would have to argue is that we all randomly decide that families are valuable-which is moral nihilism-which proves my point.

And why care about your family anyways? Why shoulder that burden or incovenience?
Again all you can do is beg the question.


Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 11:27 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736230 - 12/09/07 11:32 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Did you not read my post?



Did you not read the rest of my post?


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736251 - 12/09/07 11:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Did you not read my post?



Did you not read the rest of my post?




Is copying me all you can do? Try thinking for yourself.

And the fact is I read your post. You never answered my question of how you justify the law. You simply said you'd like it in place, and that if I didn't agree that was "my problem".

That isn't answering my question. How do you ultimately justify your position? I want a straight answer, not an evasion or a personal attack.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736258 - 12/09/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Is copying me all you can do?



I wasn't copying you.  I was pointing out your lack of comprehension.

Quote:

Try thinking for yourself.



:rofl2:  You're too much, man.

I answered your fucking questions.  Apparently you're just being too dense to comprehend my answers.


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Offlinedshroom
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736259 - 12/09/07 11:42 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

discussiing this in terms of secular law makes the point as far as i can see. the secular law against murder comes from where? ten commandments? the laws of man are the same as the laws of god in terms of defining goodness. the trick is to translate these laws into action. the laws are immutable. conversations about the laws are called religion and politics. but the laws of goodness are universal. all one has to do is put them into action and all of the argumants and contention of religion and politics disappear into bliss. ya think?


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736275 - 12/09/07 11:46 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I answered your fucking questions. Apparently you're just being too dense to comprehend my answers.




Umm where? I asked you how you justify a law against murder if you don't choose to care about your family. What was your answer exactly?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: dshroom]
    #7736282 - 12/09/07 11:48 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You know where morality really comes from? Compassion. Which is basically understanding the suffering of your fellow human being and wanting to alleviate that suffering. Compassion doesn't come from some stone tablets given to us by a burning bush, and it doesn't come from fearing that some invisible man is going to send you to eternal torment if you don't do what he says. Someone who lacks compassion and empathy is known as a sociopath, and sociopathy does not seem to be determined by whether or not someone is religious. Compassion is a basic human trait that allows us to have a working society.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736284 - 12/09/07 11:50 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
I answered your fucking questions. Apparently you're just being too dense to comprehend my answers.




Umm where? I asked you how you justify a law against murder if you don't choose to care about your family. What was your answer exactly?



Quote:

If you don't personally care about your family, that's your problem, but most people in society care about their families, and also don't want to be murder victims themselves. Thus, we outlaw murder and pay a special group of people to "serve and protect."




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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736292 - 12/09/07 11:54 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
You know where morality really comes from? Compassion. Which is basically understanding the suffering of your fellow human being and wanting to alleviate that suffering. Compassion doesn't come from some stone tablets given to us by a burning bush, and it doesn't come from fearing that some invisible man is going to send you to eternal torment if you don't do what he says. Someone who lacks compassion and empathy is known as a sociopath, and sociopathy does not seem to be determined by whether or not someone is religious. Compassion is a basic human trait that allows us to have a working society.




But why choose to be compassionate? Again you are only side-stepping the issue.


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736298 - 12/09/07 11:55 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
If you don't personally care about your family, that's your problem, but most people in society care about their families, and also don't want to be murder victims themselves. Thus, we outlaw murder and pay a special group of people to "serve and protect."







That is not justification. You are simply arguing that people care about their family--not if they should or why.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736304 - 12/09/07 11:57 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

But why choose to be compassionate? Again you are only side-stepping the issue.



Because it is in our best interest to do so.

Now how about you address the corollary of this: Why choose to follow God?

Quote:

That is not justification. You are simply arguing that people care about their family--not if they should or why.



Because as social animals, it is our nature to care about those closest to us.


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Offlinedshroom
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736309 - 12/09/07 11:58 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

i think that compassion is a function of morality, not its cause. this has nothing to do with tablets or ideologies but with goodness. regardless of its source i think that kindness and compassion are examples of goodness. practicing kindness and goodness does help it spread but is not its cause. its cause, as far as i can tell is universal in nature and infuses all of reality. what you call it matters not. what you do matters a lot.


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: dshroom]
    #7736318 - 12/09/07 12:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dshroom said:
i think that compassion is a function of morality, not its cause. this has nothing to do with tablets or ideologies but with goodness.




But why choose to be good? The only reason is because you think a divine force would reward or punish you. Otherwise why do it? Why not just choose to believe there is no good or bad, and pursue a life of power, wealth and convenience?

Why should the people in power choose to send their police forces out catching some murderer, instead of simply using their military force to further secure their power, or invade another nation?

If I had power over the police, why should I choose to be good towards you at all?


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OfflineTheCow
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736334 - 12/09/07 12:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Why do wolves travel in packs? Why don't they tear each other apart constantly, is it because they are afraid of God?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736336 - 12/09/07 12:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Morality
A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct




You are incorrect.  Morality need not be defined in terms of a Higher Power, as it is simply an arbitrary, HUMAN system of ideas. 

These ideas have been defined over thousands of years of human interaction, and their primary purpose appears to be maintaining social order and community well-being.  Some groups may use the idea of a God or Higher Power to add "teeth" to their agreed-upon standards of right & wrong, but this is an addition to morality, and not the basis of these standards.

Quote:

But why choose to be good? The only reason is because you think a divine force would reward or punish you.




This is true if you are a sociopath.  Otherwise, you have many reasons to want to be kind and good.  Mentally-healthy humans are empathic, compassionate and develop deep connections with other humans.  This is our motivation for "being good."  Less-healthy humans may choose to be good in order to get what they want from others (you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours), to continue to be allowed to participate in their culture/community, to protect their reputation, etc...etc...

Your ideas simply do not stand up to examination.  :shrug:

You are correct in your claim that individuals can, to an extent, choose their course of action in life.  Some individuals opt to follow the moral standards of their culture/state/country/group, and others opt to ignore these standards.  What does this have to do with God?  Nada.

Morality is a social tool, and nothing more.


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736352 - 12/09/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Morality
A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct




You are incorrect. Morality need not be defined in terms of a Higher Power, as it is simply an arbitrary, HUMAN system of ideas.

These ideas have been defined over thousands of years of human interaction, and their primary purpose appears to be maintaining social order and community well-being.




But who defines order and community well being? A slave-state, like those of empires before were very orderly. And why choose to care about well being?

Again you are not answering my question, only describing what is occuring. Why should I choose to care about social order and community well-being? Why should I define that as moral instead of, as a social darwinist might-a society that enforces survival of the fittest as its moral code?

The Nazis believed that killing the Jews and confiscating their property help maintain social order and their communal well-being. And the South believed the same about enslaving blacks-and if I choose to define my community as simply White Southerners, or White Germans-couldn't I say they were 100% correct?

