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TheCow
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
#7737062 - 12/09/07 03:12 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Just out of curiosity, where does it say that?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
#7737068 - 12/09/07 03:14 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
TheCow said: Just out of curiosity, where does it say that?
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)
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TheCow
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
#7737084 - 12/09/07 03:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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ha thats funny
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MokshaIs
everywhereeverpresent

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
#7737117 - 12/09/07 03:29 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Then all the mystics and sages shall be stoned!!! And even Jesus himself!! However, Jesus is the son of God, so its ok that he does these "super"natural things. I mean....c'mon...the son...c'mon...
-------------------- in all of Infinite there is but One and it is nOne ever and always in every and all ways
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MokshaIs]
#7737121 - 12/09/07 03:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MokshaIs said: Then all the mystics and sages shall be stoned!!!
Amen.
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krin
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
#7737661 - 12/09/07 06:25 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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The only morality is practiced morality. Whether its induced by chance/chaos/genetic permutations, psychological device called god/his commands/feelings/greaterplan, greater FORCES (somehow a quantification of force magnitude needs to be applied, and a heirarchy (which includes the lowly grade algae symbolic representation, and "man" representation, in all his manicity. that must be influenced by this large force) If it was caused by a survival reflex incited by threats to the creatures soul upon deviation from moral structure, just doesn't change what actually happens, which is the behaviour, the movement and the property of a soul/experience/anything spiritually tangible, bojangle frample frample. Now when a measurement of mind is related bi-partite with a recursive signature 9, without any referencial model to reciprocate the dynamic fluctuation of the central and investable body of man, there is only a byproduct of faith. Now cant we all agree with that?
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7738536 - 12/09/07 09:59 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said: You need to have faith in a Higher Being to justify morality. Why? Because otherwise why choose to be moral?
Your entire point is moot because you assume people have a choice. I think you would have a hard time refuting that, statistically, people who believe in a higher power do not behave any differently than those that do not. If you want to understand why people behave the way they do, then I would suggest studying behavioral and evolutionary psychology.
All morality needs a foundation - an assumption to base itself on - including Biblical morality. You cannot attack secular morality on the grounds that it is baseless without also attacking your own morality, which is just as baseless. You relativist scumbag!
Edited by MushmanTheManic (12/09/07 10:10 PM)
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7738553 - 12/09/07 10:02 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said:
Quote:
Veritas said:
Human communities have been establishing rules of conduct throughout human history. These rules vary by culture, and they are revised over time. They are not really open to technical refutation, as they are widely known, and it is fairly simple to point to what is considered moral by a particular culture at a given point in time.
Again, why should any culture choose to have a morality at all? Why not just choose to define slavery as moral?
The Bible clearly considers slavery to be moral.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7738589 - 12/09/07 10:08 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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(Unless you beat your slave so hard that he loses an eye. Then you must release him.)
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7738621 - 12/09/07 10:20 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said: No God says murder is wrong no matter what.
Does God defy his own morality?
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OrgoneConclusion
Blue Fish Group



