Home | Community | Message Board
You are not signed in.
Sign In New Account
Forum Index Search Posts Trusted Vendors Highlights Galleries FAQ User List Chat Store Random Growery

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]
Wishful thinking
    #6115388 -

Spirituality and philosophy can claim to always disprove any perceived truth by demanding more and more evidence until it becomes absurd to even try to answer them any longer. I can demand evidence that the food I'm eating is providing me energy, and for every doctor and scientist who comes along and explains the process reduce it even more until we step outside the realm of knowledge into fantasy, but isn't it clear that to do so is not spontaneous or natural to human logic? Any person who would follow this process clearly has an ulterior motive.

Take, for example, the death of a relative. There will never be enough evidence to satiate the drowning minds of "spiritual" people who constantly claim that they cannot simply be rotting in the ground.

Skeptic: "But during their stay in the hospital, we examined their physical brain and found that their mental conditions corresponded to the images given to us exactly by the technology used."
Drowning man: "That doesn't mean anything!"
Skeptic: "And when we removed a portion of their brain, that corresponded exactly to the loss of function predicted by neurology..."
Drowning man: "But what about their soul?"

Wouldn't it seem absurd if someone kept demanding evidence that by picking up an object and moving it with your hand, that it is the hand doing the moving? We could even attempt to satiate their appetites by showing them the muscles involved, having mathematicians explain the physics involved and even demonstrate on them how they can move an object with their hand. Any logical person would likely consider such a person who rejected such an obvious truth insane or simply trying to annoy everyone around them.

And yet because the false illusions of spirituality require us to repudiate the central role of the brain in a man's personality, thoughts, actions and consciousness, the majority of humans would choose wishful thinking over obvious evidence. How much will it take to prove that the person really is just rotting in the ground and not flying around in some fantastic imaginary astral plane?

However much it takes, the entire universe cannot hold enough evidence to put to rest the feeble denials of a "spiritual" man, because to do so would, in his mind, affirm the nihilistic and ultimately hopeless nature of his mortality.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6115462 -

You answered the question yourself:

However much it takes, the entire universe cannot hold enough evidence to put to rest the feeble denials of a "spiritual" man, because to do so would, in his mind, affirm the nihilistic and ultimately hopeless nature of his mortality.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6115614 -

A spiritual path that denies truth and impedes function is not a true spiritual path, but just more programming and delusion. A spiritual path should be a practical affair that gives reliable and consistant results. Your understanding of what constitutes a "spiritual man" has been warped by religion.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6115829 -

Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: Your understanding of what constitutes a "spiritual man" has been warped by religion.


Indeed, someone who professes belief in some sort of afterlife need not be spiritual. They are more likely buying into the dogma or mythology of an organized religion, which seeks to anesthetize our minds against various truths of reality, in this case, transiency.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6116673 -

I have never met a self-professed spiritual person who would admit that overwhelming evidence (and lack of any other viable theories with even slender shreds of real evidence) shows that our entire reality is composed in the physical brain. They always have to make everything more complicated with ideas of the "soul", the "spirit", an afterlife or reincarnation, etc.

It's like talking to a religious person about evolution. They never seem to do anything but ignore the fossil evidence and misinterpret the process of natural selection.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6116734 -

dont you think also that all too often theories in the name of science are taken for fact?

I find more and more in science that correlation is being mistaken for prima/root cause and effect. Just because you remove a part of someones brain and they lose a part of their personality, or all of it, that doesnt prove that that peice of the brain removed was their actual personality... it merely means that that part of the brain has something to do with personality and isnt neccessarily the part of the brain that creates personality.

Moving an object with your hand is verifiable, and rules out all other possible theories upon the matter... which is why most sane and logical people can agree that you moved Object A with your hand when they directly perceive it.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6116859 -

None of my beliefs conflict with existing science. If science and what is known changes definitively then I will change myself and revise my view. Does this mean that I cannot be spiritual?


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6116890 -

Ravus said:
However much it takes, the entire universe cannot hold enough evidence to put to rest the feeble denials of a "spiritual" man, because to do so would, in his mind, affirm the nihilistic and ultimately hopeless nature of his mortality.