Perhaps you are simply not understanding what I am saying. If it is all just choice, I can choose to define anything I want as moral--and you have no way to technically refute me.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736353 - 12/09/07 12:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

good question. i am not in fear of punishmanet at all. i receive my reward through blissfulness in the moment. through meditation and huge doses of p cubensis i would say that i have expereinced a well spring of energy that both creates me and flows through me. if i hvae to call it anything i would call it love. an ever deepening fountaion of love. i recognize that most people don't tune into this the way i do, though some do. and i have never met anyone else who does not understand love. nor have i met anyone who can't feel it more. i choose it because the feeling is ecstatic. others choose pain and destruction. i choosde ecstatic love and have no time for the other.

nice to meet you all by the way. i am new here and find lots of topics of interest.


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OfflinePaleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: dshroom]
    #7736358 - 12/09/07 12:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

dshroom said:
good question. i am not in fear of punishmanet at all. i receive my reward through blissfulness in the moment.




I can get far more bliss by using money and power to buy coke and hookers. So even then, murdering and stealing are the rational course of action.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736362 - 12/09/07 12:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

dshroom said:
good question. i am not in fear of punishmanet at all. i receive my reward through blissfulness in the moment.




I can get far more bliss by using money and power to buy coke and hookers. So even then, murdering and stealing are the rational course of action.



Now I see the problem. I've been arguing with a sociopath all along.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736370 - 12/09/07 12:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

If it is all just choice, I can choose to define anything I want as moral--and you have no way to technically refute me.




You may be able to create your own, subjective ideas of what is moral or immoral, but your culture will not necessarily share these ideas.  This STILL does not necessitate the existence/involvement of God or a Higher Power in morality.  :shrug:

Human communities have been establishing rules of conduct throughout human history.  These rules vary by culture, and they are revised over time.  They are not really open to technical refutation, as they are widely known, and it is fairly simple to point to what is considered moral by a particular culture at a given point in time.

Again, how does this require God?

Quote:

The only opinion which allows for any functional morality-that which can allow one to definitely say "murder is immoral"-is one based on some sort of divine commandment. Anything else is nothing more then mere nihilism and subjectivism.




We do not have any "divine commandments," only human claims that such things exist.  Any morality is subjective, but some moralists claim otherwise.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736377 - 12/09/07 12:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

If I assume there is no God, then there is no afterlife and thus I have no fear of retribution of anything I do after I die. Therefore I can either go around killing people or not. These can lead to a few situations, one of which is getting killed myself as I am putting myself in constant danger thus shortening my own life. Or I can kill people and nothing comes of it and I will be happy.

As far as not killing people, this would be because I realize that everyone around me has no other life then the one they are leading. And so I could decide that I do not want to destroy peoples lives. This would be an argument against the Nazi's.

So either you kill people, or you do not, there are reasons for both. However it is to our benefit to get along,this is a logical conclusion that even basic animals have reached. So I do not see where God comes in


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736378 - 12/09/07 12:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

different kind of bliss my friend. did i say that anything is rational in this? i prefer p cubvensis to coke. coke is way bad for the teeth.



Edited by dshroom (12/09/07 12:27 PM)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736405 - 12/09/07 12:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

dshroom said:
good question. i am not in fear of punishmanet at all. i receive my reward through blissfulness in the moment.




I can get far more bliss by using money and power to buy coke and hookers. So even then, murdering and stealing are the rational course of action.



Now I see the problem. I've been arguing with a sociopath all along.




Actually no I do believe in a higher power, which is why I choose to be moral. But I'm saying IF I don't, why not just choose to define murdering the weak as moral and be done with it? That being the case, do you have any way to technically refute me or do you not?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736413 - 12/09/07 12:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:

Human communities have been establishing rules of conduct throughout human history. These rules vary by culture, and they are revised over time. They are not really open to technical refutation, as they are widely known, and it is fairly simple to point to what is considered moral by a particular culture at a given point in time.






Again, why should any culture choose to have a morality at all? Why not just choose to define slavery as moral?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736421 - 12/09/07 12:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
If I assume there is no God, then there is no afterlife and thus I have no fear of retribution of anything I do after I die. Therefore I can either go around killing people or not. These can lead to a few situations, one of which is getting killed myself as I am putting myself in constant danger thus shortening my own life. Or I can kill people and nothing comes of it and I will be happy.





That is just as dictators like those of China and North Korea do. They kill, and nothing comes out of it. And on what basis can you say they are technically wrong?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736429 - 12/09/07 12:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Some cultures DO define slavery as moral, including the U.S. at one point in history.

I've already said that cultures choose to define morality because it promotes social order and community well-being. Individuals voluntarily participate (OR not) in being moral because of the benefits they subjectively assign to continued cultural participation, because of their personal values, because of their emotional connection to other humans, etc...

You may choose to be moral because of your belief that God exists, and that He wants you to be good, but many others do not share your beliefs, and yet still "follow the rules."


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736434 - 12/09/07 12:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I never said any of the possibilities were wrong. I only offered a reason why they exist without the existence of God. So if society wants no slavery, and no killing based off my last reason where I talked about how this is our only life so theres no reason to ruin peoples only life, then that is fine. Or if they do not then that is also fine


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736443 - 12/09/07 12:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Actually no I do believe in a higher power, which is why I choose to be moral. But I'm saying IF I don't, why not just choose to define murdering the weak as moral and be done with it?



Because most people possess some degree of compassion and empathy. If you act morally simply out of fear of the consequences, I would say you are a coward. Compassionate people act morally naturally because they care about others, without fear entering the equation.


--------------------


Edited by Silversoul (12/09/07 12:40 PM)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736452 - 12/09/07 12:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
I never said any of the possibilities were wrong. I only offered a reason why they exist without the existence of God. So if society wants no slavery, and no killing based off my last reason where I talked about how this is our only life so theres no reason to ruin peoples only life, then that is fine. Or if they do not then that is also fine




So you just proved my point, if there is no God, then there is no legitimate morality. There is no reason to choose to murder over not choosing to murder.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736458 - 12/09/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Because most people possess some degree of compassion and empathy.




No, most people choose to be compassionate and empathetic. My question is, why should they?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736459 - 12/09/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Huh? I said that if you believe in no afterlife, you might also believe in the sanctity of life as its the ONLY one. Therefore you might want to not kill anyone, or not incite a culture of murder because it will only shorten YOUR own life


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736462 - 12/09/07 12:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I agree.

Here's some interesting reading on moral development:


Quote:

At stage 1 children think of what is right as that which authority says is right. Doing the right thing is obeying authority and avoiding punishment. At stage 2, children are no longer so impressed by any single authority; they see that there are different sides to any issue. Since everything is relative, one is free to pursue one's own interests, although it is often useful to make deals and exchange favors with others.

At stages 3 and 4, young people think as members of the conventional society with its values, norms, and expectations. At stage 3, they emphasize being a good person, which basically means having helpful motives toward people close to one At stage 4, the concern shifts toward obeying laws to maintain society as a whole.

