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InvisibleJared
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Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit
    #390785 - 09/10/01 11:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

If you blind a man, then deafen him, then take away his sense of smell, then his sense of taste, and his sense of touch. Does he and his old world still exist? His heart still beats, his lungs still breath, his mind still thinks, but what happens to the "Reality" he knew? How could it not still exist, how would he know it still existed? How would he know it was anything, how would he know time with nothing to compare it to. Did everyhtign he knew before actually exist? All he would be, would be thoughts.. The purest form of existance. How real is a reality that can be taken away from us. Respond to this damnit, The idea came to me while working and it totaly blew my mind away, I wanna hear other peoples take on this..

Namaste


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OfflineJunglist
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: Jared]
    #390787 - 09/11/01 12:02 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

wow. i never thought about that. i dont know what to say. i dont have an answer, but thats a really good thing to think about.



1-percent.com Party Excessories



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Anonymous

Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: Jared]
    #390790 - 09/11/01 12:07 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Thats interesting thought, but if the man had those senses before you took them away, he could always relate his thinking to that. What blows my mind even more is someone like hellen keller, she was deaf, dumb, and blind from birth! Through just hand language in the palm of her hand they actually taught her.



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InvisibleJared
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: ]
    #390810 - 09/11/01 12:26 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

He could relate, but if he had no true way of telling time, it would start to have no meaning.. my friends little brother has no time perception. He can't "feel" the difference between 10 hours and 10 minutes.. the concept just doesn't work for him, this is what would happen.. (I think) Wouldn't you start wondering if everythign that happened before was just a dream? Or something, that this was true existance? Would your mind generate a new world for you to live in? Would you live in a dream? Without time? Without time infinity would esit and you would be imortal.. maybe when you die, all that really happens is your senses leave you.. you become but thoughts..

Not from birth, she developed scarlet fever and taht caused her ailments. She actually had learned one word before it happened. "Water" this is the one word her teacher was able to use to get her to learn to speak and to become alive again. Her teacher poured water in her hands over and over, doing to sign for water over and over until she started saying it.. don't remember much more about the story though, grade 5 is kind of hazy..

Namaste


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OfflineHBS
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: Jared]
    #390923 - 09/11/01 02:51 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

interesting idea.

i can't tell time either, though I know that when I wake up in the morning the time from 7:15 to 7:30 goes as fucking slow as an intense trip, and the time from 9:30 - 12:00 at night goes by in minutes

i don't know why this is but it doesn't really bother me. maybe my mind, having just woken up, is not in full force so it perceives time slower and at night it is in full force so it goes super fast

We're all MADD here...


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OfflineBBin
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: Jared]
    #390997 - 09/11/01 07:43 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

"How real is a reality that can be taken away from us."

the 'realness' of reality is quite besides the point, i would say. Whats essential here is that there is something there from which we can draw our experiences, from which we can create our thoughts. Imagine if there was no reality, no 'thingness' there to give shape to forms and form the shapes of emptiness inbetween. What would be our thoughts then? And what meaning would they still have?
I feel that our reality is an illusion, but i also feel that the existance of this illusion is much more important then the feeling that 'its a mere illusion'. It being an illusion does not imply it is without purpose. Psychedelics have taught me that the reality i perceive is just a filtered image of what is really there - or un.there - or under.there - or what.evere - because it shows me that just by changing minute chemical balances in my brain my reality is dramatically effected. Does this mean this altered reality is more thruthfull? no. Does this mean my 'normal' consensus reality is more thruthfull? no. It just means that both are just images of something else which i cannot perceive directly because i perceive it through my sensory perceptions which are in theirselves just filtered frequencies of a spectrum that goes far beyond my farthest imaginations - at this point of my Being.
I do feel that my ability of Thought is in a way my truest sense, because with it i can start to perceive possibilities beyond the scope of frequencies i can currently filter out with my biomechanical machinery, my senses. But i also know that i need my senses to enable my thoughts to be created and that i need the experiences my senses provide to be able to build an ego for myself, with which i can ground my shadowself so i can be fully connected with the light that shines within and throws of the shadow of myself, in order to grow from there into a fully balanced and awakened being in full harmony with the realness of its own existance as such.
'Remember what the white rabbit said... Feed Your Head.. Feed Your Head'

