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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: dshroom]
    #7736282 -

You know where morality really comes from? Compassion. Which is basically understanding the suffering of your fellow human being and wanting to alleviate that suffering. Compassion doesn't come from some stone tablets given to us by a burning bush, and it doesn't come from fearing that some invisible man is going to send you to eternal torment if you don't do what he says. Someone who lacks compassion and empathy is known as a sociopath, and sociopathy does not seem to be determined by whether or not someone is religious. Compassion is a basic human trait that allows us to have a working society.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736284 -

Paleocon said:
Silversoul said:
I answered your fucking questions. Apparently you're just being too dense to comprehend my answers.


Umm where? I asked you how you justify a law against murder if you don't choose to care about your family. What was your answer exactly?


Quote:
If you don't personally care about your family, that's your problem, but most people in society care about their families, and also don't want to be murder victims themselves. Thus, we outlaw murder and pay a special group of people to "serve and protect."



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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736292 -

Silversoul said:
You know where morality really comes from? Compassion. Which is basically understanding the suffering of your fellow human being and wanting to alleviate that suffering. Compassion doesn't come from some stone tablets given to us by a burning bush, and it doesn't come from fearing that some invisible man is going to send you to eternal torment if you don't do what he says. Someone who lacks compassion and empathy is known as a sociopath, and sociopathy does not seem to be determined by whether or not someone is religious. Compassion is a basic human trait that allows us to have a working society.


But why choose to be compassionate? Again you are only side-stepping the issue.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736298 -

Silversoul said:
If you don't personally care about your family, that's your problem, but most people in society care about their families, and also don't want to be murder victims themselves. Thus, we outlaw murder and pay a special group of people to "serve and protect."




That is not justification. You are simply arguing that people care about their family--not if they should or why.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736304 -

Quote:
But why choose to be compassionate? Again you are only side-stepping the issue.


Because it is in our best interest to do so.

Now how about you address the corollary of this: Why choose to follow God?

Quote:
That is not justification. You are simply arguing that people care about their family--not if they should or why.


Because as social animals, it is our nature to care about those closest to us.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736309 -

i think that compassion is a function of morality, not its cause. this has nothing to do with tablets or ideologies but with goodness. regardless of its source i think that kindness and compassion are examples of goodness. practicing kindness and goodness does help it spread but is not its cause. its cause, as far as i can tell is universal in nature and infuses all of reality. what you call it matters not. what you do matters a lot.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: dshroom]
    #7736318 -

dshroom said:
i think that compassion is a function of morality, not its cause. this has nothing to do with tablets or ideologies but with goodness.


But why choose to be good? The only reason is because you think a divine force would reward or punish you. Otherwise why do it? Why not just choose to believe there is no good or bad, and pursue a life of power, wealth and convenience?

Why should the people in power choose to send their police forces out catching some murderer, instead of simply using their military force to further secure their power, or invade another nation?

If I had power over the police, why should I choose to be good towards you at all?

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736334 -

Why do wolves travel in packs? Why don't they tear each other apart constantly, is it because they are afraid of God?

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736336 -

Quote:
Morality
A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct


You are incorrect.  Morality need not be defined in terms of a Higher Power, as it is simply an arbitrary, HUMAN system of ideas. 

These ideas have been defined over thousands of years of human interaction, and their primary purpose appears to be maintaining social order and community well-being.  Some groups may use the idea of a God or Higher Power to add "teeth" to their agreed-upon standards of right & wrong, but this is an addition to morality, and not the basis of these standards.

Quote:
But why choose to be good? The only reason is because you think a divine force would reward or punish you.


This is true if you are a sociopath.  Otherwise, you have many reasons to want to be kind and good.  Mentally-healthy humans are empathic, compassionate and develop deep connections with other humans.  This is our motivation for "being good."  Less-healthy humans may choose to be good in order to get what they want from others (you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours), to continue to be allowed to participate in their culture/community, to protect their reputation, etc...etc...

Your ideas simply do not stand up to examination.  :shrug:

You are correct in your claim that individuals can, to an extent, choose their course of action in life.  Some individuals opt to follow the moral standards of their culture/state/country/group, and others opt to ignore these standards.  What does this have to do with God?  Nada.

Morality is a social tool, and nothing more.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736352 -

Veritas said:
Quote:
Morality
A system of ideas of right and wrong conduct


You are incorrect. Morality need not be defined in terms of a Higher Power, as it is simply an arbitrary, HUMAN system of ideas.

These ideas have been defined over thousands of years of human interaction, and their primary purpose appears to be maintaining social order and community well-being.


But who defines order and community well being? A slave-state, like those of empires before were very orderly. And why choose to care about well being?

Again you are not answering my question, only describing what is occuring. Why should I choose to care about social order and community well-being? Why should I define that as moral instead of, as a social darwinist might-a society that enforces survival of the fittest as its moral code?

The Nazis believed that killing the Jews and confiscating their property help maintain social order and their communal well-being. And the South believed the same about enslaving blacks-and if I choose to define my community as simply White Southerners, or White Germans-couldn't I say they were 100% correct?

