Home | Community | Message Board


World Seed Supply
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Easter - which is more likely?
    #3974810 - 03/27/05 02:01 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Let's apply Occam's Razor to the Easter myth.

Which is more likely?

1. A man rose from the dead and rolled away a stone barring the tomb.

2. Jesus' disciples feared that his body would be desecrated, so moved it to a secret location.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3974817 - 03/27/05 02:05 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

3. The story began as a metaphor for ego transcendence, but it has been perverted over the years by halfwits and megalomaniacs.


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineLux
member
Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 189
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3974821 - 03/27/05 02:06 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

3. It was a metaphor.

Not that I'm saying it was or wasn't, I have no way of knowing obviously, but I believe it's just as likely as either of those. A metaphorical, if not ritualistic concept of death and re-birth is in fact fairly common in many spiritual beliefs.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,329
Loc: On the Border
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3974836 - 03/27/05 02:12 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

WTF...I thought it was about rabbits who give out eggs...
Seriously, though, many mythological characters have undergone the "threefold death". This is hanging (crucifiction), being stabbed, and poisoned. Odin did it. The Celtic god Lugh underwent the same treatment, as well as Myrddin Emrys, the character on whom Merlin was based. Ressurection always follows such a death. This is one incarnation of the hero myth. It is nothing original to Jesus.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3974876 - 03/27/05 02:27 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Are you saying that after my untimely demise, Swami will be resurrected here in one form or another?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3974914 - 03/27/05 02:40 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I've wasted my entire life...

I'm off the find the body of Christ
entombed within the living
it might get messy


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
Stranger
Male User Gallery

Registered: 06/14/04
Posts: 10,329
Loc: On the Border
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3974918 - 03/27/05 02:42 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

If you are a mythological character then that is a good possibility.


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3974937 - 03/27/05 02:52 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Read "The Passover Plot," by Hugh J. Schonfield. He has an interesting theory on this.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Cat-a-pult, Pingu Slap

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Silversoul]
    #3975076 - 03/27/05 04:13 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

number two: but then why keep up the whole he resurrected bit? ahh..just like coca-cola,nike,fird, etc.

they gotta sell "jesus" even if he's dead but then if he's fead how can they profit? HE RESURRECTED AND IS STILL ALIVE FOLKS! come and listen to "us" teach!! yadayada......just another fuckin' capitalist plan to take over the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

"i am sorry. i didn't mean any of it."

i in no way intended to hurt the feelings of jews or christians or catholics or athiest even!

just words.i mean no harm.


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineZekebomb
sociophagus

Registered: 08/24/03
Posts: 1,164
Loc: BC province
Last seen: 9 years, 2 months
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3975130 - 03/27/05 04:34 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Let's apply Occam's Razor to the Easter myth.

nah, let's apply a straight razor.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Cat-a-pult, Pingu Slap

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Zekebomb]
    #3975161 - 03/27/05 04:49 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Zekebomb said:
Let's apply Occam's Razor to the Easter myth.

nah, let's apply a straight razor.




:smirk:


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineOldWoodSpecter
waiting
Male

Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 10 years, 2 months
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3975176 - 03/27/05 05:16 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
Let's apply Occam's Razor to the Easter myth.

Which is more likely?

1. A man rose from the dead and rolled away a stone barring the tomb.

2. Jesus' disciples feared that his body would be desecrated, so moved it to a secret location.




If he was a simple man, than second,
but in the bible he was not a simple man, so in the context of bible, first


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 19,702
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3975271 - 03/27/05 07:42 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

the egg


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineegghead1
Nakedly Open

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 931
Loc: The Womb of Love
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3975336 - 03/27/05 08:40 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

:egg:


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinehobgoblin
Stranger
Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 50
Last seen: 11 years, 4 months
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3975350 - 03/27/05 09:01 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I fail to see what's so objectionable about the story of a man who was
grossly misunderstood and then brutally murdered by a bloodthirsty mob
only to have the peace-loving ideals upon which he based his life live
on after him.

The tale is older than time.