At stages 5 and 6 people are less concerned with maintaining society for it own sake, and more concerned with the principles and values that make for a good society. At stage 5 they emphasize basic rights and the democratic processes that give everyone a say, and at stage 6 they define the principles by which agreement will be most just.




http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

One of my psych professors stated that, in her opinion, few adults progress past the lower levels of moral development.  :eek:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736463 - 12/09/07 12:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Some cultures DO define slavery as moral, including the U.S. at one point in history.

I've already said that cultures choose to define morality because it promotes social order and community well-being.




But why not simply choose to define terms like "social order" or "community well-being"? How the heck do you define those in the first place?

Either you need an external reference, or you can choose to define social order/communal well-being any way you want.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736470 - 12/09/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Because most people possess some degree of compassion and empathy.




No, most people choose to be compassionate and empathetic. My question is, why should they?



It's not a question of should. They just are, because they are emotionally more developed than other people. It is an adaptation for our survival as a species.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736471 - 12/09/07 12:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Huh? I said that if you believe in no afterlife, you might also believe in the sanctity of life as its the ONLY one.




That makes no sense at all. My life may be the only one, but that doesn't mean I can't take another life. And presuming it is profitable for me to do so...why shouldn't I? Again you have no legitimate way to argue against this.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736473 - 12/09/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Some cultures DO define slavery as moral, including the U.S. at one point in history.

I've already said that cultures choose to define morality because it promotes social order and community well-being.




But why not simply choose to define terms like "social order" or "community well-being"? How the heck do you define those in the first place?

Either you need an external reference, or you can choose to define social order/communal well-being any way you want.



Can you not see how we do the same with the will of God?

Assuming morality does come from God, how am I to know what he wants? Slavery was justified on Biblical grounds, so why don't you own slaves? Theologians seem to argue over what is moral just as much as philosophers do. I don't see any side having any sort of objective point of view here.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736474 - 12/09/07 12:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Because most people possess some degree of compassion and empathy.




No, most people choose to be compassionate and empathetic. My question is, why should they?



It's not a question of should. They just are, because they are emotionally more developed than other people. It is an adaptation for our survival as a species.




That is denying the idea that people choose to be who they are, and that denial would undermine the entire legal system.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736479 - 12/09/07 12:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Once again,I am not talking about good/evil. I am only offering up reasons why people might act in certain ways without invoking Gods name. So once again, why dont you explain to me why wolves travel in groups? The wolf god after them?

Edit: In a previous post I merely said that one could kill or one could not. And I offered up basic results of this with no moral judgement involved


Edited by TheCow (12/09/07 12:46 PM)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736493 - 12/09/07 12:48 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Either you need an external reference, or you can choose to define social order/communal well-being any way you want.





Yes, societies DO choose to define these terms any way they want. The external reference is unnecessary, as these systems of ideas are unique and variable as suits the needs/desires of those who choose to belong to a particular society.

You seem to be asserting (and re-asserting) that morality does not exist without God, but you are ignoring the actual meaning of morality. Just like ANY system of ideas, it will be customized by those who participate in establishing the system.

No, morality is NOT objective. It cannot be firmly established, once and for all, that a particular act is moral or immoral. Societies establish what is moral, and these ideas change as the society changes. Though religious folks often claim that they have the last word on what is right or wrong, religion is just another human-made SYSTEM.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736502 - 12/09/07 12:50 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Either you need an external reference, or you can choose to define social order/communal well-being any way you want.





Yes, societies DO choose to define these terms any way they want. The external reference is unnecessary, as these systems of ideas are unique and variable as suits the needs/desires of those who choose to belong to a particular society.




But they choose to define such things as needs and desires. So again your argument is moot.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736504 - 12/09/07 12:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Once again,I am not talking about good/evil. I am only offering up reasons why people might act in certain ways without invoking Gods name. So once again, why dont you explain to me why wolves travel in groups? The wolf god after them?





Because wolves do not have a soul or free will. They operate 100% mechanically and have no sense of subjecivity. Hence they may display the illusion of feelings and morality, but they do not have either.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736507 - 12/09/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No, it is not. Perhaps you should examine your claims again.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736509 - 12/09/07 12:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Because wolves do not have a soul or free will. They operate 100% mechanically and have no sense of subjecivity. Hence they may display the illusion of feelings and morality, but they do not have either.



Prove that the same isn't true of you.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736513 - 12/09/07 12:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

TheCow said:
Once again,I am not talking about good/evil.  I am only offering up reasons why people might act in certain ways without invoking Gods name.  So once again, why dont you explain to me why wolves travel in groups?  The wolf god after them?





Because wolves do not have a soul or free will. They operate 100% mechanically and have no sense of subjecivity. Hence they may display the illusion of feelings and morality, but they do not have either.




You have no proof that humans have a soul or free will, either.  :shrug:  Nor can you prove that wolves do not.  Humans are animals, just like wolves, and we have adapted in ways which benefit our species.  One of those adaptations is COOPERATION.  It is a selected trait, and our systems of rules help us maintain the benefits of this trait.  Wolves have also adapted to cooperate, as have most mammals.  Their pro-social behaviors have as little to do with God as ours do.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736524 - 12/09/07 12:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Because wolves do not have a soul or free will. They operate 100% mechanically and have no sense of subjecivity. Hence they may display the illusion of feelings and morality, but they do not have either.



Prove that the same isn't true of you.




I don't have to prove anything. It is a matter of faith.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736540 - 12/09/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Wrong forum, buddy.  :rolleyes:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736542 - 12/09/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
No, it is not. Perhaps you should examine your claims again.




Yes it is. I can choose to desire life or death. I can choose to define elecritricity as a need by the community, or I can choose to define food/water alone as the "need" of a community. I can choose to include maximizing military power at any cost--even mass starvation--as a communal need/desire, or I can choose to define securing my people's freedom/happiness as a communal need/desire.

Again, you are stuck with the same problem no matter how far you put it back. Without something outside of your choices, you have no way to argue that one set of morals is more legitimate then another set of morals.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736544 - 12/09/07 01:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
I don't have to prove anything.



Then neither do we, and our discussion has reached a stalemate.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736550 - 12/09/07 01:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

You can carry on this discussion in M&P, the padded walls will do you nicely


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736555 - 12/09/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
I don't have to prove anything.



Then neither do we, and our discussion has reached a stalemate.




No because you haven't established your claims. I noted that your argument from wolves was moot, so you idea that morals exist in nature was disproven.

Again, if I can choose to define morality as anything I want--what makes one moral system more true then another?

Its even true with your wolves. Why choose to define the wolves social behavior as moral?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736556 - 12/09/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Again, you are stuck with the same problem no matter how far you put it back. Without something outside of your choices, you have no way to argue that one set of morals is more legitimate then another set of morals.