Everything i know, before - after, does it actually exist? Well, yes, its right there where i left it, right? If not, it must be somewhere else, because i created it there. Does my experience of it all really exist? Well, of course, if not, how else would i know they were there to be experienced as such? Does the realness of this experience really exist as an experience i can actually really have? well, if you choose to want to go down that road... i would much rather go Up another and focus on different facets of the realness of my experiences, such as just having the experience of this realness as an experience i can really have as such, so i can have thoughts about it, without having to think about if they are real or not, the thoughts i mean, not the experiences, because my thoughts just told me they were, real that is.
....
See how fast you can nowhere if you travel on thoughts alone? Is it a real nowhere you travel to on these thoughts? Is it a purer form of existance when you are thinking thoughts?

I FEEL it is not. Thoughts are contained by Mind, MInd is contained by reality, Mind trancends reality through Soul. Soul FEELS. Heart enables.


Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing


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Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: Jared]
    #391593 - 09/11/01 09:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

well, dammit i will
people who have 5 senses don't "really know" the world...

how real is a reality if it can be taken away? temporally real. The only eternal thing we experience, is the thing that makes us able to have an experience at all. whether that experience be one of sight or blindness. etc.






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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: Jared]
    #391594 - 09/11/01 09:02 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

well, dammit i will
people who have 5 senses don't "really know" the world...

how real is a reality if it can be taken away? temporally real. The only eternal thing we experience, is the thing that makes us able to have an experience at all. whether that experience be one of sight or blindness. etc.






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  -I'd rather have a frontal lobotomy than a bottle in front of me

CANADIAN CENTER FOR POLICY ALTERNATIVES


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: carbonhoots]
    #391763 - 09/11/01 11:30 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

that reminds me of the Nikeoman Ethics Socraties wrote. It a story of a man striped of all sences will make him insain and eventualy lose all hope for life and die.

GabbaDj

Ok... Just to set the record straight....
I thought the cop was a prostitute.


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GabbaDj

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OfflineMighty Bop
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: GabbaDj]
    #392512 - 09/12/01 06:28 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Ever seen the video "One" by Metallica? Some guy has his arms and legs cut off, has no sight, smell, etc. Basically it shows him going crazy with his thoughts.

For something like this to happen, some sick person would have to be doing this as an experiment. The person would have to be suspended in liquid somehow, with food, water, air and wastes being inserted/extracted with tubes, etc.

This would kinda be like being in an isolation tank. I have started a thread on this Here. Check it out.....



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"One attaineth whatever state of being one thinketh about at the last when relinquishing the body, being ever absorbed in the thought thereof." - Sri Krishna to Arjuna, Bhagavad Gita, viii, 6


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Offlinealuminum_can
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: Jared]
    #393476 - 09/13/01 05:23 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

this reminds me of one of the reasons that aliens have never visited earth. if you took a guy and did all that stuff to him at birth (and also paralyzed him from the neck down) and put him in a dark place alone, and then asked him what a human looked like (i dont know how you would ask him) he would have no clue. this just goes to show that these aliens we here about that have arms legs and eyes dont really exist. i would have to explain more, but this just goes with the post. i think if you did that to someone, they would be more sane than we are!!! they wouldnt have to get along with losers, and they wouldnt have to do all the stupid shit like we do.

one plus one plus one equals three


--------------------
the little kridders of nature; they dont know that thyre ugly!



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InvisibleCherryBomM
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: aluminum_can]
    #394682 - 09/14/01 09:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Jared, I think those people exist. They are all comatose or vegetables.