--------------------
Seek not to rationalize hobgoblins. ~ Yeats


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
Male User Gallery

Registered: 09/11/04
Posts: 10,866
Loc: I re·side [primarily] in...
Last seen: 2 months, 3 days
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Swami]
    #3975444 - 03/27/05 10:06 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

jesus is pinned up on the cross with all his disciples around him he's getting pretty close to death, and looking a bit worse for wear he raises his head and all his disciples look up in are expecting one final lesson. Jesus opens his mouth and says
don't eat my easter eggs you b4stards, I'll be back on sunday.


--------------------


--------------------
Disclaimer!?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinefivepointer
newbie
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 1,428
Last seen: 1 month, 1 day
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: Gomp]
    #3975482 - 03/27/05 10:29 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

"Let's apply Occam's Razor to the Easter myth."

"Which is more likely?"
"1. A man rose from the dead and rolled away a stone barring the tomb."

Actually an angel rolled the stone away "..for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it...".


"2. Jesus' disciples feared that his body would be desecrated, so moved it to a secret location."

Pilate was fully aware of this and set a watch to prevent this from happening.

Matthew 27:59 - 28:9
59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.
61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre.
62 Now the next day, that followed the day of the preparation, the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate,
63 Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.
64 Command therefore that the sepulchre be made sure until the third day, lest his disciples come by night, and steal him away, and say unto the people, He is risen from the dead: so the last error shall be worse than the first.
65 Pilate said unto them, Ye have a watch: go your way, make it as sure as ye can.
66 So they went, and made the sepulchre sure, sealing the stone, and setting a watch.
1 ? In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
6 He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
7 And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
8 And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.


The doctrine of the resurrection is fully defended in 1 Corinthians 15. Below is an excerpt from John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible, which I totally agree with.