I never argued this. Morality is just what groups of humans agree is right or wrong. No God necessary, and lots of variability between groups and over time. It is somewhat arbitrary, though usually reflective of a shared desire to get along & life safely.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736560 - 12/09/07 01:03 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Again, you are stuck with the same problem no matter how far you put it back. Without something outside of your choices, you have no way to argue that one set of morals is more legitimate then another set of morals.




I never argued this. Morality is just what groups of humans agree is right or wrong. No God necessary, and lots of variability between groups and over time. It is somewhat arbitrary, though usually reflective of a shared desire to get along & life safely.




So you are proving my point. Without a higher power, there is no way to establish one moral system over another. Thanks.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736565 - 12/09/07 01:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
No, it is not. Perhaps you should examine your claims again.




I am carefully examining his clams.



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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736580 - 12/09/07 01:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Who said that we had to establish one moral system over another?  :confused:  Morality exists because humans created it.  It changes because humans change it.  God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Buddha, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, etc...have nothing to do with it at all.

You may choose to obey your religion's invented moral code because you believe that God will send you to Hell if you don't.  Fine.  Someone else may believe that the Easter Bunny won't bring them chocolate eggs unless they keep Easter in their heart all year long.  Whatever.

God is not needed for morality because morality is a human invention, just like toasters or underwater cameras.  :shrug:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736605 - 12/09/07 01:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Who said that we had to establish one moral system over another?




Well I don't know. Personally I find the idea that murder is wrong intuitively true, and if anyone's beliefs leads me to think otherwise I see it as more legitimate to question their beliefs--over the idea that a pro-murder side is just as legitimate over an anti-murder side. Perhaps that is just me.

Also your standard entails that there is no way to make a functional society. Your standard would allow any action to be legitimate--murder, rape, theft, etc. So your standard is really no standard at all.

That proves my point, 100%, that without a higher power you have no higher moral standard.


Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 01:13 PM)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736608 - 12/09/07 01:13 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

For him God is real.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

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With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736610 - 12/09/07 01:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I used to steal until the advent of Jacque Costeau' great invention. :yesnod:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736612 - 12/09/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)


That proves my point, 100%, that without a higher power you have no higher moral standard.


Yeah, he's not listening 100%. So there.


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736615 - 12/09/07 01:15 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
For him God is real.:monkeydance:




According to you. Nevermind that your standard is contradictory. I mean, if you can say God is real only for me--I can say God is real for everyone. And who is to say who is right or wrong?

In other words-your statement doesn't make any sense. You may as well have written "JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" for all your efforts.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736618 - 12/09/07 01:16 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It is not MY standard, it is the definition of morality.  Religious morals are not the only game in town.  :shrug: 

If you take the time to read over the article I linked to, you might learn a few other ways we might establish a mutually-beneficial system of morality.  The Ten Commandments simply don't work for all of us, sir.

Morality based upon fear of punishment is the FIRST level of moral development...meaning the very LEAST humans are capable of.  I think we can do better.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736629 - 12/09/07 01:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
It is not MY standard, it is the definition of morality.




No its the definition of morality you choose to adhere to. I'm willing to bet I can find a contradictory definition from another source.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736632 - 12/09/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

That proves my point, 100%, that without a higher power you have no higher moral standard.


Yeah, he's not listening 100%. So there.




LOL. Just because I don't agree with you means I'm not listening now? How convenient.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736634 - 12/09/07 01:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

As long as it is a dictionary, and not a religious text, I'm fine with discussing other definitions.  The word means what it means, no matter what the Bible says about it.  :shrug:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736639 - 12/09/07 01:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

It is because we have addressed your points and you do not counter them with new arguments, you just restate your old ones. Debating is not like your religious notion of sex, you have to actually respond to the other person


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736645 - 12/09/07 01:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
As long as it is a dictionary, and not a religious text, I'm fine with discussing other definitions.




And someone chose to put it in the dictionary. What makes that person's choice more legitimate then mine or the Bible's?

It sounds like you are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to say your definition is more legitimate, while refusing to acknowledge an objective reference point.

Again you literally aren't making any sense. And your conclusion that murder can be moral follows as an absurd consequence of your flawed premise.

Either you acknowledge an objective reference point, or you can't say I am wrong no matter what.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736667 - 12/09/07 01:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
It is because we have addressed your points and you do not counter them with new arguments,




You have addressed my points in the sense that you typed down words. You have no addressed my points in the sense that you justified your claims over mine.

Which is sort of the point of my argument. Unless you have an objective point of reference you have no way of justifying a point of view--even as absurd as saying "murder and rape are moral" over an obviously true statement, like "murder is wrong".

Hence your standards and belief systems are 100% irrational and hence worthless.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736671 - 12/09/07 01:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The dictionary lists the meanings of words which we, as English-speaking humans, have agreed-upon.  It does not contain MY definitions, nor YOUR definitions, nor the Bible's definitions, but the generally agreed-upon definitions of each word. 

Just like morality, the meanings of words are culturally-specific, may change over time, and are established to improve our ability to get along and cooperate.  It is legitimate because the majority agrees that it is.

I never concluded that murder was moral, I stated that viewing ANY act as either moral or immoral was culturally-specific and changeable.

There is no objective reference point, merely subjective reference points which are shared by the most people.  Consensus reality, consensus definitions of words, consensus morality.

And, once again, God has nothing to do with it.  A Higher Power is an unnecessary elaboration upon the subject, though you may choose to believe whatever entertains you. :shrug:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736675 - 12/09/07 01:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Yet in the end God cannot be proved and there is no logical basis for him, so in the end you make a mockery of yourself by believing in morals thought up by humans :shrug:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736678 - 12/09/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Personally I find the idea that murder is wrong intuitively true



And yet you support the bloodshed in Iraq, and as far as I can tell, every war the US has ever fought. So clearly you're willing to make exceptions to this.

Quote:

Also your standard entails that there is no way to make a functional society. Your standard would allow any action to be legitimate--murder, rape, theft, etc. So your standard is really no standard at all.



In the Bible, God sanctions murder numerous times:

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

So where exactly does this sanction against murder come from?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736681 - 12/09/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
For him God is real.:monkeydance:




According to you. Nevermind that your standard is contradictory. I mean, if you can say God is real only for me--I can say God is real for everyone. And who is to say who is right or wrong?

In other words-your statement doesn't make any sense. You may as well have written "JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" for all your efforts.




"JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" That's exactly what I said. Quit repeating everything I say dude.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736692 - 12/09/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
The dictionary lists the meanings of words which we, as English-speaking humans, have agreed-upon.




I never agreed to it. And obviously others with a different definition of morality never agreed to it. So what's your point?

Again you are simply admitting that without an objective reference point morality can be 100% made up. And that point of view is absurd. You don't even believe it yourself.

