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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736434 -

I never said any of the possibilities were wrong. I only offered a reason why they exist without the existence of God. So if society wants no slavery, and no killing based off my last reason where I talked about how this is our only life so theres no reason to ruin peoples only life, then that is fine. Or if they do not then that is also fine

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736443 -

Quote:
Actually no I do believe in a higher power, which is why I choose to be moral. But I'm saying IF I don't, why not just choose to define murdering the weak as moral and be done with it?


Because most people possess some degree of compassion and empathy. If you act morally simply out of fear of the consequences, I would say you are a coward. Compassionate people act morally naturally because they care about others, without fear entering the equation.


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Edited by Silversoul (12/09/07 12:40 PM)

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736452 -

TheCow said:
I never said any of the possibilities were wrong. I only offered a reason why they exist without the existence of God. So if society wants no slavery, and no killing based off my last reason where I talked about how this is our only life so theres no reason to ruin peoples only life, then that is fine. Or if they do not then that is also fine


So you just proved my point, if there is no God, then there is no legitimate morality. There is no reason to choose to murder over not choosing to murder.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736458 -

Silversoul said:
Because most people possess some degree of compassion and empathy.


No, most people choose to be compassionate and empathetic. My question is, why should they?

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736459 -

Huh? I said that if you believe in no afterlife, you might also believe in the sanctity of life as its the ONLY one. Therefore you might want to not kill anyone, or not incite a culture of murder because it will only shorten YOUR own life

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736462 -

I agree.

Here's some interesting reading on moral development:


Quote:
At stage 1 children think of what is right as that which authority says is right. Doing the right thing is obeying authority and avoiding punishment. At stage 2, children are no longer so impressed by any single authority; they see that there are different sides to any issue. Since everything is relative, one is free to pursue one's own interests, although it is often useful to make deals and exchange favors with others.

At stages 3 and 4, young people think as members of the conventional society with its values, norms, and expectations. At stage 3, they emphasize being a good person, which basically means having helpful motives toward people close to one At stage 4, the concern shifts toward obeying laws to maintain society as a whole.

At stages 5 and 6 people are less concerned with maintaining society for it own sake, and more concerned with the principles and values that make for a good society. At stage 5 they emphasize basic rights and the democratic processes that give everyone a say, and at stage 6 they define the principles by which agreement will be most just.


http://faculty.plts.edu/gpence/html/kohlberg.htm

One of my psych professors stated that, in her opinion, few adults progress past the lower levels of moral development.  :eek:

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736463 -

Veritas said:
Some cultures DO define slavery as moral, including the U.S. at one point in history.

I've already said that cultures choose to define morality because it promotes social order and community well-being.


But why not simply choose to define terms like "social order" or "community well-being"? How the heck do you define those in the first place?

Either you need an external reference, or you can choose to define social order/communal well-being any way you want.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736470 -

Paleocon said:
Silversoul said:
Because most people possess some degree of compassion and empathy.


No, most people choose to be compassionate and empathetic. My question is, why should they?


It's not a question of should. They just are, because they are emotionally more developed than other people. It is an adaptation for our survival as a species.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736471 -

TheCow said:
Huh? I said that if you believe in no afterlife, you might also believe in the sanctity of life as its the ONLY one.


That makes no sense at all. My life may be the only one, but that doesn't mean I can't take another life. And presuming it is profitable for me to do so...why shouldn't I? Again you have no legitimate way to argue against this.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736473 -

Paleocon said:
Veritas said:
Some cultures DO define slavery as moral, including the U.S. at one point in history.

I've already said that cultures choose to define morality because it promotes social order and community well-being.


But why not simply choose to define terms like "social order" or "community well-being"? How the heck do you define those in the first place?

Either you need an external reference, or you can choose to define social order/communal well-being any way you want.


Can you not see how we do the same with the will of God?

Assuming morality does come from God, how am I to know what he wants? Slavery was justified on Biblical grounds, so why don't you own slaves? Theologians seem to argue over what is moral just as much as philosophers do. I don't see any side having any sort of objective point of view here.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736474 -

Silversoul said:
Paleocon said:
Silversoul said:
Because most people possess some degree of compassion and empathy.


No, most people choose to be compassionate and empathetic. My question is, why should they?


It's not a question of should. They just are, because they are emotionally more developed than other people. It is an adaptation for our survival as a species.


That is denying the idea that people choose to be who they are, and that denial would undermine the entire legal system.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736479 -

Once again,I am not talking about good/evil. I am only offering up reasons why people might act in certain ways without invoking Gods name. So once again, why dont you explain to me why wolves travel in groups? The wolf god after them?

Edit: In a previous post I merely said that one could kill or one could not. And I offered up basic results of this with no moral judgement involved

Edited by TheCow (12/09/07 12:46 PM)

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736493 -

Quote:
Either you need an external reference, or you can choose to define social order/communal well-being any way you want.



Yes, societies DO choose to define these terms any way they want. The external reference is unnecessary, as these systems of ideas are unique and variable as suits the needs/desires of those who choose to belong to a particular society.

You seem to be asserting (and re-asserting) that morality does not exist without God, but you are ignoring the actual meaning of morality. Just like ANY system of ideas, it will be customized by those who participate in establishing the system.

No, morality is NOT objective. It cannot be firmly established, once and for all, that a particular act is moral or immoral. Societies establish what is moral, and these ideas change as the society changes. Though religious folks often claim that they have the last word on what is right or wrong, religion is just another human-made SYSTEM.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736502 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
Either you need an external reference, or you can choose to define social order/communal well-being any way you want.



Yes, societies DO choose to define these terms any way they want. The external reference is unnecessary, as these systems of ideas are unique and variable as suits the needs/desires of those who choose to belong to a particular society.


But they choose to define such things as needs and desires. So again your argument is moot.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736504 -

TheCow said:
Once again,I am not talking about good/evil. I am only offering up reasons why people might act in certain ways without invoking Gods name. So once again, why dont you explain to me why wolves travel in groups? The wolf god after them?



Because wolves do not have a soul or free will. They operate 100% mechanically and have no sense of subjecivity. Hence they may display the illusion of feelings and morality, but they do not have either.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736507 -

No, it is not. Perhaps you should examine your claims again.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736509 -

Quote:
Because wolves do not have a soul or free will. They operate 100% mechanically and have no sense of subjecivity. Hence they may display the illusion of feelings and morality, but they do not have either.


Prove that the same isn't true of you.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736513 -

Paleocon said:
TheCow said:
Once again,I am not talking about good/evil.  I am only offering up reasons why people might act in certain ways without invoking Gods name.  So once again, why dont you explain to me why wolves travel in groups?  The wolf god after them?



Because wolves do not have a soul or free will. They operate 100% mechanically and have no sense of subjecivity. Hence they may display the illusion of feelings and morality, but they do not have either.


You have no proof that humans have a soul or free will, either.  :shrug:  Nor can you prove that wolves do not.  Humans are animals, just like wolves, and we have adapted in ways which benefit our species.  One of those adaptations is COOPERATION.  It is a selected trait, and our systems of rules help us maintain the benefits of this trait.  Wolves have also adapted to cooperate, as have most mammals.  Their pro-social behaviors have as little to do with God as ours do.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736524 -

Silversoul said:
Quote:
Because wolves do not have a soul or free will. They operate 100% mechanically and have no sense of subjecivity. Hence they may display the illusion of feelings and morality, but they do not have either.


Prove that the same isn't true of you.


I don't have to prove anything. It is a matter of faith.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736540 -

Wrong forum, buddy.  :rolleyes:

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