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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6121980 -

Ravus said:
Experience, state of being and the nature of being conscious do not communicate the other commonly implied aspects of a human spirit or soul- an afterlife, a maker, an ethereal substance behind the physical one.


Exactly.

Quote:
You can change the definition of spirit quite easily as it is not traditionally based in anything concrete...


Actually, "spirit" has many definitions, many of them not referring to an afterlife or a "soul" at all, but rather as the principle of conscious life, animation, aspects of oneself that are not material.... :wink:

Quote:
Whether you like it or not, and I'm sure you do not, religion has its roots in spirituality, its logic in spirituality and its future is invested in spirituality.


I don't really think so, regardless of whether or not I would like to not think so. :grin: Religions is an, abstract, conceptual institution centered around beliefs concerning aspects of reality that are beyond our ability to realize. Spirituality seems to be the awareness of the nature of reality and one's state of being within/as it. :wink:

Quote:
The notions of the spirit created not only by religion but by many individuals is what is harming our planet, so it is not only religion- religion is simply the last clear second before the nuclear explosion.


Spirituality is not congruent with the "soul", which seems to be more representative of what you are referring to.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6122013 -

Perhaps my view on his emotional well-being is colored by his frequent expressions of prejudice against ethnic and gender groups. This brand of irrational and generalized hatred often points to mental/emotional illness, regardless of the other outward presentations of "enjoying a full life."

My take on him is that he very much wanted to enjoy life, but that he (as many, if not all, of us do) often got in his own way.

He certainly proposed many interesting ideas, however, and I examine them separately from his character.

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6122020 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
I have the impression that Crowley had a lust for life and experience. He was an accomplished mountain climber, a chess champion, a novelist, a poet, and a master magician. he was very accomplished in many things. He had a wonderful sense of humor...his claims of being the antichrist, to the press, were examples of this. He was a true trickster. He also wrote a book on drug abuse that is hailed as the master work for drug treatment. His later years were marred by addiction, but all in all I think that he lived a long full life and was basically happy.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley


I am not at all convinced that the way life ends is any indication of life lived as far as the circumstances go. It's more likely the internal experience that counts and no one but the dying person knows that. And dying is dying in the end. Pushing the borders of experience in any direction is entering the unknown and each of us will be their own judge and justification in the end.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (10/01/06 06:14 PM)

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Veritas]
    #6122072 -

"Perhaps my view on his emotional well-being is colored by his frequent expressions of prejudice against ethnic and gender groups."

He was a child of his times as are we all. For instance one of my very favorite writers is H.P. Lovecraft. He was a racist and a xenophobe, but his writing defined the genre. These dysfunctions were social norms in the early 20th century. I do not care for Crowley's work either, but he had some positive qualities and I do not think he was a depressive or sad type, that was my only point.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6122079 -

Hey, Ozzy "wrote" a song about him, so he must be cool. :cool:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Icelander]
    #6122086 -

Icelander said:
Huehuecoyotl said:
I have the impression that Crowley had a lust for life and experience. He was an accomplished mountain climber, a chess champion, a novelist, a poet, and a master magician. he was very accomplished in many things. He had a wonderful sense of humor...his claims of being the antichrist, to the press, were examples of this. He was a true trickster. He also wrote a book on drug abuse that is hailed as the master work for drug treatment. His later years were marred by addiction, but all in all I think that he lived a long full life and was basically happy.
Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleister_Crowley


I am not at all convinced that the way life ends is any indication of life lived as far as the circumstances go. It's more likely the internal experience that counts and no one but the dying person knows that. And dying is dying in the end. Pushing the borders of experience in any direction is entering the unknown and each of us will be their own judge and justification in the end.



"That Don't Make It Junk"

I fought against the bottle,
But I had to do it drunk –
Took my diamond to the pawnshop –
But that don’t make it junk.

I know that I’m forgiven,
But I don’t know how I know
I don’t trust my inner feelings –
Inner feelings come and go.

How come you called me here tonight?
How come you bother
With my heart at all?
You raise me up in grace,
Then you put me in a place,
Where I must fall.

Too late to fix another drink –
The lights are going out –
I’ll listen to the darkness sing –
I know what that’s about.