Like I said, if someone murdered your family you wouldn't just say "well in my opinion that was wrong, but in his opinion that was right and we should respect eachother's choices". You'd want the person arrested, because deep down you know that murder is objectively wrong whether you admit it or not.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736695 - 12/09/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Your half right, Id be angry and probably kill the guy but thats got nothing to do with any objectively wrong business


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736699 - 12/09/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Yet in the end God cannot be proved and there is no logical basis for him, so in the end you make a mockery of yourself by believing in morals thought up by humans




No I believe in an objective morality. And that is proven like any other claim--by intuition. Tell me one claim that ultimately isn't proven by intuition? You will search in vain.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736705 - 12/09/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
In the Bible, God sanctions murder numerous times:

"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)

While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

So where exactly does this sanction against murder come from?




It's not murder by definition because God sanctions it. He probably had reasons to do so which we cannot comprehend.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736710 - 12/09/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

No I believe in an objective morality. And that is proven like any other claim--by intuition

:rofl2::monkeydance: That's a good one. Did you go to high school in Kentucky?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736713 - 12/09/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
For him God is real.:monkeydance:




According to you. Nevermind that your standard is contradictory. I mean, if you can say God is real only for me--I can say God is real for everyone. And who is to say who is right or wrong?

In other words-your statement doesn't make any sense. You may as well have written "JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" for all your efforts.




"JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" That's exactly what I said.




"2+2=5. Freedom is slavery. Squares have three sides." Whatever.

All you are proving is just how irrational you are, and the fact that whenever your point of view is questioned you are going to act crazy. And you are right--it's pretty hard to argue with someone who is crazy.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736721 - 12/09/07 01:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

And you are right--it's pretty hard to argue with someone who is crazy.

There you heard it everyone. I win. He loses. Too bad.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736724 - 12/09/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
That's a good one. Did you go to high school in Kentucky?




What is math proven by? Axioms--and how do we know axioms are true? Intuition.

What is logic proven by? Axioms. And how do we come to know axioms? Intuition.

All evidence is ultimately intuition and/or sense experience.

Without intuition you have no way to prove one claim over another.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736725 - 12/09/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
No I believe in an objective morality. And that is proven like any other claim--by intuition. Tell me one claim that ultimately isn't proven by intuition? You will search in vain.



So then, it is intuition, not God, which is the source of morality. Glad you agree.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736732 - 12/09/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
It's not murder by definition because God sanctions it. He probably had reasons to do so which we cannot comprehend.



Then why not be consistent with your faith and kill the next fortune teller you see? Why is Ms. Cleo still alive?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736733 - 12/09/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
There you heard it everyone. I win. He loses. Too bad.:monkeydance:




You just keep telling yourself that. Nevermind that my point of view is completely consistent and logical, whereas you have reduced yourself to square-circles.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736737 - 12/09/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
It's not murder by definition because God sanctions it. He probably had reasons to do so which we cannot comprehend.



Then why not be consistent with your faith and kill the next fortune teller you see?




Because god is not directly ordering me to. Remember Jesus created a new covenant.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736740 - 12/09/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

All evidence is ultimately intuition

Guess what my intuition tells me about you?


--------------------
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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736744 - 12/09/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Because god is not directly ordering me to. Remember Jesus created a new covenant.



I see. So God changes his mind, and therefore morality is not consistent and objective.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736753 - 12/09/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
No I believe in an objective morality. And that is proven like any other claim--by intuition. Tell me one claim that ultimately isn't proven by intuition? You will search in vain.



So then, it is intuition, not God, which is the source of morality. Glad you agree.




No intuition is how we know right and wrong, but God determines our intuition, and provides the justification for doing what is right.

Without God we can just choose to ignore our intuitive sense of right and/or wrong, and it wouldn't matter.

Also a person's intuition is determined by their genes and environment.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736758 - 12/09/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I see. So God changes his mind, and therefore morality is not consistent and objective.




No, God does not change his mind. Murder by definition is unlawful killing, and God determines the law.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736761 - 12/09/07 01:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
No intuition is how we know right and wrong, but God determines our intuition, and provides the justification for doing what is right.



So then God determined Hitler's intuition that Jews were evil and needed to be exterminated.  Lovely. :cheers:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736769 - 12/09/07 01:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
No, God does not change his mind.



Then the term "new covenant" is meaningless, and you are a sinner for not killing Ms. Cleo.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736771 - 12/09/07 01:55 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
All evidence is ultimately intuition

Guess what my intuition tells me about you?




Obviously you are angry at me because I questioned your belief system and showed your arguments to be lacking.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736774 - 12/09/07 01:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
No intuition is how we know right and wrong, but God determines our intuition, and provides the justification for doing what is right.



So then God determined Hitler's intuition that Jews were evil and needed to be exterminated.




No Hitler chose to ignore his God-given intuition.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736777 - 12/09/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
No, God does not change his mind.



Then the term "new covenant" is meaningless, and you are a sinner for not killing Ms. Cleo.




Show me anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus asks us to kill fortune tellers.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736778 - 12/09/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
God determines our intuition



Then I guess hes really down with giving people an intuition to rape little boys.  Mmmmm little boys, thank you god :yummy:
Edit: damn you beat me to it


Edited by TheCow (12/09/07 01:57 PM)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736780 - 12/09/07 01:57 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
No Hitler chose to ignore his God-given intuition.



I see. So you are psychic and therefore can determine what Hitler's intuition told him. I think the Bible's injunctions now justify killing you.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736787 - 12/09/07 02:00 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Show me anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus asks us to kill fortune tellers.



It says so in the Old Testament, and thus we are left with 3 options:

1. The Old Testament is a lie, and it was never permitted to kill fortune tellers.
2. There is no "New Covenant" which overrides Mosaic Law.
3. God changed his mind and decided to create a new set of laws.

So which is it?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736792 - 12/09/07 02:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
God determines our intuition



Then I guess hes really down with giving people an intuition to rape little boys.




No, he gives people moral intuitions. Like I said they can choose to ignore them.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736798 - 12/09/07 02:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
Show me anywhere in the New Testament where Jesus asks us to kill fortune tellers.



It says so in the Old Testament, and thus we are left with 3 options:

1. The Old Testament is a lie, and it was never permitted to kill fortune tellers.
2. There is no "New Covenant" which overrides Mosaic Law.





What? That doesn't make any sense. Because it says so in the OD now means we don't get a new covenant in the NT? How come?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736807 - 12/09/07 02:04 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Why did you leave out the third option? Why must you be so disingenuous? Does your God condone such dishonest behavior?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736809 - 12/09/07 02:05 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
No Hitler chose to ignore his God-given intuition.



I see. So you are psychic and therefore can determine what Hitler's intuition told him.




You just said Hitler's intuition told him to kill Jews. Now you are arguing that we can't know it. Please, at least try to be consistent.

The fact is I know people have a moral sense because we can choose to be any way we want and we are all the same with respect to our intuitions. Why would we be any different?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736825 - 12/09/07 02:07 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Why did you leave out the third option? Why must you be so disingenuous? Does your God condone such dishonest behavior?