An effective sense of spiritiuality is that of a path that employs conscious thinking and awareness to come to understand the nature of reality. Such a sense would come to embrace the nature of one's mortality, but would include a sense that one's experience is full of value, and is not hopeless.

:mushroom2:

Also, a rare Ravus spotting! :shocked: :cool: Great topic, dude. :thumbup:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :levitate:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6117059 -

Few people will admit they're wrong; it is damaging to their self-concept. Nobody likes to look or feel like a fool. People will usually defend something they believe in even after evidence has been shown to the contrary. How long a belief is defended depends on what value the person places on that particular belief. Certain more trivial beliefs take few objections to overthrow. More important and valued beliefs require much more criticism.

This is all assuming you can get the evidence into their skull in the first place. Confirmation bias, the conscious and unconscious blockage of information contrary to your opinions, plays a huge part in the rigidity of thought. Probably everyone here can remember an argument in which the opposing party "just didn't get" what you were saying.

Those who often concede they're wrong eventually become depressed. For whatever reason, being incorrect about something is very bad for your self-esteem. It may be that our culture places too much importance on being constantly correct. When someone is wrong they may think something similar to, "Well shit, how could I have been so wrong. I must be awfully stupid." Then, being "awfully stupid" translates into being worthless and hopeless. It is also possible that it may have some biological basis. Being motivated to be correct seems like it would aid fitness.

Admitting that your wrong about something like, lets say, the meaning of your life or your entire perception of the cosmos seems as if it would be awfully troublesome. Personally, the transition from a good Christian chum to the nihilistic bastard your reading now was, unfortunately, not much fun. (It is much more fun now.)

Religion and spirituality are the best ego-defense mechanisms mankind has developed. Not only do these belief systems give a person a sense of being 'right', 'correct', 'in the know', etc - it gives them a sense of permanence, importance, and meaning. Trying to convince a person the importance and meaning they believe their life has is wrong ain't gonna be easy!

Edited by MushmanTheManic (09/29/06 10:03 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #6117187 -

please tell me when i am wrong!

Edited by sleepy (09/29/06 10:31 PM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6118232 -

psilocyberin said:
dont you think also that all too often theories in the name of science are taken for fact?


What is the connection between knowledge and truth? We never know if the knowledge we gathered leads to conclusions that are the truth, if such a thing even exists, but there is nothing else to go on. Science reduced to its most basic ideas is simply the gathering of knowledge based on experimental trials or evidence.

I do not claim to know any truths, but I do know that people who go against our acquired knowledge based purely on their imaginary beliefs and dogmatic faith seem to only run away from any logical conclusions. What they go on is not even real, while the knowledge we gather is at least consistent and compatible.

Quote:
I find more and more in science that correlation is being mistaken for prima/root cause and effect. Just because you remove a part of someones brain and they lose a part of their personality, or all of it, that doesnt prove that that peice of the brain removed was their actual personality... it merely means that that part of the brain has something to do with personality and isnt neccessarily the part of the brain that creates personality.


All intelligent philosophers realize correlation does not equal causation, but when you can repeat an experiment and successfully hypothesize the results time and time again, simple "correlation" no longer seems like a viable option. That is the case with neurology and the connection between the mind and the physical brain- every expectation and experiment seems to increase our knowledge in that direction, every time pulling a piece out of that old archaic notion of "vitalism" and a human soul. How many successful trials must there be before people realize that the likelihood of it being simply correlation is impossibly low?

There's not enough trials in the universe.


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6118280 -

You are being as closed minded as the peoople you judge.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6118446 -

How exactly do you propose we combine acquired knowledge and "open-mindedness" into one perfect entity? I don't see anything close-minded about my statements; if people espousing an afterlife could give us trials to test out their theory of vitalism, or some evidence of a human soul, then I would surely research that to its fullest with no bias at all. But to date I have found nothing even close to reliable, reproducible evidence, and the best they come up with is accusations of "close-mindedness".