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Posts: 45,414
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushmanTheManic]
#7738738 - 12/09/07 10:52 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said: (Unless you beat your slave so hard that he loses an eye. Then you must release him.)
I only beat mine until they require LASIK surgery.
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Dieck
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
#7739134 - 12/10/07 03:06 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I haven't read this full thread but it appears its still being argued over. The reason I'm a highly "moral" atheist, or I'd prefer the term ethical because moral includes nonsense things like blasphemy, is because I treat others the way I would like to be treated. We are social animals, if someone is a douchebag, other people wont like them or someone will put them in their place, which in the end is against their personal interests being fulfilled. in a natural environment, being ethical is in human nature, ultimately helping us survive by being part of a community which we will be helped in our time of need and we help others when they need it. and the reason we're not suppose to be able to go and slaughter our neighbor for their land and possessions is because theres this other drive called revenge, also being counter-productive to ones survival.. How can you be so selfish that you aren't able to empathize without being scared of hell?
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Dieck]
#7739293 - 12/10/07 05:39 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Treat other the way you want to be treated is merely a reflection of your own fears and frustrations. Very similar to those parents who never got to fulfill their dream and now they're riding their children's ass to make things in such a way that they get to do what their parent never accomplished. So this way they hope for some sort of relief by living their dream through their children. This is so pathetic! And what's more, is that this kind of people (parents) are so delusional and are so full of shit, that they begin to truly believe that they're doing the "right" thing for their children. How fucked up is that? 
The same thing goes with those who think that morality really exist, and more to that, that it is sustained by an all mighty god. In my opinion, only a sorry ass can be so deluded to actually think that they should act with morality, and in the same time (their hidden purpose being) hoping that the others will take notes of their good actions and treat them the same. Well kid, it doesn't work this way, and life is constantly proving us that what we like others don't and vice versa. Hence one could easily conclude (if determined to reason) that morality is only an illusion, a symbol for our own frustrations and senilities.  Why would anyone empathize with those who feel scared of hell? Who said that this is the way to go? Will we ever grow the fuck up and stop being so mentally damaged and offended? I think that when all of us will be able to do that, the world will truly be a better place.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Boundless
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7739685 - 12/10/07 09:15 AM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Everyone wants happiness its true.
When we understand this, we do unto others as we would have them do unto us means to give ourselves fully and with love.
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Dieck
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7741592 - 12/10/07 04:53 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
MushroomTrip said: Treat other the way you want to be treated is merely a reflection of your own fears and frustrations. Very similar to those parents who never got to fulfill their dream and now they're riding their children's ass to make things in such a way that they get to do what their parent never accomplished. So this way they hope for some sort of relief by living their dream through their children. This is so pathetic! And what's more, is that this kind of people (parents) are so delusional and are so full of shit, that they begin to truly believe that they're doing the "right" thing for their children. How fucked up is that? 
The same thing goes with those who think that morality really exist, and more to that, that it is sustained by an all mighty god. In my opinion, only a sorry ass can be so deluded to actually think that they should act with morality, and in the same time (their hidden purpose being) hoping that the others will take notes of their good actions and treat them the same. Well kid, it doesn't work this way, and life is constantly proving us that what we like others don't and vice versa. Hence one could easily conclude (if determined to reason) that morality is only an illusion, a symbol for our own frustrations and senilities.  Why would anyone empathize with those who feel scared of hell? Who said that this is the way to go? Will we ever grow the fuck up and stop being so mentally damaged and offended? I think that when all of us will be able to do that, the world will truly be a better place.
I'm not really following your logic.. It isn't that people will treat me the same if they see I act justly, what a selfish way of looking at it.. I treat others with respect because they didn't do anything to deserve otherwise. Most would not treat a person such as yourself with respect though for having such a selfish view of relations, which is probably why you are confused about how the human relations work. Only the unsocialized would choose not to act with values.. If every one in a community acts by the golden rule, then there will be few problems, so we act by that and hope others will also. Theres humans drives and emotions, such as guilt, someone taking revenge against you, not being accepted into a community, which can be viewed as acting ethically for selfish reasons. I guarantee every person who doesn't care about what they do to others suffers from a type of depression or anxiety problem. Again I don't believe in God or an afterlife, but I've learned I'm able to meet my real needs much more effectively by treating others they way I'd like to be treated.
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Dieck]
#7742006 - 12/10/07 06:19 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
I'm not really following your logic.. It isn't that people will treat me the same if they see I act justly, what a selfish way of looking at it.. I treat others with respect because they didn't do anything to deserve otherwise.
No, no, no!  Let's review your previous statement and also a part from your new post:
Quote:
The reason I'm a highly "moral" atheist, or I'd prefer the term ethical because moral includes nonsense things like blasphemy, is because I treat others the way I would like to be treated.
Hmmmm, makes me wonder about who's being confused in expressing their ideas here.
Also let's take a look at:
Quote:
If every one in a community acts by the golden rule, then there will be few problems, so we act by that and hope others will also.
This clearly states a form of needing a guarantee that if you don't harm others, other might consider not harming you too. There's it's black on white, typed by your own hand which was driven by your own ideas. 
Quote:
Most would not treat a person such as yourself with respect though for having such a selfish view of relations, which is probably why you are confused about how the human relations work.
I would suggest that in the future, if you want to keep a meaningful conversation, you will refrain yourself from psychologically analyzing me, and instead focus on the subject that we are discussing. Not to mention that you make only assumption about what I think, since all I did was point out the lack of coherency in your statements.
Quote:
Only the unsocialized would choose not to act with values..
Please define for me "unsocialized". Too many concepts and ramifications to be able to fully know what you're talking about. Submitting to a social standard which goes against your own conclusions about life is called hypocrisy and denotes anxiety, not having the honesty to reject that what you feel as being invalid and meaningless. Making rules for other people to obey them has been proven to fail lamentably. Doesn't it make you wonder? Maybe the entire system in flawed. 
Quote:
If every one in a community acts by the golden rule, then there will be few problems, so we act by that and hope others will also.
What world are you living in?  Tell me exactly, with examples, where this method has been showing signs of working? How do you establish which is the most appropriate golden rule to follow? There are lots of examples of people who choose not to conform to the social standards and somehow they succeed in being the less harmful to those around them.
Quote:
Theres humans drives and emotions, such as guilt, someone taking revenge against you, not being accepted into a community, which can be viewed as acting ethically for selfish reasons.
So does everything else, along with adhering to a social norm. People do it for selfish reasons such as: they don't want to feel and be treated like outcasts, they feel good when some form of authority pets them on the shoulder for being a good citizen, and other stuff like that. How many of these people are actually convinced that, for example, killing or raping is not the best thing to do?
Quote:
I guarantee every person who doesn't care about what they do to others suffers from a type of depression or anxiety problem.
What do you guarantee with?  What's at stake? 
Quote:
Again I don't believe in God or an afterlife, but I've learned I'm able to meet my real needs much more effectively by treating others they way I'd like to be treated.
The key word in this comment is NEEDS. Needs are selfishness manifested. The fact that you think that being moral is the right thing to do is because a majority of people share the same form manifestation of selfishness.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7742020 - 12/10/07 06:22 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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I would suggest that in the future, if you want to keep a meaningful conversation, you will refrain yourself from psychologically analyzing me,
Yes, it's much better to look at those racy pictures of her.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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MushroomTrip
Dr. Teasy Thighs



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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
#7742028 - 12/10/07 06:24 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I would suggest that in the future, if you want to keep a meaningful conversation, you will refrain yourself from psychologically analyzing me,
Yes, it's much better to look at those racy pictures of her.
I didn't know that Dieck was a she! That entirely changes the situation.
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   All this time I've loved you And never known your face All this time I've missed you And searched this human race Here is true peace Here my heart knows calm Safe in your soul Bathed in your sighs
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery



Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: MushroomTrip]
#7742035 - 12/10/07 06:26 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Nice try sweetie.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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