Because the second option didn't make any sense, and the third option has already been dealt with in this thread.

God is not changing his mind on murder, only how to enforce his will. God sanction killing is not murder by definition. In both cases then murder is wrong, it's whether or not God asks you to kill that differs.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736827 - 12/09/07 02:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Please, at least try to be consistent.



:lol:  This is pure gold coming from you.

Quote:

The fact is I know people have a moral sense because we can choose to be any way we want and we are all the same with respect to our intuitions. Why would we be any different?



I don't know.  Try going to India and eating steak.  See how people react, with their God-given intuition that cows are sacred.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736831 - 12/09/07 02:09 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
All evidence is ultimately intuition

Guess what my intuition tells me about you?




Obviously you are angry at me because I questioned your belief system and showed your arguments to be lacking.




No not quite. You make me laugh because you're entertaining and I have never stated my belief system. You may try again if you would like.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736835 - 12/09/07 02:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
it's whether or not God asks you to kill that differs.



And therefore God has changed his mind.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736836 - 12/09/07 02:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

:lol: This is pure gold coming from you.

Thank god for the fundumbmentalists. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736841 - 12/09/07 02:11 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I wish they were a little more "fun" and a little less "mental."


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736852 - 12/09/07 02:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
I don't know. Try going to India and eating steak. See how people react, with their God-given intuition that cows are sacred.




So you think its right to murder people in order to save a cow? Because if you think it's wrong then *ding* you are arguing that their moral code is less legitimate then your own.


Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 02:15 PM)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736866 - 12/09/07 02:17 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I just can't get mad at the little buggers anymore. Posting with them has helped me work that out. I now just try to have some fun with them and spread the joy. Besides, they're terrified and so cannot help being the way they are.Their god just made them a little bit dysfunctional because he has a sense of humor but lacks compassion.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/09/07 02:17 PM)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736871 - 12/09/07 02:18 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
it's whether or not God asks you to kill that differs.



And therefore God has changed his mind.




No. The law against murder is the same, the only difference is that human beings and their situation have changed. Like I said--some of those pagan countries were committing crimes like infant sacrifices, and legally sanctioned rape. Those were probably the reason why God ordered so many people killed.

Now at days such practices are not legal, so God has no reason to order killings like he did before.

The standards have remained the same-God's specific orders given to specific people in specific times are different.

Hence God has remained constant, it is only the secular world that has changed.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736879 - 12/09/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I just can't get mad at the little buggers anymore. Posting with them has helped me work that out. I now just try to have some fun with them and spread the joy. Besides, they're terrified and so cannot help being the way they are.Their god just made them a little bit dysfunctional because he has a sense of humor but lacks compassion.:lol:




Well I can't blame you for making the wrong choices. I can only tell you the truth.

If you refruse to acknowledge the truth however you will have to pay the consequences. I'm trying to help youavoid that, but ultimately its up to you to save yourself.

In any event, I am glad I have been able to make your day a little brighther with humor if such is the most I have been able to do and I will pray for your well being. =)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736880 - 12/09/07 02:21 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
So you think its right to murder people in order to save a cow? Because if you think it's wrong then *ding* you are arguing that their moral code is less legitimate then your own.



Nice dodge. That would only be true if they thought murdering people was ok. And how can any moral code be more legitimate than another if they are all based on intuition, which we all share?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736887 - 12/09/07 02:23 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
So you think its right to murder people in order to save a cow? Because if you think it's wrong then *ding* you are arguing that their moral code is less legitimate then your own.



Nice dodge. That would only be true if they thought murdering people was ok.




It's not murder in the first place. Like I said before, God had his reasons. What you are talking about occurred thousands of years ago, and we have no details as to what was happenning. Simply saying it was murder makes a lot of assumptions.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736889 - 12/09/07 02:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I can only tell you the truth.


:rofl2: You aught to be on stage dude. That's rich.:thumbup:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736896 - 12/09/07 02:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
No. The law against murder is the same, the only difference is that human beings and their situation have changed. Like I said--some of those pagan countries were committing crimes like infant sacrifices, and legally sanctioned rape. Those were probably the reason why God ordered so many people killed.



So every fortune teller was killing babies? I fail to see your logic(mainly because you have none). Either God says you must kill fortune tellers or he doesn't. If he says it at one point and it no longer applies, that means he changed his mind.


Quote:

Now at days such practices are not legal, so God has no reason to order killings like he did before.



I see. So the laws of man trump the laws of God. Nice show of faith.

Quote:

The standards have remained the same-God's specific orders given to specific people in specific times are different.



And if God's orders change, then that means God has changed his mind.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736903 - 12/09/07 02:27 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
So you think its right to murder people in order to save a cow? Because if you think it's wrong then *ding* you are arguing that their moral code is less legitimate then your own.



Nice dodge. That would only be true if they thought murdering people was ok.




It's not murder in the first place. Like I said before, God had his reasons. What you are talking about occurred thousands of years ago, and we have no details as to what was happenning. Simply saying it was murder makes a lot of assumptions.



What the hell does this have to do with what I said?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736909 - 12/09/07 02:28 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I'm wondering here if Fivepointer and Johnathan206 had illegitimate sex and someone is the result of that unholy union.

Just thinking out loud.


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736916 - 12/09/07 02:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I can only tell you the truth.


:rofl2: You aught to be on stage dude. That's rich.:thumbup:




rofl I know. I am just that good. =)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736942 - 12/09/07 02:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Paleocon said:
No. The law against murder is the same, the only difference is that human beings and their situation have changed. Like I said--some of those pagan countries were committing crimes like infant sacrifices, and legally sanctioned rape. Those were probably the reason why God ordered so many people killed.



So every fortune teller was killing babies?




Maybe, maybe not. Likely the society as a whole was engaged in something extremely barbaric. Indidvidually they probably didn't kill babies, but as a community they probably gathered around to watch ritualized executions or legally sanctioned atrocities. It is similiar to how Muslims will watch public beheadings now at days.


Quote:

Silversoul said:Either God says you must kill fortune tellers or he doesn't.




No God says murder is wrong no matter what. Whether or not he orders people to do anything about it is what is different.

Under the old covenant God judged us by deeds and considered the Israelis his people. Under the New covenant God only asks us to have faith, and considers all who accept Him his people.

The difference is not in legislation but in execution.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736957 - 12/09/07 02:38 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)




No God says murder is wrong no matter what. Whether or not he orders people to do anything about it is what is different.





And how does one know when God orders them to kill another?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7736965 - 12/09/07 02:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:



No God says murder is wrong no matter what. Whether or not he orders people to do anything about it is what is different.





And how does one know when God orders them to kill another?




Well now at days you simply have to look at His words. The NT says we should be passive--turn the other cheek. So obviously killing is out of the question. At least God isn't ordering it.

If your government orders it that is different however. Give Ceasar's things to Ceasar.


Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 02:42 PM)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736971 - 12/09/07 02:42 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

No God says murder is wrong no matter what.



Either killing a fortune teller is murder or it is not. If what God commands is not murder then it is not murder to kill a fortune teller. If it is murder, then God commands us to murder a fortune teller. Whether or not you call it murder, the fact is that God commands that these people be killed. If God once saw it fit to have them killed, but no longer feels that way, then it means God has changed his mind. For someone who argues the consistency of morality, you certainly seem to be very inconsistent with your reasoning.

Quote:

Under the New covenant God only asks us to have faith, and considers all of manking his.



I see. So since God demands faith and not morality, then he cannot be considered the source of morality.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736973 - 12/09/07 02:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

There are many religious texts. How does one know which came from the Source?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7736979 - 12/09/07 02:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
There are many religious texts. How does one know which came from the Source?



Intuition, of course. And if someone doesn't follow the Bible, they are denying God's intuition which he has given them, since we all have the same intuition.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736984 - 12/09/07 02:46 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
[Either killing a fortune teller is murder or it is not.




"Either killing a person is murder or it is not"--false. If you kill a known serial killer it is not murder even by secular definitions.


Quote:

Silversoul said:I see. So since God demands faith and not morality, then he cannot be considered the source of morality.




God demands both because being moral is part of having true faith.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736990 - 12/09/07 02:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Our "morality" simply comes from the social contract that members of a society form. I love my family, and you loves yours. I'll agree not to murder your family, if agree not to murder mine. Those who do not wish to adhere to this contract must be punished to secure the interests of those who do. Your hypothetical situation "What if there was someone who *didn't* care about his family is a pointless one, because the reality is that the vast majority of people do care about their families. They do so because of the evolutionary advantage of the family group (but WHY we love our families really has nothing to do with the argument about God and morality).

You think that Absolute morality came from God, and not the other way around? I'll bet you the gods that cannibals pray to are fine with the consumption of human flesh.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736993 - 12/09/07 02:49 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
[Either killing a fortune teller is murder or it is not.




"Either killing a person is murder or it is not"--false. If you kill a known serial killer it is not murder even by secular definitions.



Why must you twist my words?

The Bible says to kill fortune tellers. If it's not murder to do so, then fine. It's not murder. But it's still commanded by God. Therefore, it is your moral obligation to kill fortune tellers.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7737018 - 12/09/07 02:56 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Therefore, it is your moral obligation to kill fortune tellers.


Silversoul you will bear the responsibility when this zealot goes out and commits mayhem.:nono:


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" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7737038 - 12/09/07 03:01 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Therefore, it is your moral obligation to kill fortune tellers.


Silversoul you will bear the responsibility when this zealot goes out and commits mayhem.:nono:



Sorry.  I just really hate Ms. Cleo. :crazy:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7737062 - 12/09/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Just out of curiosity, where does it say that?


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7737068 - 12/09/07 03:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

TheCow said:
Just out of curiosity, where does it say that?




A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7737084 - 12/09/07 03:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

ha thats funny


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7737117 - 12/09/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Then all the mystics and sages shall be stoned!!! And even Jesus himself!! However, Jesus is the son of God, so its ok that he does these "super"natural things. I mean....c'mon...the son...c'mon...  :brucelee:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MokshaIs]
    #7737121 - 12/09/07 03:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MokshaIs said:
Then all the mystics and sages shall be stoned!!!



Amen.  :bongload:  :bigweed:  :gethigh:  :bouncysmoke:  :potleaf:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7737661 - 12/09/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

The only morality is practiced morality.
Whether its induced by chance/chaos/genetic permutations, psychological device called god/his commands/feelings/greaterplan, greater FORCES (somehow a quantification of force magnitude needs to be applied, and a heirarchy (which includes the lowly grade algae symbolic representation, and "man" representation, in all his manicity. that must be influenced by this large force)
If it was caused by a survival reflex incited by threats to the creatures soul upon deviation from moral structure, just doesn't change what actually happens, which is the behaviour, the movement and the property of a soul/experience/anything spiritually tangible, bojangle frample frample.
Now when a measurement of mind is related bi-partite with a recursive signature 9, without any referencial model to reciprocate the dynamic fluctuation of the central and investable body of man, there is only a byproduct of faith.
Now cant we all agree with that?


--------------------



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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7738536 - 12/09/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
You need to have faith in a Higher Being to justify morality. Why? Because otherwise why choose to be moral?




Your entire point is moot because you assume people have a choice. I think you would have a hard time refuting that, statistically, people who believe in a higher power do not behave any differently than those that do not. If you want to understand why people behave the way they do, then I would suggest studying behavioral and evolutionary psychology.

All morality needs a foundation - an assumption to base itself on - including Biblical morality. You cannot attack secular morality on the grounds that it is baseless without also attacking your own morality, which is just as baseless. You relativist scumbag!


Edited by MushmanTheManic (12/09/07 10:10 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7738553 - 12/09/07 10:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
Quote:

Veritas said:

Human communities have been establishing rules of conduct throughout human history. These rules vary by culture, and they are revised over time. They are not really open to technical refutation, as they are widely known, and it is fairly simple to point to what is considered moral by a particular culture at a given point in time.






Again, why should any culture choose to have a morality at all? Why not just choose to define slavery as moral?




The Bible clearly considers slavery to be moral.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7738589 - 12/09/07 10:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

(Unless you beat your slave so hard that he loses an eye. Then you must release him.)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7738621 - 12/09/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Paleocon said:
No God says murder is wrong no matter what.




Does God defy his own morality?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 45,414
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #7738738 - 12/09/07 10:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
(Unless you beat your slave so hard that he loses an eye. Then you must release him.)




I only beat mine until they require LASIK surgery.


--------------------


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OfflineDieck
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #7739134 - 12/10/07 03:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I haven't read this full thread but it appears its still being argued over. The reason I'm a highly "moral" atheist, or I'd prefer the term ethical because moral includes nonsense things like blasphemy, is because I treat others the way I would like to be treated. We are social animals, if someone is a douchebag, other people wont like them or someone will put them in their place, which in the end is against their personal interests being fulfilled. in a natural environment, being ethical is in human nature, ultimately helping us survive by being part of a community which we will be helped in our time of need and we help others when they need it. and the reason we're not suppose to be able to go and slaughter our neighbor for their land and possessions is because theres this other drive called revenge, also being counter-productive to ones survival.. How can you be so selfish that you aren't able to empathize without being scared of hell?


