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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736542 -

Veritas said:
No, it is not. Perhaps you should examine your claims again.


Yes it is. I can choose to desire life or death. I can choose to define elecritricity as a need by the community, or I can choose to define food/water alone as the "need" of a community. I can choose to include maximizing military power at any cost--even mass starvation--as a communal need/desire, or I can choose to define securing my people's freedom/happiness as a communal need/desire.

Again, you are stuck with the same problem no matter how far you put it back. Without something outside of your choices, you have no way to argue that one set of morals is more legitimate then another set of morals.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736544 -

Paleocon said:
I don't have to prove anything.


Then neither do we, and our discussion has reached a stalemate.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736550 -

You can carry on this discussion in M&P, the padded walls will do you nicely

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736555 -

Silversoul said:
Paleocon said:
I don't have to prove anything.


Then neither do we, and our discussion has reached a stalemate.


No because you haven't established your claims. I noted that your argument from wolves was moot, so you idea that morals exist in nature was disproven.

Again, if I can choose to define morality as anything I want--what makes one moral system more true then another?

Its even true with your wolves. Why choose to define the wolves social behavior as moral?

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736556 -

Quote:
Again, you are stuck with the same problem no matter how far you put it back. Without something outside of your choices, you have no way to argue that one set of morals is more legitimate then another set of morals.


I never argued this. Morality is just what groups of humans agree is right or wrong. No God necessary, and lots of variability between groups and over time. It is somewhat arbitrary, though usually reflective of a shared desire to get along & life safely.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736560 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
Again, you are stuck with the same problem no matter how far you put it back. Without something outside of your choices, you have no way to argue that one set of morals is more legitimate then another set of morals.


I never argued this. Morality is just what groups of humans agree is right or wrong. No God necessary, and lots of variability between groups and over time. It is somewhat arbitrary, though usually reflective of a shared desire to get along & life safely.


So you are proving my point. Without a higher power, there is no way to establish one moral system over another. Thanks.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736565 -

Veritas said:
No, it is not. Perhaps you should examine your claims again.


I am carefully examining his clams.



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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736580 -

Who said that we had to establish one moral system over another?  :confused:  Morality exists because humans created it.  It changes because humans change it.  God, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Buddha, the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, etc...have nothing to do with it at all.

You may choose to obey your religion's invented moral code because you believe that God will send you to Hell if you don't.  Fine.  Someone else may believe that the Easter Bunny won't bring them chocolate eggs unless they keep Easter in their heart all year long.  Whatever.

God is not needed for morality because morality is a human invention, just like toasters or underwater cameras.  :shrug:

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736605 -

Veritas said:
Who said that we had to establish one moral system over another?


Well I don't know. Personally I find the idea that murder is wrong intuitively true, and if anyone's beliefs leads me to think otherwise I see it as more legitimate to question their beliefs--over the idea that a pro-murder side is just as legitimate over an anti-murder side. Perhaps that is just me.

Also your standard entails that there is no way to make a functional society. Your standard would allow any action to be legitimate--murder, rape, theft, etc. So your standard is really no standard at all.

That proves my point, 100%, that without a higher power you have no higher moral standard.

Edited by Paleocon (12/09/07 01:13 PM)

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736608 -

For him God is real.:monkeydance:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736610 -

I used to steal until the advent of Jacque Costeau' great invention. :yesnod:


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736612 -


That proves my point, 100%, that without a higher power you have no higher moral standard.

Yeah, he's not listening 100%. So there.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736615 -

Icelander said:
For him God is real.:monkeydance:


According to you. Nevermind that your standard is contradictory. I mean, if you can say God is real only for me--I can say God is real for everyone. And who is to say who is right or wrong?

In other words-your statement doesn't make any sense. You may as well have written "JHHSKLD:SJDOISOJPODJSD" for all your efforts.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736618 -

It is not MY standard, it is the definition of morality.  Religious morals are not the only game in town.  :shrug: 

If you take the time to read over the article I linked to, you might learn a few other ways we might establish a mutually-beneficial system of morality.  The Ten Commandments simply don't work for all of us, sir.

Morality based upon fear of punishment is the FIRST level of moral development...meaning the very LEAST humans are capable of.  I think we can do better.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736629 -

Veritas said:
It is not MY standard, it is the definition of morality.


No its the definition of morality you choose to adhere to. I'm willing to bet I can find a contradictory definition from another source.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Icelander]
    #7736632 -

Icelander said:

That proves my point, 100%, that without a higher power you have no higher moral standard.

Yeah, he's not listening 100%. So there.


LOL. Just because I don't agree with you means I'm not listening now? How convenient.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736634 -

As long as it is a dictionary, and not a religious text, I'm fine with discussing other definitions.  The word means what it means, no matter what the Bible says about it.  :shrug:

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736639 -

It is because we have addressed your points and you do not counter them with new arguments, you just restate your old ones. Debating is not like your religious notion of sex, you have to actually respond to the other person

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736645 -

Veritas said:
As long as it is a dictionary, and not a religious text, I'm fine with discussing other definitions.


And someone chose to put it in the dictionary. What makes that person's choice more legitimate then mine or the Bible's?

It sounds like you are trying to have it both ways. You are trying to say your definition is more legitimate, while refusing to acknowledge an objective reference point.

Again you literally aren't making any sense. And your conclusion that murder can be moral follows as an absurd consequence of your flawed premise.

Either you acknowledge an objective reference point, or you can't say I am wrong no matter what.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736667 -

TheCow said:
It is because we have addressed your points and you do not counter them with new arguments,


You have addressed my points in the sense that you typed down words. You have no addressed my points in the sense that you justified your claims over mine.

Which is sort of the point of my argument. Unless you have an objective point of reference you have no way of justifying a point of view--even as absurd as saying "murder and rape are moral" over an obviously true statement, like "murder is wrong".

Hence your standards and belief systems are 100% irrational and hence worthless.

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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