I tried to love you my way,
But I couldn’t make it hold.
So I closed the Book of Longing
And I do what I am told.

How come you called me here tonight?
How come you bother with my heart at all?
You raise me up in grace,
Then you put me in a place,
Where I must fall.

I fought against the bottle,
But I had to do it drunk –
Took my diamond to the pawnshop –
But that don’t make it junk.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6122094 -

No, I don't think he was depressive.  I said he seemed to have been unhappy.  He expressed his unhappiness through prejudice and anger.  Someone with a different personality structure might have been depressed.

I don't buy the whole "man of his times" line, either.  We either embrace or reject the popular opinions of our times, depending upon our personal values, and he enthusiastically embraced the notion of the inherent inferiority of Jews and women.  These ideas provided a way for him to express his unhappiness.  Perhaps being able to turn his anger outward allowed him to accomplish as much as he did before he escalated to self-destruction.  :shrug:

**Sorry, Ravus.  Last off-topic post from me.  :blush:**

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Veritas]
    #6122131 -

Veritas said:
**Sorry, Ravus.  Last off-topic post from me.  :blush:**


That's unfortunate to hear, because spankings were in order. :naughty:

:grin:

The same would have went for Icelander as well.  :shocked:

:wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6122134 -

:heart:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6122135 -

And back on-topic:  Wishful Thinking!  :wink:

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Veritas]
    #6122139 -

:lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6122205 -

guys and gals you are much too fast for me :lol:

Ravus said:
Is my belief that life is meaningless spiritual?


Yes of, course, as it...
Quote:
How does that concern the human spirit?


...places a meaning (better here a cross bar) in the (belive=not yet proven) spirit-slot.
You are right that it may be an abstract 'idea' of a fantasy, what could be based in reality-based material.
That is, what ratio is concerned about and the way it can develop into this fantasy stuff. That will be rationally explainable.

The other view is simply the way around. If there truly is some 'supernatural', yet undetected cause, perhaps building from certain patterns behind our multiverse, which brings (scientifically yet undetected) condensing points of patterns into beings with higher consciousness ?
That is all.

Quote:
And, more importantly to your statement, how has the idea of a spirit helped humanity? You say we do not need to wipe out the old degenerate idea of a spirit, but I ask you:

Why not?


All the positive fantasy used for exploration of science, of our selves, of future and past, the imaginations of the unrealized but realizable things, all that belongs to big parts to some spiritual realm.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Veritas]
    #6122582 -

"I don't buy the whole "man of his times" line, either"

You don't have to, I gave it for free.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6122590 -

I guess you get what you pay for.  :wink:

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Veritas]
    #6122622 -

ouch. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Veritas]
    #6124824 -

The best things in life are free.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Icelander]
    #6124832 -

Ouch??? Yes...and?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6124845 -

:fishsmack:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: fireworks_god]
    #6124857 -

fireworks_god said:
Ravus said:
Experience, state of being and the nature of being conscious do not communicate the other commonly implied aspects of a human spirit or soul- an afterlife, a maker, an ethereal substance behind the physical one.


Exactly.

Quote:
You can change the definition of spirit quite easily as it is not traditionally based in anything concrete...


Actually, "spirit" has many definitions, many of them not referring to an afterlife or a "soul" at all, but rather as the principle of conscious life, animation, aspects of oneself that are not material.... :wink:

Quote:
Whether you like it or not, and I'm sure you do not, religion has its roots in spirituality, its logic in spirituality and its future is invested in spirituality.


I don't really think so, regardless of whether or not I would like to not think so. :grin: Religions is an, abstract, conceptual institution centered around beliefs concerning aspects of reality that are beyond our ability to realize. Spirituality seems to be the awareness of the nature of reality and one's state of being within/as it. :wink:

Quote:
The notions of the spirit created not only by religion but by many individuals is what is harming our planet, so it is not only religion- religion is simply the last clear second before the nuclear explosion.


Spirituality is not congruent with the "soul", which seems to be more representative of what you are referring to.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


You sure don't like to be wrong.

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Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Icelander]
    #6124871 -

I can trade cliches with the best of them...I can also troll :smile:


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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