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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736671 - 12/09/07 01:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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The dictionary lists the meanings of words which we, as English-speaking humans, have agreed-upon. It does not contain MY definitions, nor YOUR definitions, nor the Bible's definitions, but the generally agreed-upon definitions of each word.
Just like morality, the meanings of words are culturally-specific, may change over time, and are established to improve our ability to get along and cooperate. It is legitimate because the majority agrees that it is.
I never concluded that murder was moral, I stated that viewing ANY act as either moral or immoral was culturally-specific and changeable.
There is no objective reference point, merely subjective reference points which are shared by the most people. Consensus reality, consensus definitions of words, consensus morality.
And, once again, God has nothing to do with it. A Higher Power is an unnecessary elaboration upon the subject, though you may choose to believe whatever entertains you.
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TheCow
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736675 - 12/09/07 01:30 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Yet in the end God cannot be proved and there is no logical basis for him, so in the end you make a mockery of yourself by believing in morals thought up by humans
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Silversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736678 - 12/09/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said: Personally I find the idea that murder is wrong intuitively true
And yet you support the bloodshed in Iraq, and as far as I can tell, every war the US has ever fought. So clearly you're willing to make exceptions to this.
Quote:
Also your standard entails that there is no way to make a functional society. Your standard would allow any action to be legitimate--murder, rape, theft, etc. So your standard is really no standard at all.
In the Bible, God sanctions murder numerous times:
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
So where exactly does this sanction against murder come from?
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Icelander
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736681 - 12/09/07 01:31 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said:
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Icelander said: For him God is real.
According to you. Nevermind that your standard is contradictory. I mean, if you can say God is real only for me--I can say God is real for everyone. And who is to say who is right or wrong?
In other words-your statement doesn't make any sense. You may as well have written "JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" for all your efforts.
"JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" That's exactly what I said. Quit repeating everything I say dude.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Paleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
#7736692 - 12/09/07 01:35 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Veritas said: The dictionary lists the meanings of words which we, as English-speaking humans, have agreed-upon.
I never agreed to it. And obviously others with a different definition of morality never agreed to it. So what's your point?
Again you are simply admitting that without an objective reference point morality can be 100% made up. And that point of view is absurd. You don't even believe it yourself.
Like I said, if someone murdered your family you wouldn't just say "well in my opinion that was wrong, but in his opinion that was right and we should respect eachother's choices". You'd want the person arrested, because deep down you know that murder is objectively wrong whether you admit it or not.
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TheCow
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736695 - 12/09/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Your half right, Id be angry and probably kill the guy but thats got nothing to do with any objectively wrong business
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Paleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
#7736699 - 12/09/07 01:36 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
TheCow said: Yet in the end God cannot be proved and there is no logical basis for him, so in the end you make a mockery of yourself by believing in morals thought up by humans
No I believe in an objective morality. And that is proven like any other claim--by intuition. Tell me one claim that ultimately isn't proven by intuition? You will search in vain.
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Paleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
#7736705 - 12/09/07 01:37 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: In the Bible, God sanctions murder numerous times:
"Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all – old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple." So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told." (Ezekiel 9:5-7)
While the Israelites were camped at Acacia, some of the men defiled themselves by sleeping with the local Moabite women. These women invited them to attend sacrifices to their gods, and soon the Israelites were feasting with them and worshiping the gods of Moab. Before long Israel was joining in the worship of Baal of Peor, causing the LORD's anger to blaze against his people. The LORD issued the following command to Moses: "Seize all the ringleaders and execute them before the LORD in broad daylight, so his fierce anger will turn away from the people of Israel." So Moses ordered Israel's judges to execute everyone who had joined in worshiping Baal of Peor. Just then one of the Israelite men brought a Midianite woman into the camp, right before the eyes of Moses and all the people, as they were weeping at the entrance of the Tabernacle. When Phinehas son of Eleazar and grandson of Aaron the priest saw this, he jumped up and left the assembly. Then he took a spear and rushed after the man into his tent. Phinehas thrust the spear all the way through the man's body and into the woman's stomach. So the plague against the Israelites was stopped, but not before 24,000 people had died. (Numbers 25:1-9)
A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27)
Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)
So where exactly does this sanction against murder come from?