--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6118482 -

Being spiritual does not have anything to do with an afterlife. Being spiritual has nothing to do with accepting primitive mythologies. You seem to think that these low grade ideas are the sum total of being "spiritual". This is why I made the statement. Of course I know many Christian fundamentalists who claim to be open minded...lol. You are just another sort of fundamentalist.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6118619 -

im not arguing with the science, or the accuracy of a real scientific hypothesis, but i think all too often the theories which are supported by these experiments are considered "proven".

For example, I can have a certain theory about the way the brain works, which isn't neccessarily directly testable by science, but is nonetheless bolstered by every neurological experiment done thus far, yet the modern theory that "you are a brain" is the most popular and sadly taken as "scientifically proven".... when the two theories are placed side by side, and examined with respect to neurological studies, one has no more weight than the other one.

I am not diagreeing with the premise of this topic, and maybe I have pulled it off topic somewhat, I was merely responding to a part of your post I felt I needed to respond to.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #6118673 -

psilocyberin said:
...and maybe I have pulled it off topic somewhat...


:ban:




:lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Ravus]
    #6120993 -

I think that it is more accurate (and leaves more "wiggle room") to say that a neurological basis for human consciousness is scientifically supported, whereas a spiritual basis is not.

Science is an excellent tool for testing and measuring physical reality. It is not applicable to testing and measuring the possibility of non-physical reality.

I've played with an idea for translating the scientific method into a method for exploring the existence of a non-physical reality:

Spiritual Method

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #6121007 -

Huehuecoyotl said:
A spiritual path that denies truth and impedes function is not a true spiritual path, but just more programming and delusion. A spiritual path should be a practical affair that gives reliable and consistant results. Your understanding of what constitutes a "spiritual man" has been warped by religion.


:thumbup: Zactly. I consider myself spiritual in the max. Yet here I am lumped in with the skeptics. :tongue:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: Icelander]
    #6121066 -

Many just don't get your humor. It sometimes can become a bit ... :flowers:

veritas, you know I :heart: 'this' spiritual method :wink:

Just these days, Jürgen Drewermann, an ex-priest attacked the vatikan again with the age old argument that there is no soul, for science it is not necessary to find or have a soul. It (personality, reflective thinking, identity, ...) all is describable within the realms of science, but in the same breath he says, that this does not exclude a 'soul', but he wants to see god again in an more 'infiltrative' state, not as exclusive, who has to hide from science and has to fear science by hiding from :lol:
How right he is :wink:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'

Edited by BlueCoyote (10/01/06 11:46 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Wishful thinking [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #6121080 -

It's often not humor. I refuse to go along with a belief system that has no basis in my physical reality. Not that I feel compelled to judge someones subjective spiritual beliefs; UNLESS they want to tell me it is the ONE truth, and true for all. Then they need to prove it.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 |  [ show all ]

Shop: Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* God Exists
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 Zahid 12,581 113 03/18/03 03:57 PM
by falcon
* What i think...
( 1 2 all )		 Droz 2,200 28 07/12/02 10:14 AM
by Sclorch
* Are you a slave to a God that doesn't exist?
( 1 2 3 all )		 Larrythescaryrex 8,091 42 07/30/02 04:00 PM
by Larrythescaryrex
* Do Basic Human Morals Exist
( 1 2 all )		 mrfreedom 5,496 24 05/28/02 07:55 AM
by Sclorch
* Can't think of a good title, just read this damnit
( 1 2 all )		 Jared 4,364 22 09/20/01 05:19 PM
by Jared
* Does God Exist? part one
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 all )		 MentalHygene 17,015 126 02/22/02 08:26 PM
by ArCh_TemPlaR
* Contact Experiment
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 all )		 ShroomismM 14,055 106 09/15/02 09:08 PM
by Swami
* Touching the other side... (profound experience)
( 1 2 all )		 Olgualion 5,343 36 02/26/02 07:23 AM
by Learyfan

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
3,857 topic views. 2 members, 1,090 guests and 50 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2026 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.029 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 16 queries.