The apostle, in this chapter, recommends the Gospel, and gives a summary of it, proves the resurrection of Christ, and by various arguments establishes the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead, and answers objections made unto it. He also sets forth the glory there will be upon the bodies of risen saints, and the change that will be made on living ones; and concludes with an exhortation to perseverance in faith and holiness. As his chief view is the doctrine of the resurrection, he introduces this by recommending the Gospel in general, or by observing that this is a principal doctrine which should be remembered and retained, because it was the Gospel which he had preached, and they had received, and had hitherto persevered in, 1Co 15:1 and besides was essential to salvation, and the means of it, by which they would be saved, if they retained it, except their faith in it was in vain, as it would be should they drop it, 1Co 15:2. And moreover, the apostle had received it by divine revelation, and had faithfully delivered it to them, and therefore it became them to hold it fast; the sum of which were the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, agreeably to the Scriptures of the Old Testament, 1Co 15:3 and then he reckons up the eyewitnesses of the latter, as first Peter, then the twelve disciples, then five hundred brethren at one time; next James, and all the apostles; and last of all himself, 1Co 15:5 of whom he speaks in a very diminishing style, describing himself as an abortive, affirming himself to be the least of the apostles, and unworthy to be in that office, or bear that name, giving this as a reason for it, because he had been a persecutor of the church of Christ, 1Co 15:9 wherefore he ascribes the dignity he was raised to entirely to the free grace of God; and yet he magnifies his office, and observes, that the gifts of grace bestowed upon him were not in vain, and that he was a more abundant labourer than the rest of the apostles, and had more success; but then he freely declares that all he had, and all he did, were by the grace of God, 1Co 15:10. But however, not to insist upon the difference between him and other apostles; he observes, that the subject matter of their ministry was the same, namely, a suffering and risen Saviour, and who was also the object of the faith of the believing Corinthians, 1Co 15:11 wherefore the apostle proceeds to blame some among them for denying the doctrine of the resurrection from the dead, seeing it was a principal part of the ministry of the Gospel, that Christ was risen from the dead, 1Co 15:12 whereas that would not be true, if there is no resurrection of the dead, 1Co 15:13 but that Christ is risen, is not only evident from the testimonies of eyewitnesses before produced, but from the absurdities that follow upon a denial of it, as that the preaching of the Gospel was a vain thing, and faith in it also, 1Co 15:14 yea, the apostles would be no other than false witnesses of God, testifying that he raised up Christ, when he is not risen, if the dead rise not, 1Co 15:15 which argument is repeated, 1Co 15:16 and other absurdities following such an hypothesis are added; as besides what was before mentioned, that faith becomes hereby a vain thing, such as have believed in him must be in an unregenerate state, and both under the power and guilt of sin, 1Co 15:17 nay, not only so, but such who are dead in Christ, or for his sake are lost and perished, 1Co 15:18 and even those of the saints who are alive must be the most unhappy and miserable of all mortals, 1Co 15:19. But inasmuch as it is a certain point that Christ is risen, it is as clear a case that the saints will rise, which is argued from Christ being the firstfruits of those that are fallen asleep in him, which secures their resurrection to them, 1Co 15:20 and from his being their covenant head, as Adam was to his posterity; so that as all his offspring died in him, all the saints will be quickened by Christ, death coming by the one, and the resurrection by the other, 1Co 15:21. And whereas it might be objected, if this is the case, why did not the saints, who were dead before the resurrection of Christ, rise from the dead when he did, or quickly after? To which it is answered, there is an order observed agreeable to the firstfruits and lump: Christ, the firstfruits, is first, and then they that believe in him, 1Co 15:23 and this will not be until the second coming of Christ, and the end of all things, when all the elect of God shall be gathered in; and then they will be raised and presented to the Father complete in soul and body, and all rule and authority among men will cease, 1Co 15:24. But in the mean while Christ must reign until all enemies are subject to him, and the last of all that will be destroyed by him is death; which is another argument proving the resurrection of the dead; for if death is destroyed, the dead must rise, and never die more, 1Co 15:25 That all things will be put under the feet of Christ, every enemy, and so death, is proved from a testimony out of Ps 8:6. But to prevent a cavil, and secure the honour of God the Father, he is excepted from being subject to him, 1Co 15:27 so far is he from being so, that the Son shall be subject to him, and appear to be so as Mediator, by giving up the account of things to him; the end of which is, that God, Father, Son, and Spirit, may be all in all, 1Co 15:28. The resurrection of the dead is further argued from the sufferings of the saints and martyrs of Jesus, for the sake of him and his Gospel, and particularly this doctrine of it, which are first figuratively expressed under the notion of a baptism, 1Co 15:29 and then more literally and clearly signified by being in jeopardy, and exposed to danger of life continually, 1Co 15:30 and which is exemplified in the case of the apostle himself, who was liable to death daily, 1Co 15:31 of which he gives a particular instance in his fighting with beasts at Ephesus. Moreover, another absurdity would follow upon this, should this doctrine not be true; and that is, that a loose and licentious life, such an one as the Epicureans live, would be encouraged hereby, 1Co 15:32 from which the apostle dissuades; partly from the pernicious effect of it, which he shows by a passage cited out of one of the Heathens, 1Co 15:33 and partly from its being contrary to a righteous conversation, and from the stupidity, sinfulness, and ignorance, which such a course of life, upon such principles, declares, 1Co 15:34. And then the apostle proceeds to answer questions, and remove objections relating to the resurrection of the dead; which questions and objections are put, 1Co 15:35 which suppose the thing to be impossible and absurd, and to which answers are returned, first by observing, that grain which is sown in the earth first dies before it is quickened, and that it does not rise up bare grain as it was sown, but in a different form and shape, with additional circumstances greatly to its advantage; and has a body given by the power, and according to the pleasure of God, and suitable to the nature of the seed; by which is suggested, that in like manner the body first dies, and then is raised;, and though the same body, yet it is raised in a different form with different qualities, by the power, and according to the will of God; and therefore seeing there are every year such innumerable instances in nature, of dead and putrefied grain being revived, it need not be thought incredible, impracticable, and absurd, that God should raise the dead, 1Co 15:36 and that the body, though the same shall rise different from what it was when laid in the grave, is illustrated by the difference of flesh in men, beasts, fishes, and birds; which, though all of it flesh, differs from each other; and so will the flesh of the body, in the resurrection, differ from the flesh it is now clothed with, 1Co 15:39. And the same is further illustrated by the difference there is in the heavenly and earthly bodies, in the sun, and moon, and stars, and in one star from another; all which have respect to the same, showing not any difference there will be in risen bodies among themselves, but in risen bodies from what they now are, 1Co 15:40 as appears by the accommodation of these similes to the resurrection of the dead; and which differences are clearly expressed, the present bodies being corrupt, dishonourable, weak, and natural, the risen ones being incorruptible, glorious, powerful, and spiritual, 1Co 15:42. And that the risen bodies will be spiritual, the apostle proves, by comparing Adam and Christ together; the one had a natural body, the other had a spiritual body after his resurrection, 1Co 15:45 the order of which is given, the natural body of Adam was before the spiritual body of Christ, 1Co 15:46. Their original is also taken notice of, the one being of the earth, the other front heaven, 1Co 15:47 and so accordingly the offspring of the one, and of the other, are different; the offspring of the first Adam are earthly like him, and have a natural body, as he had; the offspring of the second Adam are heavenly, as he was, and will have a body like to his; for as they bear the image of the first man, from whom they naturally descend, by having a natural body like to his, so they must bear the image of the second man, the Lord from heaven, by having a spiritual body fashioned like to his glorious body, 1Co 15:48. And there is an absolute necessity for this, seeing bodies, in their present state, and case, as natural, mortal, and sinful, cannot be admitted into the possession of the kingdom and glory of the Lord, 1Co 15:50 but inasmuch as all will not die, and so be raised again, but some will be alive at the coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead, a difficulty arises how the living saints will come by spiritual bodies, in order to inherit the kingdom of God, without which they cannot inherit it: this difficulty the apostle removes, by making known a secret never divulged before, that at the same time the dead will be raised, which will be at the sounding of a trumpet; in a moment, at once the living saints will be changed, and become immortal and incorruptible, as the raised ones, 1Co 15:51 for so it must be that these corruptible and mortal bodies be clothed with incorruption and immortality, either by the resurrection of them, or a change upon them, when either way they will become spiritual, 1Co 15:53. And hereby some prophecies in Isaiah and Hoses will have their accomplishment, 1Co 15:54 on the mention of which, some things in them are explained, as that sin is the sting of death, and the law is the strength of sin, which regard the prophecy in Hosea, 1Co 15:56 and the victory obtained over death, which is mentioned in the prophecy of Isaiah, is ascribed to God, who gives it through Christ, to whom thanks are returned for it, 1Co 15:57. And the chapter is concluded with an exhortation steadfastly to abide by the cause of Christ, and in his service; to which the saints are encouraged from this consideration, that they will find their account in it, 1Co 15:58.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisibleuriahchase
Skinny White Boy
Male User Gallery Arcade Champion: Cat-a-pult, Pingu Slap