Perhaps you are simply not understanding what I am saying. If it is all just choice, I can choose to define anything I want as moral--and you have no way to technically refute me.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736353 -

good question. i am not in fear of punishmanet at all. i receive my reward through blissfulness in the moment. through meditation and huge doses of p cubensis i would say that i have expereinced a well spring of energy that both creates me and flows through me. if i hvae to call it anything i would call it love. an ever deepening fountaion of love. i recognize that most people don't tune into this the way i do, though some do. and i have never met anyone else who does not understand love. nor have i met anyone who can't feel it more. i choose it because the feeling is ecstatic. others choose pain and destruction. i choosde ecstatic love and have no time for the other.

nice to meet you all by the way. i am new here and find lots of topics of interest.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: dshroom]
    #7736358 -

dshroom said:
good question. i am not in fear of punishmanet at all. i receive my reward through blissfulness in the moment.


I can get far more bliss by using money and power to buy coke and hookers. So even then, murdering and stealing are the rational course of action.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736362 -

Paleocon said:
dshroom said:
good question. i am not in fear of punishmanet at all. i receive my reward through blissfulness in the moment.


I can get far more bliss by using money and power to buy coke and hookers. So even then, murdering and stealing are the rational course of action.


Now I see the problem. I've been arguing with a sociopath all along.


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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736370 -

Quote:
If it is all just choice, I can choose to define anything I want as moral--and you have no way to technically refute me.


You may be able to create your own, subjective ideas of what is moral or immoral, but your culture will not necessarily share these ideas.  This STILL does not necessitate the existence/involvement of God or a Higher Power in morality.  :shrug:

Human communities have been establishing rules of conduct throughout human history.  These rules vary by culture, and they are revised over time.  They are not really open to technical refutation, as they are widely known, and it is fairly simple to point to what is considered moral by a particular culture at a given point in time.

Again, how does this require God?

Quote:
The only opinion which allows for any functional morality-that which can allow one to definitely say "murder is immoral"-is one based on some sort of divine commandment. Anything else is nothing more then mere nihilism and subjectivism.


We do not have any "divine commandments," only human claims that such things exist.  Any morality is subjective, but some moralists claim otherwise.

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736377 -

If I assume there is no God, then there is no afterlife and thus I have no fear of retribution of anything I do after I die. Therefore I can either go around killing people or not. These can lead to a few situations, one of which is getting killed myself as I am putting myself in constant danger thus shortening my own life. Or I can kill people and nothing comes of it and I will be happy.

As far as not killing people, this would be because I realize that everyone around me has no other life then the one they are leading. And so I could decide that I do not want to destroy peoples lives. This would be an argument against the Nazi's.

So either you kill people, or you do not, there are reasons for both. However it is to our benefit to get along,this is a logical conclusion that even basic animals have reached. So I do not see where God comes in

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736378 -

different kind of bliss my friend. did i say that anything is rational in this? i prefer p cubvensis to coke. coke is way bad for the teeth.


Edited by dshroom (12/09/07 12:27 PM)

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Silversoul]
    #7736405 -

Silversoul said:
Paleocon said:
dshroom said:
good question. i am not in fear of punishmanet at all. i receive my reward through blissfulness in the moment.


I can get far more bliss by using money and power to buy coke and hookers. So even then, murdering and stealing are the rational course of action.


Now I see the problem. I've been arguing with a sociopath all along.


Actually no I do believe in a higher power, which is why I choose to be moral. But I'm saying IF I don't, why not just choose to define murdering the weak as moral and be done with it? That being the case, do you have any way to technically refute me or do you not?

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Veritas]
    #7736413 -

Veritas said:
Human communities have been establishing rules of conduct throughout human history. These rules vary by culture, and they are revised over time. They are not really open to technical refutation, as they are widely known, and it is fairly simple to point to what is considered moral by a particular culture at a given point in time.




Again, why should any culture choose to have a morality at all? Why not just choose to define slavery as moral?

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: TheCow]
    #7736421 -

TheCow said:
If I assume there is no God, then there is no afterlife and thus I have no fear of retribution of anything I do after I die. Therefore I can either go around killing people or not. These can lead to a few situations, one of which is getting killed myself as I am putting myself in constant danger thus shortening my own life. Or I can kill people and nothing comes of it and I will be happy.



That is just as dictators like those of China and North Korea do. They kill, and nothing comes out of it. And on what basis can you say they are technically wrong?

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Re: Why God (or some Higher Power) is needed for morality [Re: Paleocon]
    #7736429 -

Some cultures DO define slavery as moral, including the U.S. at one point in history.

I've already said that cultures choose to define morality because it promotes social order and community well-being. Individuals voluntarily participate (OR not) in being moral because of the benefits they subjectively assign to continued cultural participation, because of their personal values, because of their emotional connection to other humans, etc...

You may choose to be moral because of your belief that God exists, and that He wants you to be good, but many others do not share your beliefs, and yet still "follow the rules."

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