O~*
*********************************
Freedom's just another word for 'nothing left to lose...' -JJ


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InvisibleIshmael
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Re: Is Consciousness an affect of Perception? [Re: Jared]
    #397930 - 09/19/01 12:42 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I believe (and I may be wrong) that you're asking what the difference between consciousness and perception is; If the two are linked, independent or perhaps even the same. What seems to be the common answer is that perceptions are consciousness, or that they two are so interconnected (as everything is within the human body & world) that they're virtually indistinguishable from one another. But the real problem is that we can't give a concrete answer as to what 'consciousness' actually is. If it is merely the process of being awake then it is merely the accumulation of sensory data through my sensory channels. But if a person had no sensory channels, would he have consciousness?

You take a person who has /never/ had any sensory channel into their brain at any point - no feeling, no sound, no sight, no taste and no smell - do they have the capacity to /imagine/? What is imagination? Isn't it just the process of associating accumulated mental elements in a way that has never been associated before? The linking of things which no one has ever thought to be linked? Isn't an imaginative person someone who can take two things that have no apparent context to one another and combine them so that they produce something which seems natural? If that is the case, then such a non-sensory entity could have no imagination. It would have no mental elements to associate in the first place to produce subsequent constructs, amalgams or interrelations. No bird-headed dieties, no hairy footed pot-bellied hobits or even something as simple as as mundane as a blue duck. It would not be capable of 'creating' an interior 'dream' world because it would have no canvas and no paints.

The mind of the non-sensory entity would be one which would be unable to self-reference (an ability that infants do not gain until they are about 3 on average) or even think (what about?). It would be a mind caught within a perminant state of unescapable meditation. If the normal human mind is characterized as a sea, the waves being thoughts and their troughs being the realm of the meditative - a non-sensory entity would exist within an infinitely placid sea. And an infinitely placid sea has no waves, it would be as plain as a mirror. The non-sensory being would never be able to produce a notion of self-hood for it would have no concept of 'inside' or 'outside' of 'me' or 'you'. It would be egoless, and in all probability, it would be caught in a perpetual state of enlightenment (but then, was it even un-enlightened?). Perfect oneness, perfect void. There would be no sensation of death because the non-sensory being has no concept of pain or pleasure - cannot feel either. There would be no transition. One non-thinking state to another which were always the same.

Now your question was of a person who /was/ normal, but was thrust into a state of non-sensation. What would the world be like to this person? Well, if this person had been alive long enough to produce an ego before the incident in question, he would begin to construct internal worlds, dreams, flights of fancy; acts of imagination. The ego would continue to do what the ego does for all of us, and superimpose itself over reality (which in this case is nothing). To what facility would ego continue to exist? That is hard to say. Most likely though, the new non-sensate would withdraw into some sort of introspective nightmare. If there is any attachment which is hardest for us to come to grips with, it is our attachment to our senses. Sudden loss of them always provokes sensations of despair, fear and terror (even when people report of 'death experiences' they always maintain a perspectivary referece: I saw a tunnel of light, I heard music more beautiful than any on earth, ect ect). That /fear/ would be enough stimulus to cause the ego to project a hellish sequence of thoughts and emotions that would continue unabated (unabated because there would be no sensory input to curb the fear) until the non-sensate came to grips with them all. At that point, with the last sensation of the body (fear) quelled and no other /new/ impulse to cause a new series of thoughts or emotions, the non-sensate would then either become /attached/ to the old fear (it is all I have left - projecting the fear of having lost one's senses back onto the fear itself - causing a feeback loop of fear generating fear) or let it all go and drift off, allowing the ego to dissolve and becoming exactly like the counterpart which I described initially.

And this brings us back to the begining. Consciousness and perception. But does it give us an answer to the original question: What the difference between consciousness and perception?
Let's refine the question. We know that the second person, the one who /became/ non-sensory originally had that element of life we refer to as consciousness as well as that element we refer to as perception. But did he or she loose that element when he or she became non-sensory? And did the initially concieved non-sensate /ever/ have that thing we call consciousness without ever having perception?