Registered: 09/25/04
Posts: 675
Loc: SoCal
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: fivepointer]
    #3975537 - 03/27/05 10:59 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

don't eat my easter eggs you bastards, I'll be back on sunday.

jesus' last words.


--------------------
Wanting to be someone else is a waste of the person you are -Kurt Cobain
       



     
Hotter than the left sink handle.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: hobgoblin]
    #3975569 - 03/27/05 11:24 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

I fail to see what's so objectionable...

Is this how the Easter myth got started? Where kind sir, did I EVEN VAGUELY hint that the story was objectionable? Do you often see things not there?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: Easter - which is more likely? [Re: fivepointer]
    #3975575 - 03/27/05 11:29 AM (11 years, 8 months ago)

Actually an angel rolled the stone away "..for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it...".

So any words written down on paper are automatically true?  :rolleyes:

*Swami goes back to reading "Moby Dick"*


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Occam's Razor
( 1 2 3 4 all )
TrippinNinjaBuddha 3,582 67 11/05/06 03:07 PM
by BlueCoyote
* Why do we trust Occam's Razor?
( 1 2 all )
deCypher 2,130 34 01/07/09 12:31 PM
by Noteworthy
* Occam's Razor
( 1 2 all )
Swami 2,154 31 03/12/02 07:22 PM
by Swami
* Occam's Razor theory vs Anti-Razor theory kotik 1,369 9 10/30/05 10:08 PM
by Zephid
* Occam's Spoon. Phluck 1,303 16 08/04/06 09:36 AM
by Darcho
* Easter or Ishtar? MarkostheGnostic 982 5 04/07/07 06:42 PM
by Silversoul
* Does the Easter Bunny hate religious zealots? Veritas 854 4 10/10/06 10:05 PM
by Veritas
* Easter Bunny
( 1 2 3 all )
MushroomTrip 2,165 43 04/09/07 06:11 PM
by Clean

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, CosmicJoke, Diploid, DividedQuantum
2,035 topic views. 0 members, 6 guests and 6 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Sporeworks
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2016 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.123 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 16 queries.