It's not murder by definition because God sanctions it. He probably had reasons to do so which we cannot comprehend.
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Icelander
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736710 - 12/09/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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No I believe in an objective morality. And that is proven like any other claim--by intuition
 That's a good one. Did you go to high school in Kentucky?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Paleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
#7736713 - 12/09/07 01:39 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
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Paleocon said:
Quote:
Icelander said: For him God is real.
According to you. Nevermind that your standard is contradictory. I mean, if you can say God is real only for me--I can say God is real for everyone. And who is to say who is right or wrong?
In other words-your statement doesn't make any sense. You may as well have written "JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" for all your efforts.
"JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" That's exactly what I said.
"2+2=5. Freedom is slavery. Squares have three sides." Whatever.
All you are proving is just how irrational you are, and the fact that whenever your point of view is questioned you are going to act crazy. And you are right--it's pretty hard to argue with someone who is crazy.
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Icelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736721 - 12/09/07 01:40 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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And you are right--it's pretty hard to argue with someone who is crazy.
There you heard it everyone. I win. He loses. Too bad.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Paleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
#7736724 - 12/09/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: That's a good one. Did you go to high school in Kentucky?
What is math proven by? Axioms--and how do we know axioms are true? Intuition.
What is logic proven by? Axioms. And how do we come to know axioms? Intuition.
All evidence is ultimately intuition and/or sense experience.
Without intuition you have no way to prove one claim over another.
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Silversoul
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736725 - 12/09/07 01:41 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said: No I believe in an objective morality. And that is proven like any other claim--by intuition. Tell me one claim that ultimately isn't proven by intuition? You will search in vain.
So then, it is intuition, not God, which is the source of morality. Glad you agree.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736732 - 12/09/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said: It's not murder by definition because God sanctions it. He probably had reasons to do so which we cannot comprehend.
Then why not be consistent with your faith and kill the next fortune teller you see? Why is Ms. Cleo still alive?
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Paleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
#7736733 - 12/09/07 01:43 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Icelander said: There you heard it everyone. I win. He loses. Too bad.
You just keep telling yourself that. Nevermind that my point of view is completely consistent and logical, whereas you have reduced yourself to square-circles.
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Paleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
#7736737 - 12/09/07 01:44 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
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Paleocon said: It's not murder by definition because God sanctions it. He probably had reasons to do so which we cannot comprehend.
Then why not be consistent with your faith and kill the next fortune teller you see?
Because god is not directly ordering me to. Remember Jesus created a new covenant.
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Icelander
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736740 - 12/09/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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All evidence is ultimately intuition
Guess what my intuition tells me about you?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
#7736744 - 12/09/07 01:45 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Paleocon said: Because god is not directly ordering me to. Remember Jesus created a new covenant.
I see. So God changes his mind, and therefore morality is not consistent and objective.
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Paleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
#7736753 - 12/09/07 01:47 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Paleocon said: No I believe in an objective morality. And that is proven like any other claim--by intuition. Tell me one claim that ultimately isn't proven by intuition? You will search in vain.
So then, it is intuition, not God, which is the source of morality. Glad you agree.
No intuition is how we know right and wrong, but God determines our intuition, and provides the justification for doing what is right.
Without God we can just choose to ignore our intuitive sense of right and/or wrong, and it wouldn't matter.
Also a person's intuition is determined by their genes and environment.
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Paleocon
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
#7736758 - 12/09/07 01:51 PM (16 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said: I see. So God changes his mind, and therefore morality is not consistent and objective.
No, God does not change his mind. Murder by definition is unlawful killing, and God determines the law.
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