I'd rather not expouse my opinions on the matter any further, so I leave you to answer those questions for yourselves. They may be a bit easier to ponder. Or perhaps not at all. But then, any good question always breeds more questions in its answering than it does contement.

Ish



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OfflineOdd_Snail
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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: Jared]
    #397940 - 09/19/01 12:54 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Here is my view. When you take away any one of a man's senses the others will become stronger to compensate. There is someone I know who is blind but he taught himself echo-location, and now he can ride a fucking bike in the park. If you take away two of a man's senses then the other three will become even more increased to compensate. Things won't be the same for him but he will cope. Now I think the because if you were to take away all of 5 of his senses then his brain would create a sixth for him. Now some people say we only use 10% of our brain. They are wrong. We only use our brain to 10% of its full capacity. There is still 90% of it unaccountable for. In the 90% is where I think the other sense would be created, for I believe that it what happened to that blind guy, his brain tapped into the other portion and granted him echo-location.

*I said no to drugs, but they didn't listen.*
*If you are not wasted, then the day is.*




--------------------
Darlene: "Ted, I got you this new nose plug to stop you from snoring at night."
Ted: "Uh yeah, and I got you this paper bag to stop you from looking like James Brown in the Morning."
Darlene: "Oh come now, I don't look anything like James Brown."
Ted: "Hey kids, who does your mom look like in the morning?"
Kids... in unison: "James Brown!"
Darlene, "All right, thats enough... It's poison spaghetti for dinner tonight."


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OfflineBBin
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Re: Is Consciousness an affect of Perception? [Re: Ishmael]
    #398048 - 09/19/01 08:22 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

so, the path towards enlightenment, in the light of what has been said here, is our continuing effort to rise above our (subjective) perceptions, which we do need, but only as a 'something' to be risen above and transcended, and as such, it is in a way the last step before true conscious awakening, which will negate the voidness of nonsensory nonexistance, (re)creating existance as a state of eternal Being instead of our current state of continual Becoming through the perceiving of perceptions.
And all that in a single sentence.. ;p

Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing


--------------------
Thought is born blind but Mind knows what is Seeing


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InvisibleRevelation

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Re: Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit [Re: Jared]
    #398084 - 09/19/01 09:58 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

It would be a pretty shitty existence. At first you would probably be aware of the passage of time by the changing in thought patterns...but eventually that would become meaningless as you would be unable to judge how "quickly" you were thinking your thoughts. I can't say for sure what would happen but I can't imagine that it would be positive, or in any way favourable to our percieved reality. Imagine if this guy was kept alive for, say, 20 years...he would probably be in a constant state of introspective nightmarish insanity. Not nice at all.

If a person was born like this though, I think that it would be very different. It's impossible to say what it would be like but I don't think it would be either positive or negative as he/she would have nothing to compare it to. A baby wouldn't be able to tell the difference between being in the womb or being born, and without external stimulas it would not be able to learn. For all I know it could resemble an infinite time of peace and tranquility, like being in a womb. Not that any of really know how babies think anyway. Perhaps they would be very developed spiritually, and perhaps this existence would be the 4th dimension that humans are possibly evolving into. It could be the ultimate form of existence, the person would not have built up an ego or any kind of personality, they may not even be aware of their own existence. Absolutely impossible to speculate, but it's certainly very interesting.

"Take me on a trip upon your magic swirlin' ship"


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InvisibleIshmael
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Re: Is Consciousness an affect of Perception? [Re: BBin]
    #398147 - 09/19/01 12:41 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Enlightenment is the realization that all things are concretely the same thing, that all rise out of the same 'thing', and that because all exist in one, that nothing exists.

To elaborate: If we were to attribute some sort of consciousness to this unfied 'thing' we would have to come to the conclusion that this 'thing' could have no concept of itself. The only way we become self-aware is through external reference, relating ourselve to the pieces of existence we find around us. This unified 'thing' would be the totality of /all things/. There would be /nothing/ on the outside to reference itself against. And with nothing outside of this thing, it would esentially not exist. The Void that is All.