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Dieck]
    #7739293 - 12/10/07 05:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Treat other the way you want to be treated is merely a reflection of your own fears and frustrations. Very similar to those parents who never got to fulfill their dream and now they're riding their children's ass to make things in such a way that they get to do what their parent never accomplished. So this way they hope for some sort of relief by living their dream through their children. This is so pathetic! And what's more, is that this kind of people (parents) are so delusional and are so full of shit, that they begin to truly believe that they're doing the "right" thing for their children. :crazy: How fucked up is that? :smirk:

The same thing goes with those who think that morality really exist, and more to that, that it is sustained by an all mighty god.
In my opinion, only a sorry ass can be so deluded to actually think that they should act with morality, and in the same time (their hidden purpose being) hoping that the others will take notes of their good actions and treat them the same.
Well kid, it doesn't work this way, and life is constantly proving us that what we like others don't and vice versa. Hence one could easily conclude (if determined to reason) that morality is only an illusion, a symbol for our own frustrations and senilities. :evil:
Why would anyone empathize with those who feel scared of hell? Who said that this is the way to go?
Will we ever grow the fuck up and stop being so mentally damaged and offended? I think that when all of us will be able to do that, the world will truly be a better place. :yesnod: :satansmoking:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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OfflineBoundless
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7739685 - 12/10/07 09:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Everyone wants happiness its true.

When we understand this, we do unto others as we would have them do unto us means to give ourselves fully and with love.


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OfflineDieck
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7741592 - 12/10/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MushroomTrip said:
Treat other the way you want to be treated is merely a reflection of your own fears and frustrations. Very similar to those parents who never got to fulfill their dream and now they're riding their children's ass to make things in such a way that they get to do what their parent never accomplished. So this way they hope for some sort of relief by living their dream through their children. This is so pathetic! And what's more, is that this kind of people (parents) are so delusional and are so full of shit, that they begin to truly believe that they're doing the "right" thing for their children. :crazy: How fucked up is that? :smirk:

The same thing goes with those who think that morality really exist, and more to that, that it is sustained by an all mighty god.
In my opinion, only a sorry ass can be so deluded to actually think that they should act with morality, and in the same time (their hidden purpose being) hoping that the others will take notes of their good actions and treat them the same.
Well kid, it doesn't work this way, and life is constantly proving us that what we like others don't and vice versa. Hence one could easily conclude (if determined to reason) that morality is only an illusion, a symbol for our own frustrations and senilities. :evil:
Why would anyone empathize with those who feel scared of hell? Who said that this is the way to go?
Will we ever grow the fuck up and stop being so mentally damaged and offended? I think that when all of us will be able to do that, the world will truly be a better place. :yesnod: :satansmoking:




I'm not really following your logic.. It isn't that people will treat me the same if they see I act justly, what a selfish way of looking at it.. I treat others with respect because they didn't do anything to deserve otherwise. Most would not treat a person such as yourself with respect though for having such a selfish view of relations, which is probably why you are confused about how the human relations work. Only the unsocialized would choose not to act with values.. If every one in a community acts by the golden rule, then there will be few problems, so we act by that and hope others will also. Theres humans drives and emotions, such as guilt, someone taking revenge against you, not being accepted into a community, which can be viewed as acting ethically for selfish reasons. I guarantee every person who doesn't care about what they do to others suffers from a type of depression or anxiety problem. Again I don't believe in God or an afterlife, but I've learned I'm able to meet my real needs much more effectively by treating others they way I'd like to be treated.


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Dieck]
    #7742006 - 12/10/07 06:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

I'm not really following your logic.. It isn't that people will treat me the same if they see I act justly, what a selfish way of looking at it.. I treat others with respect because they didn't do anything to deserve otherwise.




No, no, no! :nono:
Let's review your previous statement and also a part from your new post:

Quote:

The reason I'm a highly "moral" atheist, or I'd prefer the term ethical because moral includes nonsense things like blasphemy, is because I treat others the way I would like to be treated.




Hmmmm, makes me wonder about who's being confused in expressing their ideas here.

Also let's take a look at:

Quote:

If every one in a community acts by the golden rule, then there will be few problems, so we act by that and hope others will also.




This clearly states a form of needing a guarantee that if you don't harm others, other might consider not harming you too. There's it's black on white, typed by your own hand which was driven by your own ideas. :tongue:

Quote:

Most would not treat a person such as yourself with respect though for having such a selfish view of relations, which is probably why you are confused about how the human relations work.




I would suggest that in the future, if you want to keep a meaningful conversation, you will refrain yourself from psychologically analyzing me, and instead focus on the subject that we are discussing. Not to mention that you make only assumption about what I think, since all I did was point out the lack of coherency in your statements.

Quote:

Only the unsocialized would choose not to act with values..




Please define for me "unsocialized".
Too many concepts and ramifications to be able to fully know what you're talking about.
Submitting to a social standard which goes against your own conclusions about life is called hypocrisy and denotes anxiety, not having the honesty to reject that what you feel as being invalid and meaningless.
Making rules for other people to obey them has been proven to fail lamentably. Doesn't it make you wonder? Maybe the entire system in flawed. :strokebeard:

Quote:

If every one in a community acts by the golden rule, then there will be few problems, so we act by that and hope others will also.




What world are you living in? :confused:
Tell me exactly, with examples, where this method has been showing signs of working?
How do you establish which is the most appropriate golden rule to follow?
There are lots of examples of people who choose not to conform to the social standards and somehow they succeed in being the less harmful to those around them.

Quote:

Theres humans drives and emotions, such as guilt, someone taking revenge against you, not being accepted into a community, which can be viewed as acting ethically for selfish reasons.




So does everything else, along with adhering to a social norm.
People do it for selfish reasons such as: they don't want to feel and be treated like outcasts, they feel good when some form of authority pets them on the shoulder for being a good citizen, and other stuff like that. How many of these people are actually convinced that, for example, killing or raping is not the best thing to do?

Quote:

I guarantee every person who doesn't care about what they do to others suffers from a type of depression or anxiety problem.




What do you guarantee with? :smirk:
What's at stake? :strokebeard:

Quote:

Again I don't believe in God or an afterlife, but I've learned I'm able to meet my real needs much more effectively by treating others they way I'd like to be treated.




The key word in this comment is NEEDS.
Needs are selfishness manifested.
The fact that you think that being moral is the right thing to do is because a majority of people share the same form manifestation of selfishness. :lol:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7742020 - 12/10/07 06:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

I would suggest that in the future, if you want to keep a meaningful conversation, you will refrain yourself from psychologically analyzing me,

Yes, it's much better to look at those racy pictures of her.:whacker:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMushroomTrip
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7742028 - 12/10/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I would suggest that in the future, if you want to keep a meaningful conversation, you will refrain yourself from psychologically analyzing me,

Yes, it's much better to look at those racy pictures of her.:whacker:




I didn't know that Dieck  was a she!
That entirely changes the situation. :naughty:


--------------------
:bunny::bunnyhug:
All this time I've loved you
And never known your face
All this time I've missed you
And searched this human race
Here is true peace
Here my heart knows calm
Safe in your soul
Bathed in your sighs

:bunnyhug: :yinyang2:


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushroomTrip]
    #7742035 - 12/10/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago)

Nice try sweetie.:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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