That may be a bit hard to grasp so let me try it another way. Let us say that the whole of the universe consists of a beachball floating in a realm of non-existant void. The only way that the beach ball exists is if there is an /observer/ who can esentially bring it into existence through independent observation of some sort. It is the koan of the Tree Falling in the Woods and also Einstein's Theory of Relativity. If a tree falls in the woods and there is nothing around to observe it, does the tree exist?

So if all of the universe is this unified 'thing' it can't exist, there is no external observer to essentially bring it into existence... /Unless/ some element /within/ the 'thing' - a piece of it - developes that /percieves/ itself as an individual (ego). Suddenly, the 'thing' fractures and is able to self reference through the individuals within itself. Suddenly the whole 'thing' has become capable of referencing itself and is spontaneously brought into existence. But the existence is based upon, and in fact, totally dependent upon, the independent observer - it does not exist indepedently which is why existence is referered to so often as an 'illusion'. Life would seem to be the process by which the universe is brought into existence. And thus, the point of life would not be to 'transcend' existence, but rather to be mired in the thick of it. Observing as an individual the rest of the whole to maintain existance.

Existence only becomes something to be transcended when the conditions (usually social) start to become intolerable. And that is what we find most often when we talk about transcendant religion - that they develope when social conditions become most intolerable for the people experiencing them. We only find this hope of 'transcendance' among civilized cultures; tribes in which Shamen utilize pychedelics to project themselves into the 'spirit realm' do so to assist the living, to aid existence rather than transcend it.

I should re-iterate in another way: life is not about becoming enlightened. I believe we start life enlightened at birth, are taught to not be so through social indoctrination and then idealize what it is we've forgotten we once had. Life is about living, touching and percieving. Even the process of enlightenment is nothing more than realizing one's relationship to the universe so that you can strip away all of the mental clutter that has made life intolerable and return to the process of doing it. This is an important tennant of buddhism. Once one becomes 'enlightened' one 'returns' to this world - you do not evaporate into some new age 5th dimension, 'evolving' to a higher state of being. You simply become reaquainted with what it is to be alive and the meaning inherent in being - the pure wisdom of simplicity. And in death, with the realization of what being is [(according to buddhism)] one can either free onesself of the encumbrance of existance and allow onesself to withdraw into the void of non existance (popularized as Nirvana), or, return to the illusion and continue to live out other lives (Samsara).

Life carries within itself its own meaning and perhaps that is all we've forgotten. Take it or leave it.

Ish



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InvisibleJared
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Re: Is Consciousness an affect of Perception? [Re: Ishmael]
    #398793 - 09/20/01 03:16 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Where do I begin..? Ishmael this post you gave is incredible.. I can't even write a comparative answer in these late hours. A good simile is a computer with absolute basic ai built into it. With a ultra fast processor, and tons of sensory input. If the comptuer receives no information then it cannot ever begin to "exist" it stays blank and cannot begin taking that around it and using it to develop itself. Makes you wonder what a person really is.. we're nothing more then a compilation of that which we've experienced, how valuable is a human life then? If all it is is a recorded interaction of that which it has observed.. I wish there was a point to this post... =\


Namaste


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Is Consciousness an affect of Perception? [Re: Ishmael]
    #398797 - 09/20/01 03:22 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Creativity isn't just in the eye of the beholder. Left-handies are usually better at actually drawring, beyond that :abstract and what not, I guess there is difference, but its mostly because there are less lefties.

:frown: Time for a cigarette.


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"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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OfflineCACA
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Re: Is Consciousness an affect of Perception? [Re: Ishmael]
    #398799 - 09/20/01 03:24 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Wouldn't it know that it is hungry? When you gave it food, wouldn't it be thankful and dependant on the hand that feeds it and get a "bird-brained" idea of some diety? There are lots of warped mirrors.


:frown: Time for a cigarette.

Edited by CACA on 09/20/01 02:25 AM.

Edited by CACA on 09/20/01 02:33 AM.



--------------------
"I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing." John 15:5


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